inspired by the "sigh sigh sigh" thread

[Anonymous]

Thank you write and Gingerpeach for your wisdome and experience in that  thread  (not to disclude anyone from this thread),
I wanted to respond to particular posts on "sigh sigh sigh"  but by the time I got back to it, it at turned in another direction. and I didn't want to co-opt where they were going with it.

Gingerpeach: Your concern is so sweet, thank you.  I am holding school together for the last week and a half.  I am going to be done, which is all that matters.  My work isn't exactly top notch.  I am hoping that this summer I can find some other way to deal with this so that my work is better in the fall.  My coping skills, and clarity seem to come and go.

Thank you for your clarity.  Your story always highlights issues between N and I which I chose to ignore on some level.  Recently N was upset with me for not  rewarding him (sexually and verbally) for all of the changes he has been making.  He says he is trying so hard for me, he is loosing himself.  Mind you, I do say thankyou and acknowledge him whenever he does something thoughtful, even when he just  takes out the trash.  That is never enough for him.  More from me would suck all of the life out of me.
I want to tell him not to try to please me if it is going to cause him to lose himself.  What ever happened to loving for the sake of loving? (not for the rewards that would follow)  Is that unrealistic?  Maybe it is with N.  That made it somewhat clear to me that treataing me with respect is very difficult for him, and has not become engrained in his character.

I think you are right.  They are just behavior changes (and probably temproary ones)  He will keep doing them if it gets him what he wants (which I can only assume is a wife who worships the ground he walks on).  When he doesn't get it, he feels despair.  Since I have been upfront with him he is more and more subtly manipulative. This is what I was afraid of, Like in your case, he is still destroying me, just more subtly.  Even complements aren't complements...
The other day he told me he was glad I had a mentor who could articulate my feelings when I coud not.  I said, "I am relatively articulate, so that usually isn't a problem, but it is good to have someone who is on the same page with me in other ways."  He was upset with me for reading into and contradicting what he said.  He was only trying to say something nice to me.  I appologized.  But, later I realized that I was just correcting his perception of me, and there was nothing wrong with that... I did acknowledge his good intention.  And really, on some deep level I think he must not perceive me as very articulate.  Or he is projecting his stuff onto me....  Because why else would he say that?  Oh well, it doesn't matter any more.  

What matters is that I become sharper in detecting and deflecting his N messages... that I hold my ground without feeling terribly guilty when it hurts him.  I hope my options for changing this situation will become clear to me, internally.

Like Write, it is very hard for me to see him as just an N.  I see him as a whole person, who is hurt, who has positive and negative traits, who can heal.  It is very hard for me to understand how he works because I would never, in a million years  work that way.  
*sigh*
Thanks again, sjkravill

[sjkravill]

Drats!  I thought I was logged in!
That previous post was me, sjkravill
hope it worked this time!
Peace!

[Anonymous]

Dear Sjkravill,

First, you are NOT inarticulate !!!  Not in the least !  You may never know what prompted your H to say that to you,  but I just wanted to make SURE that you don't believe it !   You are extremely expressive, do not doubt that.

It may just be the veiled insult.  Or could it be the backhanded one?  My NH used to lull me into complacency with a compliment, so that I was totally unprepared for the slam dunk.  Gotcha.....  Man, I never saw that truck coming !

So, good for you that you are "articulating" your needs and your desires to your H.  And it is heartening to hear that he is paying attention to your requests and subsequently changing his behavior.  Hey, if he really thinks you are so inarticulate, how come he can understand what you want?  

Although the comment about "feeling like he is losing himself" is somewhat telling.  It rather points up how alien it is for him to behave that way.  Sigh....

And yes, I understand your weariness and impatience with the constant quid pro quo.  See, I was nice.....can we have sex now? And no, I don't think that it is unrealistic to want, to strive for, to settle for less than "loving for the sake of loving."  I'm not sure if anything else can really be considered "loving" anyway.  

As to seeing him as "just an N," I agree with both you and Write.  I don't mean that they are "just an N,"  what I think is that it can't be separated out.  That the Narcissism was woven into the fabric of their self-ness as they developed.  

