Understanding - and/or leaving - MEN!

[rosencrantz]

There's a new edition of 'Manhood' (Steve Biddulph) out just now in the UK.

My understanding of 'men' comes from the women's movement.  We spent a long time emancipating women - then suddenly realised that men are just as much 'victims' of our society and 'the system' as WE were!!!

So we each have to do some work on understanding and emancipating our own gender before we can come back together to become 'one' or 'joint' again.

It bothers me sometimes when I see people having communication difficulties that are 'simply' mis-hearings, jointly non-empathic understandings and gender/personality differences.  But it can be tricky disentangling it from the personality 'disorder' of entrenched narcissism.  I guess it's just a continuum and it's one we women are on as well.

But I, too, see my husband more and more clearly.  Castle wall boundaries (it's why I chose him - so I wouldn't get invaded and suffer 'emotional contagion' as I did with my mother and others).  He gave me a chance to become myself - but at the same time undermined me because of his own anxieties and damaging beliefs.  The year I got married I was being successful in all areas of my life.  An apogee - for it was all downhill after that. Within a year, I'd lost my job, my voluntary post, my income, my self-esteem, my purpose in life.

My H seemed to despise the very things that he had first admired about me - my chutzpah, my honesty, my ability to just go up to someone professionally and say 'hi' and how can we help each other'.  I think I let him down by not being stronger and telling him he was wrong!!!  If my self-esteem had been stronger, I'm sure it could not have happened.

He acted from a space I didn't understand - but I 'did it back' to him to make him see how uncomfortable it was (cos surely he would want to change!!!)  Er, no - it just became a mutual habit.  Now I know he thought I was trying to 'get at him' !!! (how very like the 'paranoia' of my mother) - we ended up in a downward spiral of blame and (shame?).  He resented me - and I resented him.   Everyone 'outside' thought how nice he was - and I resented him just as I'd resented my mother : 'nice' to the outside world but something else at home.  

I used to think that whatever I 'perceived' was wrong.  If I saw a repeated 'pattern', I assumed it was my imagination 'imposing' the image of my mother on someone else.  I didn't understand it was the same thing.  My mother in a different guise.  Well, now I know.  

Over the past few months I have come from a place of hardly daring to front up to my husband, to struggling to do so, to trying to be consistent in doing so until now (after the changes within me) I do it automatically - because I KNOW he has just reacted to me through a distorting lens and I'm no longer cowed by his attempt to control through threatened rage (he does it just like my father did when I was little!).  

But it doesn't exactly make me happy!  It's tiring and a pain.  And it doesn't bring us closer.  He's reading 'Controlling People' right now.  He was supposed to have read it months ago but clearly didn't.  He weasled out of a promise.  This time I set the parameters.  Read it.

In many ways he is an admirable man.  A man of honour.  A man of his word.  A man prepared to spoil and serve (causes me agony - please DON'T - even while I accept).  Understands my mother in a nutshell - no agonies there!!!  But not hot on 'intimacy'.  I want him to be much more open.  He's a great support in many ways, especially this last year.  Will listen long!  Is VERY logical and rational.  Until the spotlight is on HIM!  I don't want to stick labels on him but the N word hovers!!!  But he doesn't want to cause pain and is responding by energy healing and metamorphic technique as I've had tho the last thing you'd EVER see him do is participate in a forum such as this. That's OK - we're all different.

I said in another post - NOW...I can choose to stay, I can even choose to love him to bits.  The knowledge then at the back of my mind of someone else, long ago and far away but who, I thought, had really disappeared, and had no desire to stay in touch...popped up last week and is in the process of getting free.  There is a link between him and my son.  

I have no wish to betray my H by having an affair or leaving him and 'that' other relationship would be a couple of years down the line if it ever happened (surely not! BUT if I had an inkling three years ago then he must have had, too).  This man has 'feelings' and 'sensitivity' but I bet he's not half as honourable and rational and upright as my H.

