Evolution on the Board

[Hopalong]

Hi PP,
I missed you. I am sorry I didn't say so earlier.
I do think about you. I think of your photo, that beautiful white room, your house, the P.O., and I wonder how it's going for you.

I really appreciate your bravery in digging into all this.
And I'm glad you're here.

I know you're uncomfortable and I think if you keep plugging on, keep risking a bit, that you'll find you can let go the letdowns and allow some pleasure to come through.

love
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Dear Pennyplant,

I'm sitting here staring at a blank notepad document with nothing to say.
Feels like an arrow went through the bulls-eye of the shy zone and rendered my verbal skills useless.
Daughter and I were reading something today about learning to draw with the right side of your brain. Well, I can't draw... and I can't seem to express what's buried over there on that right side, either.

Yes, I think it's about control... but I also think that this shyness/sensitivity business lies out of reach of that control, so I know it's not about pride.
If wanting to control is about wanting to matter, is that the same as saying that we want to have an impact on people because then we'll feel valuable?
And what's the standard of measurement? How would we quantify our effect on people?

Pennyplant, what would it take for you to matter to yourself?

I thought that I mattered to me once, but it was for all the wrong reasons... only to the extent that I could do well, that I could solve problems, that I could help people, raise a good family. I was driven by perfectionism, then driven by anger, then driven by alcohol, nearly into the ground...  and I still can't say that I matter to me, with all those things gone... because truly, I can't say for sure who I was.
I only know I'm not that person anymore. And I know that I matter to God... and that you matter to Him... along with all the other people in this world... and so I keep trying to reach out. Not because I think I can matter to anyone else, but because I know that's what God wants me to do.  He seems to know who I am alot better than I do and still I want to know what happened to that terrified, shy little girl. She didn't grow up... she just learned to wear masks and act out roles and survive.

That's how I dealt with being so sensitive... and yet I know that all along I felt just exactly as you describe. I didn't share anything and when I'd see hurt approaching, I'd leave. I just remembered a repeating dream as a little girl, where someone was after me and my solution was to play dead. That became a lifelong habit. Just don't let them see you blink or breathe... they'll go away.

You're expressing yourself alot better than I can at this level. This has been like pulling teeth and I don't know why. I'm not consciously trying to hide anything, it's just nearly impossible to draw it out. I think I am stingy about expressing myself to myself. My kids know more about this stuff than I do... but then they didn't grow up with my mother.

I don't know what's next, PP, but I'll sure keep trying. I'll think on this and do some serious reading on the sensitive, shame, shyness issues, with the goal of not spinning it around in my head, but letting it into my heart. I hope you'll keep writing, too.

Sorry this is such a mess.

Hope

[teartracks]

Hi PP,

Wanted to pass this link on.  It is about highly sensitibe people.  Dr. Aron takes a very positive approach in her writng about shy, sensitive people, saying they comprise 15 - 20% of the popultion and that some are actually extraverts.  Wow!  If you haven't already been to this site, it might be of interest.   

Hope you have a good work morning.  Geez 3:30 a m...don't know if I'd survive that.

Here's the link.
http://www.hsperson.com/pages/hsp.htm

tt

[towrite]

I am beginning to allow myself to open up and depend on this board. There's no place else I can talk about my mother and father without getting horrified stares, embarrassed glances at the floor, and no return calls. I have a hard time opening up - I intellectualize too much instead of just being be. The old fear of criticism, I guess. But the more I post here the more I feel myself relaxing and being me. I don't hear the haunting voice tapes here so much as I do in real life.

towrite

[teartracks]

towrite,

Calm in the midst of the storm...I agree, the board has the feel of a safe zone.  A place where I can have an emotional blowout or express exactly what is in my heart is pretty special.   It's special too that we can comfort each other at each juncture of healing and recovery.   

tt

[Ami]