Think of it like a plaid blanket and the N-ness are all of the black threads.  If you pull all of those black threads out, you still have a blanket.  And depending on how many black threads there were, the holes in the blanket may be miniscule up to enormous.  If it was predominantly a black blanket, well put it this way, don't count on it to keep you warm.

This is where undoing the N-ness is so difficult.  It's really hard to weave in new threads.  I am not saying that I think that it's impossible, just that it takes a very long time and much effort.  It's painstaking handwork.  You can't put it back on the loom.  And you have to be able to see the holes. The repair might take longer than the time it took to weave it in the first place.

This goes back to your very first post where you asked if Narcissism was a spectrum.  And it very definitely is.  This is why so many people on this board recommend reading about it and educating ourselves.  How else can we determine the pattern in the blanket ?  And then, or concurrently, come to know our own needs and decide whether or not we are willing to freeze.

On another note, I am glad to hear that your schoolwork is going well.  And don't worry about it being perfect.  Give yourself kudos for keeping at it in spite of everything else on your plate !!

[Gingerpeach]

Sorry, that was me....Gingerpeach.  I finally officially "joined" tonight (big step for me !)  And wouldn't you know it.....not logged on, my very first "official" post !!

[sjkravill]

Gingerpeach, Welcome! (in regards to your membership!)

Thank you again for your wisdom and helpful metaphors.

The blanket with holes in it.... That's exactly it.  
I keep struggling with my role, as "lover" and "therapist." I keep feeling a little resent about being the one to have to re-train him, in a way. IF I am successful as his therapist, and can pull out and replace all of the N threads, how long will that take?  and how much damage will I have suffered?  Will the harm to me be repairable in that I can trust him enough to be his lover?

He was angry with me again last night.  To my relief he went out for the evening. I was going to bed just as he was coming back.  He laid down next me, staring at the cealing. He often does this right before he is going to give he hell.  So, I had this foreboding feeling. (actually I had sort of known this was coming all day)  
Then,
N: "sweetie, are you going to sleep"
Me: "That was my intent."
N: *sigh*  *sigh* ....... *loud sigh*
Me: "I guess we can talk, but not for long because I am really tierd."
N: "When are we going to be intimate again?"
Me: "You know I can't answer that question"
N:  "you don't ever kiss me back"
Me: "I do kiss you back"
N: "it's the 'lets just be friends'/ 'get away from me kiss'"
Me:  "could there be other messages in it than that?"
N: a half hour or so worth of: "It has been so incredibly long" "No couple goes 7 months without sex" "most couples have make up sex within 7 minutes"  "I could not have done anything so god-awful to you to warent you curling up into fetal position every time I come near you" (the truth is, that's a conditioned response to him) "I am a man, this need is hard wired"  "you are the one who chose to be celebate." "You take longer to heal than anyone I know"  "Whereas you need a good marriage before you can have sex, I need sex in order to be a good husband"  "I don't know how much longer I can do this"  "I have these mood swings because of the lack of sex."
"I feel like I am playing by your rules"  "I don't get any information from you"
Me:  So, you're playing by my rules, but you don't get any information?  That seems like a contradiction...
N:  Don't use that reflective listening crap with me.
Me:  I am just trying to be sure that I understand you.
N:  I don't need that.  It will drive me crazy.
Me:  I can't talk anymore, I need to sleep
N: talks for another 15 minutes, more of the same
N:  You have time to see your friend tomorrow, but no time to even go for a walk with me.
Me:  I have to study for finals.  I am only seeing her tomorrow because we are graduating and she is moving away.
Me:  I said I am done with this conversation
N: "I love yous" mixed with more berating of my self/behavior
Me: I turn off the light, take a sleeping pill, set my alarm, and turn over.
N: finally leaves the room

After this conversation, I felt incredibly guilty... Like a horrible woman for withholding sex.  I no longer knew if I was doing the right thing, I could no longer think for myself. Am I just being self-righteous?  If I did give him sex, it would be about him and not us.  There really is no garuntee that sex would make our marriage better, is there?