Right now, hearing the things I've said today and noticing the things I've done, I realise I've put in place everything that will allow me to leave, to escape.  A semi-escape.  The raison d'etre being the needs of my business. To go and live (part-time) an hour away.  My son very definitely wants to spend weekends in that place while daddy stays at home to look after the cats.

Well, you don't need to leave, to leave it seems!

I sortof don't believe myself - but action is fact...

But the picture of sadness that would be my H if I went.  I really don't think he'd care.  It's what he almost hopes for - to be left alone.  From alone to alone.  Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.  I think that's all my father wanted, too.    Mea culpa.  But I really don't think I'll ever lose all my body armour/protection/fat if I stay!
R

[rosencrantz]

PS And the other BIG reason for leaving, even on a 'semi' basis, is that I'd have a better relationship with my son as well.

I've become aware over the past year of just how much my H undermines my relationship with my son!  As far as I'm concerned, theirs was THE important relationship from the moment my son was born - it just happened that way.  And I'm so full of self-sacrifice that it was OK and fitted my 'life pattern'.

But occasionally, my son and I get on really well and my H ALWAYS does something mean to undermine me.  He cuts me off at the knees, makes some disparaging comment or otherwise slices away the energy that's between my son and me.  Astounding, unbelievable.  

And it's very impactful.  We immediately part company.

I was so happy a week or two ago, my son was happy too.  And it was happiness begetting happiness.  I was just SO happy that my son was happy and that we were finally getting on so well.   I was conscious that I was SMILING often and I hadn't done that for so long.  Then ZAP! from my H.  He did it to us both, this time.  Jointly.

I tell him these days.  I 'hissed' it straight up this time (in private, not near my son).  "As soon as I get close to x, you can't stand it!"  (I can't believe I said it and said it like that, but it was the TRUTH!)  So that was all three of us in our separate corners.

It might be cos he feels left out - or whatever - but he has no right to spoil things for us when our good times are so infrequent anyway.   And I separate from my son as a result and he probably thinks I don't love him again/enough.

Well, there we go.  I've 'fessed all now.

TTFN
R

[sjkravill]

Hi rosencratz,

What a difficult decision.  I cannot relate to having a child involved, but it only appears to make the matter even more painful.  It sounds like you know in your heart what would be best for your relationship with you son.
Yet, there are so many other considerations that complicate the matter.
I just read Lundy Bancroft "Why Does He Do That: Inside the minds of Angry and Abusive Men." It was very empowering to read and it may apply here.

I was going to highlight and respond toparts of your first post in the thread that I could relate to.  But then, I would have highlighted most of your page. . .  You have clearly articulated what reads similar to my own story. I wonder if it is a phenomenon.  I wonder how many other people: are attracted to this charming man who everyone loves... and for good reason, he is a good man, in many ways.
This man seems to want to let us become our bold selves, appears to understand our childhood wounds...
But then a year or so into it, we are surprised to learn we have lost ourselves, and have begun to resent him and appreciate him simultaneously.  
We question our own perceptions because we recognize our wounds.
By this time he has lost whatever respect he appeared to have in the beginning.  We try to show him how he hurts us.  But he doesn't get it.
Then, slowly, we learn to stand up to him again...
Alas! we realize he is an N (or at least has disruptive N tendancies) very much like the mother (or parent) we thought he was not.
Now, we have committed so much.  We are trying to change our behavior, in hopes that he will respond with more respect for us.
Maybe it is a cost-benefit analysis in which we feel we have incomplete information.
We are not happy even though we have begun to change.  
Instead, we are exhausted and in pain.
We wonder if that feeling will change.
It's hard not to be tempted by other ideas...  Is it temptation because of temproray pain? Or Is it the truth finally being told?  Is it both?

rosencratz, I don't know if this is an adequate interpretation of where you are at.  It was intended to be an interpretation of how your story inspiried, and helped clarify how I feel about my situation. And it is a quandery... about how many others go through something very similar... A way of saying "you are not alone."  A way of saying, I have no answers and very little wisdom, but I do wish you love and support and clarity and empowerment in discerning your truth.  Thank you ever so much for sharing it.

