No contact rule

[axa]

I have been thinking a lot about the No contact rule with Ns, which imo is the only way to go.  I had some strange sense of deprevation with regard to the No Contact as if it was some sort of RULE that I had to obey for my own good.......... really brought up a lot of stuff about my Catholic childhood and all the rules. 

The other evening it something came to me in with regard the No Contact Rule.  I see it as I have so much I can share with others, my sense of fun, my love, my dreams, hopes, flaws, vulnerability, anger, imperfection, creativity............. but I now choose not to share any of these with XN or any other N I have known in my life.  It is not a rule as in a rigid demand from outside but a free choice I am making to give of me to those I choose.  I have no sense of being deprived but feel like I am not interested in giving away what is precious to me, warts and all, to anyone I do not value.  Funny how different the world can look when we shift perspective.  Just wanted to share that.

He! how said I was gone, won't get rid of me that easily!!

Axa

[Portia]

Hi Axa

interesting...I understand that NC is necessary at some stage(s?) ....but.. well: it's still about power in some way and "the only power is no power".

I agree that NC can be yet another rule, one that we may beat ourslves up with in some way.

Yes it's a free choice. But giving away what it precious...I hesitated when I read there....because: if it is You, how do you give You away? Isn't this still about power/control in some way?

I do agree about 'giving' to those who cannot receive (it seems pointless to bang your head against a brick wall, and it feels bad if you expect to be valued for giving and you don't think you are valued...) ..but.. well: I guess I value myself and I can give away without it costing me anything. Does that make sense? I can give and not be depleted, even when gifts are misunderstood or thown back or ignored or whatever. Why would another's response deplete me if I have no attachment to any outcome? Unless the attachment is to examining my response to theirs!

Glad you're not gone (because who would want to get rid of you?)

[isittoolate]

NC The only way to go

I found that it distanced me from the abuse, slowly but surely, and now I cannot even remember what kind of charm he threw at me in the beginning, as that wasn't even a person.

For newbies at NC, it just takes patience and a couple of years to forget, stop obsessing, etc. and it shows, OH so much strength to stick to it!

Izzy

[Lupita]

Axa, if it helps, I am thinking the same way. Just allow healthy friends in my life. Thinking of cutting off any N from my life. Work on my boundaries, define them. If I have to go NC, I will. Not in an obvious way. I will still e mail my family but it will be just about the weather, always trying to avoid their visits. And with respect of friends, same way. I will not tell my friend P that I do not want to be with her, but I will excuse my self everytime she wants me to drive her around.
In a way that is NC. Thanks for posting about this. It hurst to think about NC but it is the only way.

[lighter]

It's funny but this thread made me realize that.....

after months of NC with N...


I believe I'd have to enter back into the same old unbearable relationship, if I went back to him.  

For some reason, I can't picture me overcoming..... at all.  

Even with what I know noiw.

 I can't see being OK, not for just one day.  ::shaking head::

Don't I think I could just go about my life and do my own thing?  

Keep him distanced and removed?

Why no.... no I don't.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lighter,

From my experience with N, he will not allow his target to simply do her own thing.

It's impossible... I tried. He wouldn't have it. If some issue isn't being forced at the moment, he's just not satisfied...

there must be suffering, at any cost, in the world of NPD.

Love,
Hope

[axa]

Hi Portia,

CAn I work through your reply please,

interesting...I understand that NC is necessary at some stage(s?)



....but.. well: it's still about power in some way and "the only power is no power".

Not sure exactly what you mean by "the only power is no power".  Do you mean that when I feel nothing, have no reaction that is the time when there will not be any power between XN and I.  If so, I would like to say how I see it.  I want nothing to do with him simply because I see him as evil.  I choose not to engage with abusive people whether it is XN or any other abusive person.  I think I was trying to say that my desire for No Contact with XN does not come from a place of vulnerability any longer but from a place of strength and is tied up with boundaries.

I agree that NC can be yet another rule, one that we may beat ourslves up with in some way.