Dear Penny.
  I think that you took the first step. You told about WHERE you were. You tried to look within and you expressed it. I have been doing that since I got here for one reason--- I was dying.
I could not eat, I gave up. I was skinny and sitting in a messy house. My H told the people that he worked with that he could not even bring them to the house-(lol).
  I had given up-- inside. no one understood my mother. Friends said,"Just forget about it. You have a nice life" I did have a nice life. I was just "not there'.My body was taking this "death"message,I think.
 God sent Maria over to pull me out. It was a Divine experience. She kept getting the impression to come to my house. . She pulled me up. She helped me get my house beautiful. She is an incredible "amateur" decorator.
We threw away the leather sofa that was ripped. I used to sit on that sofa----- .paralyzed. I would say,'I really need to fix up this place and the just 'sit there".
  When I  found people who had a mother like mine( on the board), I  was in heaven. Then, I realized that I could express myself here and people would understand. Towrite has it right. I had given up b/c of all the blank stares and embarrassed looks when I tried to explain about my life.       Where was I to go? I had been in a support group for 10  years. Even they did not understand my M.I tried all sorts of therapies that did not help. I tried it all . Nothing could touch that hurting place. Once I met people who had the N mother, I knew that I would be O.K., eventually.
   Then, I MADE myself tell my truths. Many people did not like it. It was not comfortable and some people tried to "shame " me in to being more "conventional". I persisted b/c I knew that it was life or death for me. It was not  'cute" little game.
   Now, I am on the way up. I think that I will get where  I want to go--- to be "real" and whole".
   This last post on toxic shame was a turning point for me. It was the biggest blocked area and the biggest"shame"
 Penny, I think that you have to simply make a decision that you are worth it--- to live and thrive. Whatever your issues are , other people WILL have them. My S told me this when some people were trying to shame me in to "shutting up" He said, Mom, ,with ALL those people on the board, SOMEONE has to have had a mother like yours."
   It is the same for you,Penny. Whatever your situation or feelings, someone( probably many people) will have them too.Then ,newcomers will come out and share ,also..
  I think that it is essential to have a few people that you can PM. Chances are some people Will be threatened by your honesty and try to squelch you. If you don't have support ( with the PM), you could give up and retreat in shame. WE know,only too well, how to retreat in  shame. That is Old behavior.
   I hope that you take small steps ,as you just did, to "live", Penny. They(FOO and other N's)took
enough from you.                                                           Love     Ami

[Certain Hope]

Pennyplant    Good morning... I hope you're having a good day, despite the early wake-up.

Gaining Strength made a post on her thread about "confronting a person with boundary confusion" which is opening the passages for me to some crucial issues. She wrote:
"It is the give and take that I long for.  It definitely was not available here.  That's what the problem is with this line Open your  heart to me and I will fill you with love.   
That is not a relationship. 
That is a kind of dominance.  At best it is a parent-child.  Equals don't "fill [one another] up" that give and receive.  I fill my son with love because I brought him into this world and gave him life and expect nothing back from him at his stage.  But that doesn't work with equals."

Okay, so... sounds good, doesn't it? But what of that sort of give and take within ourselves?
Are we willing to let one portion of our "self" dominate all the rest or will we teach that (stubborn ?) portion to receive - not only from others, outside,
but also from the "parts" of ourselves which have accomplished so much in this life, filling the roles of wife, mother, employee, etc...

I know that counting my blessings is a wise way to invigorate my outlook and awaken a thankful heart.
How about introducing that fearfully shy little armored creature to the facts/blessings of life?

Shame, shyness, fear... all tangled up together.  I have no wretched abuse in my childhood, so what's my excuse? This is what I've asked myself... and now I realize...
 What I've been ashamed of is being shy. Such a vicious circle!
So I can reach out to a point, until that ornery shadow of shyness whispers, "don't forget me... I'm still here." 
Of course, that's not something which is easily admitted, because when you condemn your self for being so "sensitive", the imagination fills in the blanks with all things negative concerning how others will look down on you.

But you know what? Here's my theory:
Everyone feels this way.
Some are just better at masking it than others.
Whether it's covered by humor, by calloused nonchalance, by doing/fixing/helping, by retreating, or by forging ahead oblivious to consequences
(I've tried all of those methods) "it" remains.
For whatever reason, you do not seem to have constructed such a remedy for yourself and you're left feeling very exposed and vulnerable.

Because I deliberately, consciously tried to recall those feelings last night, for a long moment, I felt the same.
But this morning, Pp, the recognition dawned anew that, in my heart, I believe every single human being who's ever lived has faced this struggle.
Some face it down and grow healthy, some build a saferoom in the home of their hearts and lock it up, and some continue to live in fear that "it" will rule their lives forever... until... when?
Until it's laid completely bare before someone who will not stomp all over it.
I don't think that has to be another human being, Penny. For me, it's been God and my husband, to some extent, but mostly... I see now... it has to be me, myself... who is willing to look that shy, avoidant, painful fear directly in the eye and not turn away.