Peace, sjkravill

[rosencrantz]

Almost poetry, sjkravill!  And I believe our deepest truth comes out in poetry.  A brilliant post.  

And thank you for the kindest of words in your last paragraph.  Not sure I deserve them but I appreciate them!!!!!

It's not a decision so much as some kind of flow.  I don't know where it will end up and it will take a long time evolving.  Years.  So I'm not in a panic (well there's a surprise - what a change!!)

I have the book you mention and...I'm not sure it applies.  Perhaps it 'should'.  But as you say, he is a good man, in many ways, a feminist, indeed!!!!! Well, some of my more 'challenging' sisters would  quibble but he's a good way down the road on that one!!!  Nevertheless, I sometimes wonder how far apart are his words and his true feelings.  Does he know his 'true' feelings?  How can I presume to know what he doesn't know himself!

I mean, if he were writing here, I'd just so much want to 'know', to seek to understand him by knowing as well as being just plain nosy!!!  I know he would value my privacy.  But is it really to 'ethical' when he really doesn't much care what I write.  I mean, he'll be happy to listen if there's something I want to share with him.  

Can we have everything we want in someone else?  Of course not.  I thought I was being 'adult' to accept his distance considering everything else that I benefited from - but I'm not happy - in fact I'm very depressed.   I haven't given up hope and I know this year has 'taken it out of me'.  But do I make him happy?  Probably not.  Would anybody make him happy???????  Oh dear.  I'm pretty sure he wouldn't try again with anybody else.

Hello Nic - emotional convenience.  Sigh!  I hoped it was friendship.

So, yes, sjkravill - you write exactly what I'm experiencing.  I'm glad!  And yes, I feel less alone.  Thank you!

We are trying to change our behavior, in hopes that he will respond with more respect for us.

There was just something in this sentence that made me want to think 'beyond'.  But I can't quite get to it at the moment.  

It's half past midnight - brain has gone to sleep without me.

Back tomorrow no doubt (unless I go for that drive to pastures new but bad weather threatens so perhaps not!!  I'm easily kept in my place!!!!!)

'Night for now.
R

[rosencrantz]

Oh, just thought to clarify - my son's home would continue to be here with H, same school, same friends, same food, same routine.  Or that's what I thought.  But maybe he'd be better off in the big town for his next school anyway.  Now there's a thought.  Part-timers all round.  Maybe that's what's pulling me in this new direction.  

One thing that's new and for sure.  I TRUST my intuition and I trust it to take me to good places and not to hurt others.  I wonder if this is what a religious belief feels like!!!  Trust, safety, security - ???
R

[Anonymous]

But it doesn't exactly make me happy!  It's tiring and a pain.  And it doesn't bring us closer.  He's reading 'Controlling People' right now.  He was supposed to have read it months ago but clearly didn't.  He weasled out of a promise.  This time I set the parameters.  Read it.

I don't understand what is going on in your marriage....and maybe he should read this book. But my philosophy is against asking that anyone read anything. First, they may interpret the book very differently from the way I hope they will. There's no guarantee that a book will influence them in the least. I would pressure them to see a marital therapist with me, though.

In many ways he is an admirable man.  A man of honour.  A man of his word.  A man prepared to spoil and serve (causes me agony - please DON'T - even while I accept).  Understands my mother in a nutshell - no agonies there!!!  But not hot on 'intimacy'.  I want him to be much more open.  He's a great support in many ways, especially this last year.  Will listen long!  Is VERY logical and rational.  Until the spotlight is on HIM!  I don't want to stick labels on him but the N word hovers!!!  But he doesn't want to cause pain and is responding by energy healing and metamorphic technique as I've had tho the last thing you'd EVER see him do is participate in a forum such as this. That's OK - we're all different.

