What would happen if we didn't fight them?

[rosencrantz]

Supposing we gave in?

What would happen???

What's the worst that could happen??

I hear lots of you fighting your parents.  What are you fighting FOR?  Please share that with me, because I really do want to hear your perspective.

I've had a crazy couple of months since I last spoke to my mother, reeling from one of her irrational 'rages' that nearly finished me off, and then discovered this 'N' thing (can it be such a short amount of time?!) which put into words all my fears about her 'power' over me. And then finding websites, then reading book after book after book, and then discovering that there are so many people experiencing the same thing - all of them in a different time warp (ie nobody close to home)!
 
I've climbed back up to some kind of sanity, sometimes I 'forget' what she does, and sometimes I still wonder 'Is it me? Did I do that?  Did I cause all of that?'  But then...think...what about the things that happened to me...

What about you?

I think I'm fighting for my sanity, to be free of someone else's harmful projections. But I can't stop my mother doing that to me - this unconscious stuff happens without us knowing until it's too late...

I'm fighting for a space in which I can exist without being controlled, or blamed, or 'tortured'.  But it's unlikely she will stop trying unless I control her.

I'm fighting my own preparedness to be a masochistic punch bag to 'contain' her rages and help her 'get better'.  Because this is far greater than I ever anticipated and I don't have the strength or the training or the support to be able to do it.

But that means the 'get out and keep out' clause still rules.

So here I am still banging my head against a brick wall.  My mother is alone.  And I feel for her all sorts of pain that she's probably never felt for herself because all the pain she inflicts on other people is what keeps HER pain at bay.

I have been so intolerant of my mother - because I didn't understand - and inflicted pain on her in return - but mostly because I've been so darned frightened of what she can do to me, and terrorised by her inability to cope with letting me go (even for a day, even for an hour).

So every time we meet, we clash - her shame, my fear.

So now I'm wondering why I'm asking you this question if I know the answer...but that's my answer - what's yours???  I really would like to know...
R

[Neko]

I forget exactly when I first learned about NPD (although I get the distinct feeling I posted about it before... ), but it was under similar circumstances. I'd just started to pull myself out of depression and anxiety problems after leaving home and being married for a few years - having realized that it was getting away from my parents and being accepted for who I was, for better or for worse, that had "allowed" me to let my anger, guilt, shame, fear, etc. surface. My parents made as much of a surprise visit as is possible when you have to cross an ocean by air, and they hadn't got a hotel room or anything... so they stayed with us in our one-bedroom apartment for a full three weeks.



I was such a mess, it was awful. I couldn't believe my parents couldn't see it. After the first week I slowly started to get a hold of myself and calm down - a bit. Would you believe that it was right then that my mother rose to attack? Gracious did she ever attack. Out of the blue, during the one moment I was alone with her and my father. We were in a rental car, I was in the passenger seat giving directions and my mother was sitting behind me. On the highway (the freaking highway!!) she started crying and saying, "Your father and I are so sad, dear. So very sad." I asked why, knowing full well I was in for a bad experience - bad would be an understatement.

She proceeded to accuse me of continually getting angrier and angrier with them throughout the week that they'd been there, and that it was totally obvious. Recall that I had actually calmed down. I said nothing, and she began screaming - really, really screaming. When I still didn't respond, she started punching and kicking the back of my seat, and my father joined in the screaming!! I was frightened for my life - we were going just under a hundred miles an hour, on a highway, in a country they were totally unfamiliar with! And all they could think about was getting to me!

Twenty minutes later we pulled over for lunch. They were calm and all smiles. I excused myself to phone my husband - they asked why I'd been crying on the phone, and started talking about what a wonderful ride we'd had through the countryside, and how helpful I'd been. I honestly felt murderous.

That was when I started looking for something, anything that would explain this craziness. Was it my fault? Had I just "exaggerated"? Was I blowing events out of proportion? I confronted my parents after getting home, with my husband at my side, and told them to never treat me like that again. They replied, "What are you talking about?" To make a long story short, I eventually got my point across. Anyway, it was the websites and forums on NPD that convinced me: such similar experiences and emotions, everything struck a chord.