When things end awkwardly, it's not because of you, Pennyplant. It's because people don't want to look themselves in the eye.
You can know that by guaging your own reactions and responses to yourself, as I am seeing in me... and refuse to look away.
Corny phrases always bug me, but here's one I finally understand... you must be present for yourself... be there for you.

No looking away.

With love,
Hope

[Ami]

Dear Hope,
  That was so profound. I need to re read it several  more times. However, a few things struck me on the first few readings. One is the Scripture---- There is no temptation taken you which is common to man ....."This means that we all have the same issues.
    Today, I talked to a neighbor that I never talked to before when I was walking( yelling----- excuse me Hops) at my Yorkie. As we were talking, I could see in  her face, the SAME issues we talk about on the  board. The board helps me to take in what Hope said--- That we all have the same issues. We have to learn to overcome N "pollution" is probably ALL there is. That is probably all that is wrong with us. We were polluted by N's.
   Hope, I used to feel guilty ,too, b/c I did not have overt abuse. I thought that I was just "whining". However, Vaknin talks about the cerebral N. That is what I had. It really damaged me even though it was not "overt'.I need to honor that I was abused -- not minimize it.when you talk about your parents,Hope, I see abuse. I really do.
   Thanks Hope for your post                              Love     Ami

[Certain Hope]

Hi tt,

The link you gave, along with several other sites, are the ones I've skimmed recently on the topic of sensitivity.
Still haggling with a reluctance to delve into it too deeply, as though somehow... giving credence to it may cause me to
disintegrate. Also, still struggling to maintain a balance between proper introspection and spiritual accountability. In other words,
how much is too much? Thank you for posting the link here.

towrite,

It's those horrified stares and embarrassed, downward glances that I feel myself giving to myself when I allow for a moment's consideration of the fear and sensitivities within.
Knowing that this buried stuff continues to wield power over the conscious mind... well, I think that's where all the intellectualizing comes from. It's a form of resistence which is really futile and only masks underlying symptoms, but such a tough old habit to break!
I'm so glad that you're feeling some relief from it... and the relaxation to simply be. It's like a tug-a-war, isn't it? Dip toes into the emotional pond and then recoup by intellectualizing... oh, I am so ready for the cease-fire, because a battle it is! Integration is a wonderful concept and with people like you here, it does seem possible   I'm so glad you're a part of this group!

Ami,

Thank you for the Scripture... that's from 1st Corinthians chapter 10.
The passage reads:   "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. Therefore, my beloved,  flee from idolatry."

What this tells me is that I have just as much innate capacity for unhealthy narcissism as any human being.
In other words, I see NPD as another temptation common to man, into which some choose to plunge, head over heels.
Because of my own very narcissistic upbringing,  I'm very aware that I need to guard my own heart against N'ism.
So when I whine (and I know that I do)  in the course of recovering from the effects on me of pathological narcissism in others,
I feel that it's up to me to ensure that checks and balances are in place, lest I "flee into idolatry".
 
You see, I do not believe that there is any "pure" inner entity to be recovered from N-pollution, because I believe that all human beings are mortally polluted by an inherited sin nature. So for me, the solution to the ultimate decontamination is Jesus and the new life, new spirit He gives. What I'm actually working on here is more like damage control... so that I can be free to walk out the new life and salvation which HE worked into me without tripping over all the hidden leftovers from an upbringing that so desperately lacked healthy, Godly input.

My own perspective on this is:   I'm still raising my children - 2 grown and gone, 2 still at home - and I have no doubt that I've passed on my own neuroses and dysfunctions to the extent that I seem to have been asleep in unawareness for much of the past 25 years.
That is not my mother's fault and it's not my exes' fault and it's surely not God's fault. What it is, in my view... is life in a sinful, fallen world.
I'm just thankful that God is so patient and merciful to allow me these opportunities and places and people, at home and here on the board, to uncover the hidden traps.

Anyhow, I know what you mean by talking with your neighbor and seeing in her face the same issues that we discuss on this board.
I see it too, now... it's everywhere... it's in all of us... and, in my opinion, becoming unpolluted at the deepest level is a matter of recognizing it within ourselves as much as in others.
That is what my mother was not willing to see - her own deep lack - and what she did not, could not, teach me.
She sees herself as superior because of her fine choices and magnificent dignity (aka Pride) which prevents her from admitting to her flaws and failures, and consequently shuts off every God-given emotion which allows for genuine intimacy. All that's left is a critical spirit and a miserable judmental heart which cannot feel connected to anyone. That's a shame... but it's not my shame, you know?
Neither is your mother's shame in your account.