If he's a man of honor and integrity, I think you may not realize that this is GREAT. Maybe he is a good husband! This other stuff you want from him is (in my view) beyond what is normally obtainable. Most husbands wouldn't participate in this forum. But they're still good husbands. Many husbands aren't intimate in the way a woman wishes. But they're still good husbands. Possibly you are expecting too much from marriage but then I'm a bit confused as to the marital situation here.

bunny

[rosencrantz]

Hi bunny - I don't disagree with what you say (oddly enough??) tho I wouldn't pressure him to see a therapist.  It would destroy him.  And I don't want to do anything that might damage his ability to 'deal with the world'.  He made his choices as a child in an alcoholic home and he's lived a decent life as a result.  So...gently, gently here.  But a good husband may not mean a healthy lifestyle for me.  I may just need to have more space, a holiday, being alone, having an opportunity to meet people freely.  Sometimes it's something 'symbolic' that needs to happen.

So I'm just 'going with the flow' of something here, being alert and being aware of what I'm doing.

And I'm still smarting from someone's comments some time ago when what I'd said about my H was used as a weapon against me and also 'did him down'.  So I'm just trying to be as honest as possible. Trying to get 'stuff' out in the open until this 'feeling' goes away.

Gotta go
R

[Anonymous]

Hey Rosencrantz, I nearly fell off my perch when I read your post. It's that bloody T-Shirt. Get it off this instant woman, NOW!!!!!. hahahahahah

Hey, I say, you know like in a game show, I'm shouting from the audeience, "Take the holiday, the holiday." Just a nice little time away, a few good books, the odd little drinky poo at a nice quiet sleezy bar, the odd little alert-flirt with a few tall dark and handsome N's, string a few along for a few dinners and dances. Don't tell them where you're from, make up some crap story, have some fun, and hey hahahahahahahahahahahahahah, hey, hahahahahahah, use the name Rosencrantz when you introduce yourself to them. Stunning, absolutely stuning. Then when it all heats up a bit too much, bolt home to the safety of hubby and son and appreciate what bliss comfort and security can be.

(((HIG)))

CG

PS, and failing that, take a SHIRLEY VALENTINE type holiday, get well and truly laid by a gorgeous meditteranean, enjoy every damn single illegal minute of it, (DON'T FORGET TO USE A CONDOM!!!!) go home wracked with guilt, confess, repent, be forgiven, and get straight back here and tell me all about it. PLEEEEASE!!!!!!

[Portia]

Bloody hell CG! But I like you (Benny Hill style).

Gosh R. Think I'm about to do us both a favour here....

And I'm still smarting from someone's comments some time ago when what I'd said about my H was used as a weapon against me and also 'did him down'.

..shall I? Ooo-er. Drop the grenade? It's only the truth! Go on then:

Do you mean what Jacmac did?

RUN FOR THE HILLS! I'm joking, I'm a tiny bit bigger now. But seriously, do you mean that? It was pretty out of order but then most of That Post was out of order so if you do mean that, christ, forget it, it's not worthy of even remembering. But if it bothers you (does it?) let's get it out. I won't panic and call for help from Dr G this time (boy do I feel silly about that, but then again no, it was ok at the time, I couldn't cope then). Want to talk about it? (bet I've got the wrong person - ha ha ha ha!!) Tell, please, who did you mean??

[Anonymous]

Yeah Portia, hell you're gutsy    (love it) I wanted to ask too but wasn't game, so I'm the little coward shit now hiding behind you, echoing to Rosencrantz "Yeah, who, when??"

CG

[sjkravill]

Hi Rosesncratz,
I wanted to post this last night but I was studying for a final, so I made myself focus on that instead

This was part of your response:
Nevertheless, I sometimes wonder how far apart are his words and his true feelings. Does he know his 'true' feelings? How can I presume to know what he doesn't know himself!