The next day he is sorry for hurting my feelings.
I asked him if he even knows what he said that was so hurtful?
He did not, but the next time this comes up he will be more careful not to talk to me while he is angry.
Truthfully, we have been round and round on this.  He knows where I stand.  I have asked for respect, and space for healing.  
We are at an impass and I don't want to talk about it anymore.

Today he is very sweet to me, and I am wary of him, and at the same time I like him again.  I have such a difficult time with conflict that I want to believe his fantasies of the "ideal marriage" almost as much as he does.
I beat myself up for not seeing the forrest through the trees.

Wow!  I guess that turned into more venting/processing than anything.  I do  thank you for listening with patience.  It really helps to replay it, in that I can see manipulation more clearly... I think.  I know, it helps to feel heard. And I always appreciate you all's insight.

Peace, sjkravill

[Karin]

Hi Sjkravill,
You're bedtime story brought back painful memories for me.

I tried to be the 'therapist' to my N our whole married life but I couldn't re-train him. Not because I 'failed' but because he didn't want to be retrained.
Couldn't, wouldn't, it doesn't matter, he didn't. He went to therapy, he told me all the right words ('I'm trying..') and I watched for his actions to  change to match his words. Nothing really changed.
 
We have been separated now for nearly 2 years, and I did love him. What I didn't love was his disrespect for me.

Those bedtime conversations are incredibly stressful, I didn't realise how much so until I read your post and was reminded.
Don't feel guilty sjkravill, I can tell that your instincts are serving you well. You'll see that one day.
Best wishes to you,
Karin.

[sjkravill]

Thank you for your support...

Karin, I am so glad you said that it was not because you had failed.  THat is something I really struggle with.  I think to myself that I must be able to turn this around.  If I can't do it, I will have failed.  If I fail at this will I continue to fail?  Or this is the way it is because I have failed....  I forget that he came to me like this.  I forget that he is responsible for his own behavior. The line between his responsiblity and mine is so clouded for me.

If one does still love N, and the redeeming qualities of the relationship, (things other than the blatant disrespect) one can live in a relationship, one day at a time.

The question I struggle with is decisions for the long term.  
How do I know where this will go?  Is this (me setting and him respecting boundries) just a temproary growing pain for both of us?  Is it/can it/ or will  it change for the better?  How severely it will damage me to stay?  How will it help or hurt him if I don't stay?
 Strangely, I am different now than I was when I entered into this relationship.  I am less self-assured, less adventurous, less ambitous, more exhausted and bitter.  When I look back I can remember how the damage took place.  But I don't validate it as it is happening.  I try to deflect it, but some seeps through.  Can I stop it from seeping through?
How much is about his mistreatment, and how much of this is about my incompetence?  Does the answer to that matter? Can I heal with-in this relationship enough to stay and make it productive?

Well, enough of 20 questions for now...  Thanks for listening.  As always, I appreciate your wisdom.

[Anonymous]

Hi sjkravill --

Please take the following comments with a grain of salt, because I have not had to live with an N partner and so don't feel very qualified to  comment on your situation.

I just wanted to say that several of the things you mention in your posts concern me. One is his comment:

N: Don't use that reflective listening crap with me.

This comment to me sounds as though his acceptance of your efforts to change your relationship and how you communicate is fake -- that in reality he thinks it's all crap.

You take longer to heal than anyone I know.

This sounds as though he thinks the problem is with you, not him.

I don't know how much longer I can do this.

By "this", he may have meant being celibate, but it also suggests that he sees the changes you are trying to bring about in your relationship with him as temporary -- something that he has to tolerate for now but eventually will be able to abandon.

Strangely, I am different now than I was when I entered into this relationship. I am less self-assured, less adventurous, less ambitous, more exhausted and bitter.

This really concerns me, because it sounds as though the relationship is not just unfulfilling for you, but is actively damaging to you, and the longer it goes on the more damaged you will become.