I am very grateful for the NC rule.  It helped me save myself.  I was tempted a few times to make contact to rage at him after one of his attempts to have contact with me but I discovered my silence was the most powerful thing of all.......... have heard nothing for two months now and feel like I wont again but then one never knows with an N.  I guess the NC rule also means that the N eventually gets the message that there is no supply here so he will get bored and give up on me.

Yes it's a free choice. But giving away what it precious...I hesitated when I read there....because: if it is You, how do you give You away? Isn't this still about power/control in some way?

By giving away I mean something like I choose to share something with you, with XN I choose to share my love etc I now choose to share nothing with him.  Not my time, voice etc.  I wonder if giving me away I mean not having healthy boundaries...........NC feels like healthy boundary.  Bit like not sticking my hand into the pot of boiling water because i know it will burn me.  It was not so long ago, only 7 months I was still sticking my hand into the pot!!!!!!!!!

I do agree about 'giving' to those who cannot receive (it seems pointless to bang your head against a brick wall, and it feels bad if you expect to be valued for giving and you don't think you are valued...) ..but.. well: I guess I value myself and I can give away without it costing me anything. Does that make sense? I can give and not be depleted, even when gifts are misunderstood or thown back or ignored or whatever. Why would another's response deplete me if I have no attachment to any outcome? Unless the attachment is to examining my response to theirs!


I envy you and am working towards giving without attachment.  I seem to be able to do this without too much difficulty in my life except when it came to XN.  But I do think that when in a relationship with someone there is an expectation that ones kindness/love will be reciprocated.  I do believe that the healthiest way to live is to give without attachment or expectation.  I get confused when it comes to relationships as I do not understand the role of commitment in this context.  Maybe there is no such thing as commitment? Don;t know really.
Glad you're not gone (because who would want to get rid of you?)
[/quote]

Thanks for saying that Portia and thanks for the challenge.  I do struggle with giving in relationships and not being solid enough in myself.............ah the hard work continues.

axa

[axa]

Lighter,

SAme experience also, tried to be my own person but the punishment was so constant and undermining I gave up on so much that I withdrew and lost most of my sense of self....... but thankfully not all.  I guess it was like trying to have a conversation which was very important, with someone who did not speak the same language or came from a similiar culture as me........ it was just impossible.  I know that nothing has changed for him, so it would be the same old story.  Guess that is why I choose the NC rule because I was BORED RIGID, exhausted and finally got the message...... banging my head off this stupid wall really does hurt.

Lup and Izz

Right on ............. do know that in time everything passes.

Thanks

axa

[Bella_French]

Lighter I wouldn't want to associate with my ex N in any way (5 years after I started NC) , even though mutual friends sometimes ask me why.

Its because I am still the same person emotionally-speaking: my `triggers' are the same, the things that arouse my empathy and compassion, my fears and my core pain...they are still the same.  And these were what my ex used to control and hurt me.

Its the fact that I let him close enough to know me, and the fact he chose to use that knowledge to harm me (and still could).....that is why I want nothing to do with him.

[lighter]

Bella and Axa:

My attorney told me that no one is going to allow me to have the expectation of NC with N.

At least not where the children are concerned. 

I really thought I'd ask for a third party go between to be installed. 

Is that asking too much, lol?

 

[Portia]

Hi Axa
"the only power is no power" is a quote that I quite like. I think of it as when power is not exercised towards another person. When I no longer want power, then that becomes a power in itself (the power over oneself is the only power?).

I agree there is strength in not choosing to engage with abusive people. Is there also a strength in choosing to engage with them?

With an N, yes I think silence is a powerful tool to protect ourselves when necessary. A great tool!

I think NC is a healthy boundary. But I also think long-term it’s like putting up the barricades and being in a war, if you have to maintain those boundaries inside your head because you feel at risk. Boiling water though: I’m not saying “feel free to go back and get beaten up because in the long run it might make you stronger” (in general it’s better to be alive and safe, than strong and dead I think). But many people aren’t boiling water; the danger is in us yes?

when in a relationship with someone there is an expectation that ones kindness/love will be reciprocated. 