Here is just an observation because your story about your H's feminism looks familiar to me.
I have this same discussion with myself about my H.  (or N?). Very deceptive because he believes he is a feminist, and he says lots of the right words.
 He claims to be a feminist.  Afterall, he was raised by women.  He loves strong women.  He needs and wants a strong women...  Whatever!  He touts feminism but nonverbally he expects me to do the domestic chores... He likes strong women, but he becomes the victim or the bully the minute I call him on his disrespect for me. I could go on.  
Maybe his picture of himself is honnorable, as a feminist, (and he is very good at appearing as such to others) but actions speek louder than words buddy!  Perhaps unconsciously, unaware, he is bored with the lack of challange in women wthout power, and he resents women with power.  He wants his wife to be what he wants her to be when he wants it...  He wants momma, wife and pet wraped up in one.  He wants to be the "good" variation of his daddy.  We are all somewhat self-deceived, hey?

The more I observe my H, the more I think he is pseudo-aware.  He pretends to be aware.  He thinks he is aware.  He is aware of his fanciful image of the world.  But is he aware of his underlying beliefs/ needs/motives/desires?  It doesn't appear so.  Sometimes he will say something so telling... something that gives his true motives away, and he doesn't recognize that as somethig that should tell him something about himself or the situation.

Maybe I am an idealist, but I don't think it is too much to demand basic respect from you H.  

I am glad you trust your instincts and perceptions... something I am slowly learning to do... slowly.  Best to you on this journey...

Peace! sjkravill

[bunny]

Hi bunny - I don't disagree with what you say (oddly enough??) tho I wouldn't pressure him to see a therapist.  It would destroy him.  And I don't want to do anything that might damage his ability to 'deal with the world'.  He made his choices as a child in an alcoholic home and he's lived a decent life as a result.  So...gently, gently here.  But a good husband may not mean a healthy lifestyle for me.  I may just need to have more space, a holiday, being alone, having an opportunity to meet people freely.  Sometimes it's something 'symbolic' that needs to happen.

rosencrantz,

Please take this as my pragmatic mind taking over...I'm not down on you or your husband.

Q: If seeing a marriage counselor would destroy him, how would your leaving him without trying marriage counseling affect him?

Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would be rough and mean to him?

Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would take your side against him?


bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi bunny - I don't disagree with what you say (oddly enough??) tho I wouldn't pressure him to see a therapist.  It would destroy him.  And I don't want to do anything that might damage his ability to 'deal with the world'.  He made his choices as a child in an alcoholic home and he's lived a decent life as a result.  So...gently, gently here.  But a good husband may not mean a healthy lifestyle for me.  I may just need to have more space, a holiday, being alone, having an opportunity to meet people freely.  Sometimes it's something 'symbolic' that needs to happen.

rosencrantz,

Please take this as my pragmatic mind taking over...I'm not down on you or your husband.

Q: If seeing a marriage counselor would destroy him, how would your leaving him without trying marriage counseling affect him?

Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would be rough and mean to him?

Q: Do you think a marriage counselor would take your side against him?


bunny

Go bunny, but I'm still rootin' for rosencrantz to take the holiday, mediterranean latino lover, and a good hard shag me'self!!!! Oh did I say 'rootin'. freudian slip. hahahahahahahahahaha

But I guess it ain't gonna happen so I'll change course and try for an intelligent response. But don't hold your breath, this is me after all.  

Go on Rosencrantz, haul his hairy cute butt off to marriage counselling. What will come out of it, you can never assume to know.

Oooh, oooh, oooh,  I feel a an' ol' cliche' comin' on, and, and , and , here it is. TA DA!

"When you 'ASSUME' you risk making an 'ASS' out of 'U' and of 'ME'.  Barf, Barf  

But hey, he might surprise you. You are such a parent/protector. It comes out here loud and clear to me anyway. Ya' gota' stop doin' that!!!

Let's play 'hypotheticals' for while. I loved that show. Here we go.

Let's say you are parenting/protecting your husband.

If you had to accept for a moment that is what you're doing, (parent/protecting your husband/ hell maybe even yourself) then what would you say you're protecting him for or from anyway?

Here' a big thought. If you really think he's that fragile that he couldn't handle it, then I'd say for sure he and you both definitely needs it, or something very much like it.      