I forget what my mother does too. It's a huge weakness of mine - but a survival technique too. That day, though, I made a pact with myself to never forget. Let slide the anger and pain, certainly, but never forget that my mother had done this to me. Not to mention the whole endometriosis story - you know, I was so shaken when I read what I had written here, having the words in front of me I could not understand why I'd ever made excuses for mother's treatment.

You don't need to control your mother - you can't. You can have more control of your own life, and set boundaries (of course you know that!). But in order for those boundaries to have some meaning, there has to be space - that's my opinion, anyway. As soon as my mother's within physical reach of me, my boundaries no longer mean squat. She only respects them from afar because she thinks that she earns points that way, and that she can cash in those points to get to me later.

I feel pain for her too, her father was emotionally and psychologically abusive. But that doesn't change the fact that she abused me and would abuse again in a second. I can do nothing to lessen her pain. Goodness knows I tried as a child - she sucked it all up, told me she loved me, then turned around and walloped me another one. No more.

Honestly, after writing this, I wonder why I even keep telephone contact with her?? Oh, it's the "family" thing. So few people understand the need to completely cut off contact with family...

[Nic]

Oh Rosencrantz! I sure appreciate your writing skills, your style! I felt the exasperation by reading you today.  I often feel the same way, perhaps without as much "urgency" as you.  I think i'm calmer about it but by no means less exasperated than you.
A few posts ago, Tinkergirl wrote me about my trying to figure out my parents and how it was a complete waste of time.  I really think that's true! She went on to say that it was keeping me from the wonderful person that I am..now that was soothing, very generous and loving from a complete stranger.  I maintain that it is a myth that perfect love and acceptance can only be arrived at through the family, my and surely your relationship with your parents clearly demonstrate that.  It's not so much "giving up" as you say or "giving in", it's about moving on.  
I figure God gave me a life and a purpose, i've admitted to having been "drugged" in a way by my parents, hypnotized, abused to the point of losing myself to them.  I must now conclude that after years of taking it upon myself  to know, to find out, to seek the truth, that my relationship with my parents and indeed with my family has not been about me at all.  But about them..Neko really brings that all together in her post.
There are our N parents, wanting to be worshipped by us even after almost killing our souls.  And here we are trying to get approval and love from them knowing full well that we'll never get it.  It's not time to give up, it's time to grow away, to sow seeds in our own lives and in our own futures.
Acceptance perhaps would be a better word.  I have to accept that my parents are not well ( polite isn't it!) I have to acknowledge that statistically it is impossible for me to always be the cause of every wrong that ever happened to them or my family.  I have to make a choice.  Do I want "in" or do I want "out"?  I know what staying in is all about..a continued life or misery,  guilt, half-truths, wondering, anxiety, hyper-responsibility, hyper-sensitivity, denying myself, giving and never receiving..existing and never BEING.  It is wrong.  I must become responsible and a responsible adult  takes care of him or herself, not only for surviving this Earth and all it's challenges and problems but to enjoy my God given life.  
No matter what anybody says, I am not treating myself well by continuing a one-way relationship with my parents.  As i've said before  I would have loved to have a relationship with my parents, instead I ended up with a service contract with them.  That's it, store is closed, no more!  And yes it hurts to waive goodbye to what could have been.  I'm sure that my parents, in their illness, cannot and would not identify with anything i've written here.
When my parents decided to launch an attack on the core of my being, by solliciting legal help, fomenting lies and confabulating horrible stories about my wife and I in order to maintain control over me/us, they crossed the line..the very demarcated spot where parental love and so called concern turned into an indecent display of total disrespect of my sovereign right to live.   God gave me life, not them, He is sovereign over me, not them.  
There comes a time in ones life I believe when things become crystal clear.When it's over it's over, and you'll know it Rosencrantz.  I think Neko knows it and it is very consoling to feel through your written word Neko the peace that surrounds your resolve.
A terminal situation is just that, terminal, bound to die, nothing left to be done but wait for that death.  And then, life dictates that we must move on.  It's the waiting for the death, that space between the end of a relationship that was once meaningful and the begining of the rest of my life that is filled with turmoil.  I have to walk through that fire, that horrible disaster that my life has been thus far.  I am not responsible for what was done to me as a child..all the literature and every post and web-site will validate us on this.. But I am responsible for what happens to me as an adult.
Rosencrantz, I want to reiterate how absolutely wonderful you are.  You are so alive, frantically so at times but alive..so sincere, it shows.  Wont you join me in celebrating that , you've go chutzbah madam, you've got the spark..ignite your own fire and stop fanning your mother's flame.  I tell myself that often..in fact the other day i said to my wife i've got to stop this guilt thing.  We've outgrown our parents' expectations of us Rosencrantz, let's not feel guilty about that.
My parents have become a bad habit, therein the toxicity...i'm in parental detox.  So I need a time-out.  So they are 76 and 80 respectively..too bad. I've become unavailable.  When i was a child and they took away my voice, I wasn't given the choice much less a warning that they were no longer available to me.  Without being vengeful, I ask myself why Nic do you think they deserve an explanation? Why do you need to gift wrap everything for them?
I'm on a roll and it's called recovery, i've got choices to make and I feel better about taking risks now.
I stumbled onto this website and the whole idea of voicelessness and NPD like you.  It's had a drain-o effect on my psyche.It's opened doors that were waiting to be opened.
Don't get too discouraged.  It's great to know we can reach out to this site isn't it?
Nic           --all of those..tears of joy, tears of wonder, tears of exasperation, tears of satisfaction and hope!