I agree and if kindness is not reciprocated, well: maybe it depends on what you want from a relationship. Or how you experience kindness.

I get confused when it comes to relationships as I do not understand the role of commitment in this context.  Maybe there is no such thing as commitment? Don;t know really.

Me neither. I feel very aware of the changing nature of things and commitment to me is a moving thing. If I commit, I like it to be as rock solid as I can manage. And so much can’t be rock solid, so it’s a balance and it changes.

[axa]

Hi Portia,

Let me begin by thanking you for your reply.  I am sure that this challenge/engagement with you is very very important for my knowing and trust that something significant is coming from it.  I am uneasy with this and welcome this unease because this is how my learning occurs.  Big Thanks for a start and now to your post.



Absolutly right, get this now "the power over oneself is the only power" Light bulb moment

I agree there is strength in not choosing to engage with abusive people. Is there also a strength in choosing to engage with them?

I am not sure about this.  For me, having been addicted to the energy of abusive people, the No Contact feels a bit like being in recovery, healthy recovery.  about choosing to be with them, in some way I understand, that if I am strong enough they cannot hurt/control me.  I wonder is it a bit like the alcoholic having just one glass of wine though.  I believe it is possible to change but for me I feel the damage is so deep seated that I think that having NC boundaries for now has to be part of my recovery.  I know that in time whether I see or not see xn will not matter to me but it does beg the question why would I want to associate with someone who I consider brutal, vengeful, destructive........

I have worked in a professional capacity, in the past, with abusers and to be honest I see the lack of remorse, the lack of empathy, arrogance, blaming etc and came to the conclusion that they will continue their way and the safest thing to do is to stay out of their way.



 But many people aren’t boiling water; the danger is in us yes?

Yes, I agree many people are not boiling water, they are as vulnerable/strong, kind/mean as ourselves.  I guess Portia that I saw everyone as good.  I did not have a realistic view of myself or others...... took me a hell of a long time to see the reality, now I see mine and others flaws and am more careful about putting myself in the danger.  I am aware that others with a healthy sense of self would have run a mile from XN and I did not.  WHy, because I did not have healthy boundaries, I was looking for the happy ever after, Pollyanna was on the ball and a desperate four year old was in charge of my life.  I take responsibility for staying the abusive relationship but in truth I believe I met evil in XN.  It has changed my view of myself and the world significantly.  It was the big wake up call I needed from the universe.

I have suffered abuse before but for someone to stand in front of me tell me they knew what they were doing was punishing me, they knew what I wanted, they knew how hurt I was, that I did not know how devious they really were and smile and tell me they loved me...........creepy.  I am left with the view that I have the ability to be as cruel as XN but choose not to be because I believe it to be wrong to knowingly go out there and try and destablize and destroy someone.  I do not believe the majority of people are like this, I do believe we are all capable of it but the difference is empathy.  Rambling a bit.

I cannot take responsiblity for someone elses actions, I can only take responsiblity for my own and leaving xn and having nc seems to be me saying to me I am of value.  I have learned when I go into the lions den I get savaged.  I am staying out of the lion's den and I am aware there are other lions out there.


I agree and if kindness is not reciprocated, well: maybe it depends on what you want from a relationship. Or how you experience kindness.

I guess I know what I do not want - abuse.  What do I want from a relationship  - honesty, seperateness, softness, challenge, respect......... something along those lines.  When I am kind to someone I experience a sense of softness about that person..... maybe same thing back


[

Me neither. I feel very aware of the changing nature of things and commitment to me is a moving thing. If I commit, I like it to be as rock solid as I can manage. And so much can’t be rock solid, so it’s a balance and it changes.

I think this sometimes as well, everything seems to be moving all the time.  I wonder if I think "I want" is that a challenge to the universe, I wonder is the most peaceful place to be where there are no "I wants" just "I haves".  Part of me feels that if I am in my "I want" mode that I am not grateful for all that I have.  Though I have to admit that it was "I want" was the thing that began the process of seeing XN for who he is.  Guess I need a few more lives to get to the place where I am content with being....... but will continue to struggle.