Do you think you can be responsible for becoming so healed that somehow your super-ultra healing will compensate for his 'none healing'. What a burden for you. You have to do it all.

Let's sing together, 8 beats to the bar,
heal & recover & change & grow,
heal & recover & change & grow,
heal & recover & change & grow,
heal & recover & change & grow.

And when you've done, heal, recover, change, grow some more.

Meanwhile, what the f##k is he doin'.      

If it were me, we were talkin' about you here and not you, I'd say I'm important enough to run that risk I think. I'd rattle his comfy little predictable cage. Why not? It's real life issues here isn't it?

Back to you. You're a mated-off pair. He's got you and you're a bloody good catch. Let him earn it.

Back to if it were me. I'd bet he'd rather face some type of joint counselling/therapy stuff than lose me, even temporarily. What would I lose?

Back to you. He might surprise you.  

What if you don't??? Where can that lead???? More questions???? I'm getting lost now. Too many questions. I can't see how being apart fixes anything really. You wanna clear out for a while, feel the wind in your hair. Don't blame you. You're in mourning still, and you haven't had the time to put all the peices back together, now that a big peice is gone. You've been so focussed on your mother's mental health so much.

What a burden!

But regardless, I don't believe your son doesn't need you. That's an illusion that's weaseled it's way in during the stress and confusion and it's bullshit. The boy hasn't been born who doesn't need his mother. You just maybe fel that you're not good for him at this stage. Another illusion I think, but if it does have a hint or stench of truth, change it quick, but don't clear off. He does bloody well need you now!!! Keep the communication going with him, and giving him love in words and deeds.

Let him know you'll always be there for him, no matter how f##ked up you feel on a day to day basis. And if he    at you, that's what boys do often. But the message still gets through. Really it does.

And if he seems self-sufficient, and outta touch, maybe he's doing that out of love for you, to not put pressure on you. What you wouldn't want I'm sure is for him to ever have interpreted your personal struggles as disinterest in him, or more important than him, would you? See, more questions. Sorry? Maybe they are both (H and son) seeming independant, okay, self-sufficiant, just to give you room to deal with stuff. People who love us do that sometimes. And sometimes we mis-read it. I really don't know. I'm just chuckin' balls (ideas) at you. Have any hit you yet???

Here's a totally gross scary idea. Do you worry that a counsellor might take his side against you? TA DA!!!! Could that be it??? Or the counsellor might  misread you and re-interpret you back to your husband in an ignorant and  unfavourable light? We all know they can do this, the stupid bastards.

One spouse usually comes up smellin' like roses, and the other spouse like rose fertiliser, or shit to put it politely. That's me, the fertiliser. I usually end up smellin' like shit in joint counselling so I avoid it like the plague too. But you gotta keep goin' till you find a good one. They are out there, or so I'm told. Yeah right, like they said you can't fall pregnant on your first shag.

Anyway, if you don't wanna go the counselling route, how about takin' up origami??? it worked for me    Look how I turned out??? hahahahahahahahahahaha

(((HIG)))

CG

[rosencrantz]

Oh CG - Thanks for the laughter.

This is the second time I've come in to try to reply to this thread but there's just so much here!!!

bunny, and CG, I think a marriage counsellor would be 'unfair' on him for two reasons.  He's a very private man (way off the scale for Introversion) and it's hardly fair to put two women (most likely) against one man when both women are not only 'naturally' good at communicating but also well schooled in 'how to do' therapy etc.  Don't you think it would be a little one-sided, lop-sided in my favour??!  I could run rings round him in terms of understanding what we're about in the sessions, feel great (it's 'my' kind of environment) and he could feel very (even more?) depressed and hopeless.

No, it hadn't occurred to me that there would be winning and losing sides, just inequality.  It wouldn't be 'fair'!

But yes, I'll take the holiday instead!!!  

Yes, CG, he has occasionally surprised me and come up trumps in circumstances I'd never have credited.  But he has occasionally devastated me as well.  Here goes...he 'takes' things which are 'mine'.  