[mary]

I have quietly stepped away from my N mother in law.  When I learned that she is N it was a relief to know and to grow in understanding as to what that means.  I have had two therapist tell me to protect myself from being hurt by her.  It has been wonderful to pull away.  She still moves from crisis to crisis but I am away from it and now I don't have to wonder about what she is trying to manipulate me to do next.  It is a relief.

[mcg31360]

Dear Rosencrantz:
All of us have been where you're at  at one time or another. Sad to say, we will probably continue to be there off and on throughout our lives, because WE, unlike the Ns, have empathy! It seems the Ns depend on it and use us because of it. I stumbled across this sight  just as many others have and thank God every day that I did! Sometimes I laugh at the posts. Other times I cry my eyes out. But ALWAYS, I am grateful to be in such good company! There are still good days and bad days, but most of the time I can pick myself up and count the blessings in my life. That's more than I could do while enmeshed with my Nfamily. My cousin killed herself five years ago, and my heart aches to this day over that. There were many times I felt like I wanted to do the same. I don't feel like that anymore! That's progress. Every day I put one foot infront of the other and continue to forge ahead. With everything that's gained, there's something lost. I figure I didn't lose what I NEVER had!

Cathi

[mary]

When I talk about seperating myself from my mother in law that is a whole world of difference than seperating ones self from a parent.  I do feel for you guys that do that.  My N husband is another story.  I am trying to figure out how to stay here and  make a life with him and find myself at the same time. There are so many things I used to do and slowly I quit doing everything almost.  My energy just went to keep my family running and try to keep things as good and as smooth as possible.  N people take so much from you and they don't seem to care if what they get is positive or negative just as long as the focus is on them all the time.

One thing that has been really good is finding out about N people and making sense out of what never made any sense!

[Tinkergirl]

Dear R and all the posters...

I think, in all its simplicity, is that you are fighting for your own truth.  For your own life.  For your own feelings, emotions, and everything else that goes with being alive.  For twenty years I too played the rollercoaster and empathized with my pitiful, pained mother...even through her abuse as a child I supported her because "she had a rough life".  But the point is not to live in the past, to see your N as the sick individual that they are, and be the adult and take charge in your own life.  To not allow yourself to be abused by anyone anymore, especially your parents.  