That is good news, but it's not the Gospel...
and I still need that Saviour who has removed the shame which legitimately was in my own account.
Seems like properly filing the shame and owning my own account is what I'm up to now.
Thanks for posting and sharing your thoughts with me.

Love,
Hope

[pennyplant]

I know you're uncomfortable and I think if you keep plugging on, keep risking a bit, that you'll find you can let go the letdowns and allow some pleasure to come through.


Yes, Hops, I am very uncomfortable.  Thoroughly ill at ease.  I am still absorbing an interesting lesson from work last week and also a rude shock to our household budget this week--both events activated my depression and I'm struggling with that "as we speak".  So anyway, quickly this morning I read your post and then just as quickly I checked my horoscope by Rob Brezsny (I just like that kind of stuff) and this is what he had to say about Gemini's upcoming week:

In his poem "The Two Trees," William Butler Yeats says that one tree is holy and grows within the heart. Its branches and trembling flowers thrive on joy. The changing colors of its fruit please the stars, and its leaves give the waves their melody. The second tree has broken boughs and blackened leaves, and is full of "the ravens of unresting thought." I bring this to your attention, Gemini, because in the coming week it really is up to you and your free will which of these two trees you spend most of your time with.

I can see this image and feel it going on in me.  I, of course, want to spend my time with the holy, joyous, fruit tree.  But the tree full of ravens keeps distracting me.

I would say I have never taken the kinds of risks that would allow the pleasure to come through.  Not voluntarily anyway.  I don't really know why I see it as such a risk, but I do.  It seems to be part of my cell structure.

I guess I keep coming back to this place even when I'm hurting because this is my best bet.  This is the only place that has ever made a real difference.  In spite of the disappointments.  Maybe other people who haven't come back as regularly have found a good therapist or good friend or something creative that feeds their soul.  I haven't found that yet.  If I ever knew how to find those things, then I must have forgotten.

As far as I've come, I have a long ways to go.

[pennyplant]

I thought that I mattered to me once, but it was for all the wrong reasons... only to the extent that I could do well, that I could solve problems, that I could help people, raise a good family. I was driven by perfectionism, then driven by anger, then driven by alcohol, nearly into the ground...  and I still can't say that I matter to me, with all those things gone... because truly, I can't say for sure who I was.  I only know I'm not that person anymore. And I know that I matter to God... and that you matter to Him... along with all the other people in this world... and so I keep trying to reach out. Not because I think I can matter to anyone else, but because I know that's what God wants me to do.  He seems to know who I am alot better than I do and still I want to know what happened to that terrified, shy little girl. She didn't grow up... she just learned to wear masks and act out roles and survive.

Yes, yes, Hope.  All of this, except I didn't have to battle alcohol (one good thing about having a weak stomach  ).  And I probably would put anger first before perfectionism.  But now the anger is something else.  It doesn't consume me as it once did.  I think that is good but it does put more of the responsibility for change onto me and my brain.

What would  make me matter to me?  I have no idea.  I have never mattered to me.  Probably because I never mattered to my parents--at least not when it would have made a difference in my development into a person.  Later, sure they had "uses" for my services as a dutiful daughter.  And later still my father finally figured it out.  That I mattered as a person and he was lucky that person was his daughter.  He finally figured it out when he was dying.  All the other "stuff" fell away and became unimportant.

So, I was 43 years old when that happened.  It took all that time to have happen something that should have happened the first moment each of them looked into my eyes at 7:35 am on Sunday, June 18th 1961.  I spent all that time learning the wrong things about who and what I am.

I don't think it will be a thing I do or get that will make me matter to me.  It is probably more what Hops suggested, that I must let it in.

It's funny to me, Hope, that when you said you would have to do some reading on these subjects of sensitivity and shyness and so on, my first thought was, "I am not going to read anything else at all about it!"  I don't want more names of conditions, or reasons for neurological differences, or tests that will make me freeze when I take them.  One of the tests here I took twice.  I answered sincerely each time.  I took the test twice within about ten minutes.  The first result just didn't ring true to me.  I forced myself the second time to be very, very honest about my answers.  The second result rang true and it was almost the opposite of the first result.  All that effort because I have a very hard time knowing myself or revealing myself to ME!

It is good to read up on this stuff.  But with me I noticed that getting that name for what I know in my heart is happening doesn't really give me the relief I seek.  I need real progress over time.  Then I look back and see the contrast and that is what gives me relief.