(I can just hear CG guffawing over suggestions about him taking my clothes or makeup - Was I right?  Stop it CG!   I don't mean that at all!!!)

The feelings of devastation I feel are, I'm sure, one of those childhood things again.  But on the other hand, he does do it.  He takes 'space' which is special to me and then messes it up.  I wonder why he needs to do that.  He'll help himself to most of what's on a plate rather than check how many it's for.  He hands me a piece of shit and expects me to crow over it in admiration and wonder like he just gave the teacher the best apple out of the orchard that he picked himself.  I don't want to be his mother - I resent what he does, I resent his lack of insight.  I wonder what 'good' thing he might think he's expressing...

Ach!  There was a post I made which got lost.  And it was very hopeful.  And it ended with me asking him to remember (when things go all pear-shaped) what he'd once felt about me that was very special.  It had been his birthday soon after we met and he was overwhelmed at the efforts I went to for him.  It was a natural thing for me to do - probably done in my over the top style (esp. considering we'd only known each other a couple of months!) you know, because 'average' giving had never been enough in my home!!!  

And he wasn't alienated by it, it made him feel special - I'd demonstrated caring in a way no-one had ever done for him before.  Isn't that sad.  And I absolutely know now that that's the 'real' me, not the person he 'sees' in me when he feels 'got at', when he sees me being his tempestuous alcoholic father.  If I could find a way to get him to remember who I REALLY am rather than who he 'thinks' I am, then we might have more chance of moving forward.  So, he agreed to do that.

Then something 'happened' between us.  He came into the room.  We had some kind of confrontation.  I was feeling OK but he went into some strange other place in his mood 'as it' something else entirely had happened.  I can't remember the exact details but then he said he was trying to remember the birthday cake and how dreadful he was feeling!!!!!  That's the first time he's expressed all that terrible despair so clearly and at the time he's feeling it.  

And he'd been reading the Controlling People book and so I stood next to him, by his side, facing the chair I'd been sitting in and showed him how he'd expected me to 'be' someone else and when I wasn't, when his nicely worked out version of how the world should be when he arrived in the room, and how he had anticipated how I would react, evaporated before his very eyes, how he'd behaved in a very challenging way.

I was able to tell him that I'd seen him do that at work as well with his boss years ago.  He fabricates how the world will react to him and then acts 'as if' it is.  And I'm probably the only person in the world who challenges him on it.  So I've been chipping away at the very foundations of his world for the last 17 years!!!  No wonder this doesn't feel good for him!!!

I understood him in that moment better than I ever have.  But that's because I wasn't so bound up in my own agitation and fear.  And I think I got him to start to see the reality of it all, too.

You know, as I sit here, it's very difficult to remember where we got to, but I know we moved forward quite a long way.  I believe he began to understand.  I've never been able to be that gentle with him before, but it's the first time he's been open enough to hear.  

That book Controlling People is very scary reading.  But it's very, very good.  It really helps you understand what's going on in other people who need to control their environment for whatever reason.  

We talked some more about how he 'sees' me as his father. But I'm not his father - I'm the birthday girl!!!  And I deserve to be loved and honoured, not abhored and feared.  And, although my H would make a great Jeeves or Parker,  I deserve to be supported, not 'served'!!!  And the same goes for my son!!!  

My son even said one day 'don't treat me like a Prince'!!!  He's started telling my H NOT to do things for him that he doesn't want to do.  But my H has a need to 'comply' beyond reasoning.  And to resent the 'inconvenience' of the demands at the same time.  And I know that the next time it happens I'll despair again because it's gone on for so long but there is hope really.  I think.
R

[Anonymous]

rosencrantz,

Competent marriage therapists don't let sessions become unequal. They don't take sides. They don't allow it to be a "ganging up" situation. And they aren't all women.

From your description, you are trying to be his therapist. But a spouse can't do that -- it doesn't work. And he can't "take" your space. You probably let him. That's what a therapist would help both of you improve. The therp would help you to retain your space and would help him stop being so intrusive.

my two cents..given in friendship.

bunny