I think to myself that I must be able to turn this around. If I can't do it, I will have failed. If I fail at this will I continue to fail? Or this is the way it is because I have failed.... I forget that he came to me like this. I forget that he is responsible for his own behavior. The line between his responsiblity and mine is so clouded for me.

A relationship is never just the responsibility of one person, and if a relationship ends, it's not necessarily a failure. In fact, if the relationship is causing you to become less self-assured, less adventurous, less ambitous, and more exhausted and bitter, then can you consider the possibility that ending the relationship would actually be a success for you because it would be a victory for self-preservation?

I offer these comments only as food for thought -- feel free to ignore them.

Guest

[Anonymous]

Sjkravill, for me, that 'failure' thing was a direct link back to the expectations of my parents for my marraige to never end up in divorce.  Divorce was a dirty word and anybody that was divorced was seen as inferior. So I believed that I 'would' be a failure/inferior if I left the marriage, because marriage is sacred, right?
Perhaps it's others expectations of you also that would make you believe you have failed?

Guest is right, how can you be a failure if you do something for your own survival? Do you need to let him destroy you in order to prove that you haven't failed?
He has failed you in that you now feel "less self-assured, less adventurous, less ambitious, more exhausted and bitter". What happened to his end of the marriage vows?
By his comments, he doesn't seem to feel any responsibility for you other than getting what he needs out of you to make his life pleasant.

You are not incompetent sjkravill, you are a feeling, caring, concerned and careful person. You are trying to do the right thing for yourself and your husband, but ultimately, you're entitled to what you want out of life too.  

Karin.

[sjkravill]

Wow!  Thank you both for your insight...

Clearly now, as it was not clear a few days ago, when he said
"Don't use that reflective listening crap with me"
should have told me that he was not interested in an adult conversation or a solution to the problem that would honor both of us.
Like a little boy, he just wanted to pitch a fit, mabye it would get him what he wanted.  When it didn't work he used thinly vailed guilt trips, threats and coercion, so sweetly demonstrated to him by his own father.

These conversations send me reeling.  Even if we are "making nice"  They lessen my overall trust and closeness with him... I am not sure if that can be or should be recovered.

Yes, I think it is the expectations of my family and community that Divorce = failure...  And I have ALWAYS had truble with the concept of failure.  One part of being voiceless for me was always doing everything right.  As to not attract any negative attention.  Everyone has such high expectations  of me.  It is very difficult to have the courage to struggle against such expectations.

I guess, if I look at the way you suggest, it doesn't matter whose fault it is... It matters that I do what I have to do in order to live well.  It doesn't matter if it is my incompetence.  If I do my best by him, what else can I do? Even if my best was perfect, he still has a choice in the matter. And it is extremely helpful when others help me to recognize that he has forsaken his vow in not respecting me.      

The part that I always forget is, what did happen to his end of the bargin?
While he says he is "trying" for me, actions always speak louder than words.  And his actions say that he has no intention of doing anything but alternating between sweet and nasty until he gets what he want.

As always, thanks for helping me process this...
Peace, sjkravilll

[pandora]

Hi,

Haven't posted for a while.  My H came home unexpectedly and my life has been a bit of a mess.  

The thought of a relationship, especially a marriage, ending as a "failure" is an issue that I face and am continuing to deal with.  I come from a conservative family background where divorce is generally disapproved of.  Fortunately for me, my family fully supports my decision to divorce.  That makes it easier, but I still am haunted by feelings that I failed somehow, if I had done something different, or been a different person, it could have worked.  

I know intellectually that nothing I did or didn't do could have made a difference in the end.  I really did try with all my heart and strength to hold it together.  There is nothing more I can do now but try to end it with some dignity and fairness for us both.  

I also set high expectations for myself, and I think this also comes from my upbringing.  But in the end, it is not so much about reaching expectations that yourself and others have for you, it is about doing your best, and being able to look at yourself in the mirror and know that you gave it your best shot, while also remaining true to yourself and fair to others.  

And sjkravil, you are right that it is not only your responsibility to hold it together - your H needs to step up to the plate.  And actions always show you someone's true intent, no matter what they might say.  

Hang in there!