I'll admit I feel there are days where I think it would be easier to just casually, or silently dissolve out of the family equation, but then I remind myself of the twenty years of hurtful self-abuse via anger, confusion, hatred, resentment that spilled into every other relationship in my life (especially my inner dialogue).  For me, I fight to maintain my focus and truth...that my mother is "not well", that she will not get help, and I will never be able to help her.  But I can help myself...that is what I am fighting for; that is why I risk everything to tell the truth.  Your silence will not protect you...it only protects the quilty.  If you don't fight for yourself, nobody will.

[CC]

Your post has been one to cause me reflection, if nothing else.  I can't answer that.  I have no idea what I am fighting for, if not my own instinct to be compassionate and maintain some sort of sanity, as someone else put it.  We strive for the closest thing to "normalcy" as we can.

It is interesting that I read your post on the morning I was feeling exhausted, emotionally.  I woke up at 3 am , thinking about my mother.  I have dreams almost every week where I am struggling with her, and expressing my rage - probably because I am unable to express it to her directly and I have contact with her regularly.  

This latest one was poignent.  I went off the pill last month because I am finally getting comfortable with the idea of having children (that's another story for another day, some of you remember my earlier posts about struggling with that decision.)  Anyway, in this dream I was at full term, about to give birth - and I suddenly wanted very much for my mother to share in the birth experience with me.  So my husband drove me over to pick her up, and to my horror when I went in the house, all excited for her to come with me to the hospital, she was lying in her den, incoherently drunk, with vomit all over her face and around her (sorry for the graphics).  I was devastated, but more furious than anything else.  I began to scream at her, how could she do this,  how pathetic it was that she was going to miss a beautiful experience because of her weakness, etc. etc. and she was doing the typical tactic - taking away from my big moment by making it all about her.

My mother is a recovering alchoholic so this dream was particularly realistic - though I am glad to say I have never had to find her in that condition.  As I awoke from this vivid dream (nightmare) my rage was replaced with sadness, pity, and SHAME, for her, because I saw her vulnerability, her childlike need for love.

But back to your question, about why we fight.  I awoke from this feeling so resentful, that it seems beyond my control (no matter how healthy I am) that my mother is the last thing I think of before I sleep, and the first thing I think of when I awake.  The bitter realization - this will not stop until she has passed, because she is involved in my life. So R, on this particular day - I ponder - what would be the worst thing that could happen if I moved away, and never looked back?

I think the guilt would consume me.  I think that I might be okay for a while, until she died, and then I would be forever tortured of "what I should have done" instead.  Are these good reasons to stick around and try to "fight"?  probably not.  Who really knows?  maybe to learn something from them?  An excellent question you pose, indeed.

I really identified with what you said about protecting yourself from harmful projections.  We have to fight, merely for survival, and for SELF.  If we did not fight, would we not be turned into nothing? Would it be like staying in a relationship where a man is beating us repeatedly until we die?  Surely that is not our purpose here on this earth.  I am me, and not what mother wants me to be.  You are you, and not anyone else. This is surely why, isn't it?

I wonder too, what would happen if I just "let go", just let her have her way, stopped fighting, and agreed with everything.  It does seem like it would be easier sometimes.  I know I would not have a husband, though, because she would monopolize all my time.  And don't forget, no man is ever good enough anyway.  All you need is THEM, the narcissist.  But that almost answers the question too - we would lose our own passion, our own love, and the beauty we have been able to discover on our own (hopefully you've had some of that) - if we did not fight.

Such a good question.  I will be thinking about this for days.