Sorry for being so long winded......... many thanks for this engagement

axa

[Hopalong]

Hi Axa...

I choose the NC rule because I was BORED RIGID, exhausted and finally got the message......

For me, the realization of how deeply bored I am by Ns and N behavior was one of the most liberating of all. It was as though even if my well-socialized-CoD-martyr self didn't always get the message, there's a piece of me that is creative and that, ultimately, is my deepest birthright, so that rars up now and then. And sets off frustration that sets me in motion.

The Artists Way, the other thread...is probably the way out. Or some similar process.

Boredom might even be one step on the way to detachment, I'm not sure.

I know I don't want drama. So that's progress, inasmuch as I used to crave excitement in any form, including toxic.

Just rambling...love your dialogue with Portia.

love
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hops, Axa,

This is good. I'm recognizing this boredom trend at last.
Hops, it was the way you highlited Axa's quote - those words "BORED RIGID".  Yes!

You know, for years I've said, "I don't get bored... there's always plenty to do".... and I really believed that to be true!

Then the moments of paralysis would come, when I couldn't accomplish a thing because of the constant jumping-to-attention which revolved around the needs of others.... not just "N's".... any others. I was so stuck in "doing" mode. People pleasing. Being a servant, fixer, peace-keeper, slave to the whims of those I considered creative, while I was the practical, dutiful one. All of that constant stimuli was what kept me moving forward (or sideways)... who has time to be creative?  Rigidity. It was my security blanket... adopted from my mother. My involvement in all the drama of life to date has been my creativity... every ounce of it sucked up by the drama-vac. I never saw that before.
Goosebumps here!

Listing anger related to creativity, for the Artist's Way... ooo, revealing. Here's a bit of judgmental rubbish I located within me - "people who are creative are impractical, artsy, fluffy, unrealistic, irresponsible..."   Put that alongside the "I never get bored" and... ain't I just so proud of myself?  Yuck!

How many times I've been frozen in inaction, obsessing about somebody's issues - somebody else's stuff! Husbands, children, friends, relatives... oh, how disturbed I could get by their problems. Hah!  That is boredom. And pride. And I see where it sprouted. Years of training to cut off the disaster at the pass, to foresee all potential trouble and smooth the way, to pick up the pieces after Mr. Destructo of the day tore my life to shreds...  it's like shell-shock... left me bored unless some major drama was constantly playing out before me.

I renounced drama after NPD-ex, complete with the purchase of an "I don't do drama" T-shirt  .... but it continued to spin in my head, out of my reach, until I started feeling safe enough to pull out the feelings one by one and take an honest look at them. I'd fill my days with menial tasks and then resent those who didn't find my accomplishments praiseworthy. I'd resent those who made time to be creative when all I could see was all the work to be done. I'd resent myself for not being able to rise above the mundane... and then I'd settle back into the pride of - well, at least I take care of "business".
That's an awful mess of resentment.

Well, I've really rambled off topic here into true confessions, but thanks for the chance to spit this out.
Enough of being bored and boring!   Onward and upward! 
Thanks again!

Love,
Hope

[Portia]

Hi Axa, thanks to you. I'm struck by:

Part of me feels that if I am in my "I want" mode that I am not grateful for all that I have.

I felt like this, I feel like this, but I reckon it's okay to swing between being grateful and wanting, to go deep into both feelings. I've felt so grateful it felt almost ridiculous! And then the wanting has felt extreme too. Maybe both are fine and we feel both at different times and it's necessary to feel both. In the main curiosity wins out with me, so I guess it's wanting (with periods of peaceful gratitude in between if I'm lucky), wanting life, or, the next experience.

I love the words: addicted to the energy of abusive people. I have a scary visual in my head of that addictive energy radiating like a spider web, seen only by those who are addicted (and invisible to others). I guess i want to stare at that web so long that I make it disappear in my own mind (""poof""), if that makes any sense!