[Prosperity]

I don't think giving up has to mean giving in.  For me, giving up meant accepting the reality that I was not going to be able to change my husband or his family, or prove anything to any of them.  It helps my sanity to   not take anything personally (read "The Four Agreements", Don Miguel Ruiz--very helpful book)

When I sense a disagreement coming on, I no longer resist verbally.  That doesn't mean I change my views or start feeling "wrong" about my opinions or the way i do something, or stupid or any such thing.  It just means I am not going to argue with them.  Experts say, Do not outwardly disagree with anything a narcissist says.  This advice is helpful.  It doesn't mean allow them to dictate your behavior.  It means, nod and smile and agree, then do things however you would normally do them.  I believe it was actually my MIL who gave me that advice about dealing with her son, ironically!  

It's called "active ignoral."  Although you are aware of the behavior, you don't react to it.  The non-reaction, decreases the vibration and velocity of that negative energy, thereby reducing or preventing the escalation of the situation.  You come out of it feeling MUCH less discombobulated if you take the path of non-resistance.  Have a firm, solid opinion of the situation rooted in your thinking, and just listen to the narcissist and show that you have heard what they said, but don't agree or disagree with it.  One of the major fuels for their fire is your ANGER, your REACTION to them.  It satisfies their NEED for ATTENTION (N-supply).  It gives them a "fix" to be responsible for your upset. (IMHO)

Non-Resistance.  Awareness of your own inner Truth.  Let the person be WHO and WHAT they are without trying to change them, or change yourself.  Acceptance.  And then deciding how you want your life to be, and in what fashion you can go about accomplishing it.  

This mode of thought is helping me.

Love,
Prosperity

[Prosperity]

Rob, i admire your perspective, and your spunk!  My experience with my N has been that I could feel a great sense of accomplishment after finally getting my h to empathize with my point of view after arguing for hours,  only to wake up the next morning and find him right back to square one.  It just got too frustrating to fight anymore.  I just do whatever the he** I want and he throws a fit about it and I don't react.  

Case in point.  Our $800 tax refund came a few weeks ago ( for the increase in child tax credit that George W. issued) and I KNEW he would spend it on a bunch of malarkey.  So when it came in the mail I confiscated it and used it to pay a large hospital bill that had been hanging over our heads for over a year.  When he brought up the tax check later, like why didn't it ever come, I informed him of my "executive decision".  He whined about how he wanted to buy a new computer, an outdoor grill, and a tool belt with that money.   Oh, well, too bad.  Not much he could do at that point!!  He got mad but I just sat there and read my book while he ranted, then finally he admitted it was probably a good decision to use the tax check for that purpose.  See, proactive, not reactive.

Love,
Prosperity

[CC]

Prosperity and Rob

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT advice.  thank you.  I will use these tactics immediately.  Thank you.

[rosencrantz]

I remember now (very small voice) what happens when we (I) stop fighting them.  They punish us.

In recent years my frail and elderly mother has started to say 'We don't want anything (eg financial or practical help) from you - all we want is to know that you love us'.  And I've not been able to give any reply other than silence.  Proof to her that I can't give it, that there is none.  How hurtful of me.

But after my father died, on two occasions, I tried to open my defences and offer her my heart (can't think of a better way to put it in the circumstances).  

Like a venomous snake, a cobra, mesmerised for decades, waiting to strike, suddenly finding a home, she dived for the kill.

I was amazed at how spiteful she was (I had forgotten she could be spiteful).  She was totally unable to receive or hear the compassion, the desire to help and support, the sorrow, the plea to redress the situation, the offer to meet on equal terms...

I thought it was revenge for decades of hurt.  I thought I deserved it.  I was prepared to open myself up for more.  Dear God.

I was sincere, I exposed myself, and she hated me for it.

And I completely fell off my perch.

( gotta laugh)

But the painfully sad thing is that it means that there is nothing I can offer her.  If I offer her indifference, it hurts her; if I offer her love, it hurts her, too. But, you know, I think she feels safer with indifference (which she probably translates as hate and probably feels she deserves) otherwise she risks further rejection. (I feel a bit confused just here because I think that last sentence sounds as tho I'm talking about me - but I think I'm talking about her.  This always confuses me.  Are we really clones???)

If I offer her my 'self', I offer her someone who is vulnerable and imperfect, someone who has searched for answers and found a few (but only by being imperfect, exposing myself and making myself vulnerable).  (Look mum, it's possible to be you, it's possible to be me - we have particular vulnerabilities, a few peculiarities, but we can still be OK in the world, we can start by knowing how hard it is, I know how hard it is for you, I experience your pain, I really do know how much you hurt...)

But because she sees herself as 'me' (no boundaries, I am her, she is me), then what I'm offering her is something too far below the vision of grandiose superiority to which she aspires.  And it would be an insult to suggest that I could possibly know or experience her pain.  She can't possibly be 'ordinary', have anything in common with the common man...she simply can't join me in health and, tempted tho I find myself, I cannot and will not follow her into this folie a deux...

Why do I find myself tempted?  

I feel mesmerised, hypnotised...

But (thinks)...

the men in my life save me

and (struggle)...

whilst she may be the piper...

(more vigorous struggle)

I...

(victoriously bursting free)...

play the tune!!!

     (healthy fanfare?)    

PS My mother ain't so frail, you know - not in mind or in body.  When she forgets, I noticed that she walks without her stick and I've mentioned her 'slasher brain' before!!!

R

[rosencrantz]

I had another note from my mother today.  

I saw the envelope and felt...normal!

I read the note and felt...normal!

I wrote back and felt...normal!

I can't believe that I feel...normal!

That's not to say that I could survive a telephone conversation - yet!!!!!

Although I can envisage one now...

I almost can't believe that the inner chaos and pain of the last few months ever existed - although some of the pain was so great I'm not sure the reverberation from it will ever leave me.

I can't believe that my mother ever had such a powerful and negative effect on me - that our relationship could drive me so close to suicide or mental breakdown (and perhaps me, her).

Thank you for the friendship I have experienced on this forum.  Without you, I could not have survived.

I marvel at the concept of daily (hourly!) therapy - group therapy on tap with time to think and time to express the truth and time to lick our wounds and time to experience the support and truth of others.

There is so much hidden pain in our world.  But every time someone comes onto this forum, a load is lightened.  RG - thank you for the opportunity.

I look around me in wonderment and feel a need to say good-bye.

Perhaps just to ensure that I don't get addicted, (co)-dependent.

Perhaps just a metaphorical good-bye.  I'm sure I'll be back tomorrow!!!

Farewell - to the past! Hail to - a new era...

R

[Alan]

I tripped out today.  I was supposed to go to the house and pickup the last of my things.  First time in 2 months I laid in bed all day.

She e-mailed me concerning divorce issues, including payment of the mortgage.  She said she has it handled.  After prying as to how it will be paid (we were both laid off on the same day), she said that I'm not living there anymore.  And her Nkid was dissing me away from the phone.

She also said she was having a telephone interview and that she's excited and expected to get the job. Grandiosity.  And she might get it.  My garbage says that her "power" will influence the decision.

She wants to keep the house.  My s*** got in the way, all I really need to have her keep the house I helped keep afloat, living the good life she wants (she just wants to be happy and I didn't make her happy after a while) while I had to move back home and no job, no apparent future.

But all her responses to me have been cold, cold, cold.

I thank the Universe for this board.  I feel better already, that's why I post alot.

I can't give an N what they want.  It is dishonest for me to placate someone on that level.  I'm pushing her buttons to be sure she doesn't call me in the future.  I want to and will move on....we all will

[darkturr]

Thank you for this place.  This is my first post.  All of this made sense, and I have been wondering how to deal with a N friend whom I no longer want in my life-for reasons obvious to -not so to him!

It never ceases to amaze me how much time they will put into something as futile as a petty arguement, and how little time the will put into - working for a living

I wondered if anyone had advice on how to extract myself from this situation with my sanity intact.  This person is very persistent and will keep me going on an argurment for weeks if necessary, D & D me then come back as if nothing has happened.

Dark