I see you have another post, Hope.  I will read some more and see what today's ideas are about.

Pennyplant

[pennyplant]

TT!

I was just saying that I don't want to take any more tests or read anything technical and then I see this gem:

they comprise 15 - 20% of the popultion and that some are actually extraverts.

For all my being such a twisted-up little person obsessing about what to say, what to do, how to act.... there are many people who know me as being a very loud and expressive person.  I told someone once how insecure I am and somewhat shy and she just looked at me and said, "I would've thought you are an extrovert!"

I might have to look at this test.  It might teach me something.  It would be interesting to understand how a shy person, which I do think is my basic nature, could act extroverted at times.  I really don't know what is going on with me much of the time.  It's not easy, that I do know.

[pennyplant]

This thread is helping me a great deal.  I have been having trouble with so many things at once and my depression has been a cloud over it all.  Now it feels like I have a clearer direction to go in thanks to what everyone has been bringing up here.  I will have to take the next step soon--choosing something to share and post about that I might rather keep inside.  It is hard to know where to start--I might start with something that happened at work this past Friday having to do with projection and scapegoating.  Not sure.  This is hard for me to be so genuine on purpose.  It will take some thinking.  These posts that people have shared on this thread are so very helpful.  People have responded to each other in wonderful ways.

I think if so many of you can be brave enough to try these things, to try and trust each other here, I can try to do the same.  It is very hard to just start being a different kind of person out there in 3D.  Face to face, people are not so willing or forgiving or in sync.  Always I have just put myself out there at their mercy.  And "they" were often merciless.  I want to see that we are all the same inside.  It must be true as Hope has said.  It just makes sense.  But all the masks distract me and trick me at times.

I think I have been judging myself as well.  Wondering why I feel so out of it all the time as I watch others share in fun conversations both here and out there.  But I'm just not as far along yet.  I haven't been very patient with myself and I should be.  It's not going to be the same pace or the same style for everyone.

Pennyplant

[Certain Hope]

Pennyplant,

I haven't read your last post yet, but wanted to go ahead and put this in here before it turns into a cyber-book.
I've been typing off and on here in notepad, between kp duty, etc, since I read your earlier post, so here it is.
Hugs to you.

Pennyplant,

About this: "But now the anger is something else.  It doesn't consume me as it once did.  I think that is good but it does put more of the responsibility for change onto me and my brain."

Yes. I felt very exposed without the anger for a long while. Without it, and without the perfectionistic drive, it seemed there was nothing to propel me into forward movement. I could still smile and find enjoyment, but for the most part, I just felt... deflated... and helpless. It was like... I can't "be good" to feel good, I can't "do well" or "help others" to feel better, I can't nurse a grudge against x, y, or z... what's left?

I'm so sorry that your parents never saw you. I'm certain that if they'd seen you as the individual you are, they would have appreciated you so much, as you say - when they looked into your eyes on the day of your birth.
You're a year younger than I... those were the days, huh.

I agree with the not doing or getting to find value in you... but rather, letting it in. That's something I could never do before, because I learned from my mother that people are not trust-worthy, that things and degree of control are what made you valuable. I rejected the things and went full tilt into the attempts to control.

You wrote: "It's funny to me, Hope, that when you said you would have to do some reading on these subjects of sensitivity and shyness and so on, my first thought was, "I am not going to read anything else at all about it!"  I don't want more names of conditions, or reasons for neurological differences, or tests that will make me freeze when I take them."

My thoughts and feelings exactly! That's just why I've been avoiding this stuff like the plague. I do not want any more of it either... and last night, in trying to type to you, I felt frozen, inept, completely out of touch, and... helpless.

If you took the test on the link tt gave here, that's the one I took the other day
and told Izzy... I checked every one except the one about caffeine, since I haven't avoided it, so don't really know the full impact of its effects.
As I considered the questions, I had to dig back to who I was before I learned to apply a number of coping mechanisms, but it wasn't too difficult. Free of alcohol (thank God for your weak stomach!) I am more "myself" and definitely more aware of sensitivities than for years previously.
Realizing that I have not changed much inwardly from that shy and sensitive little girl of 40 years ago was startling... and I was dismayed. So I didn't go back and read anymore, but the awareness that I've been avoiding it has been haunting me. Writing to you last night, I felt the terror at having to face the little girl who's still hiding behind the shrubbery and shielding her eyes from the bright lights and aching for some respite from all the noise. Good grief, that's my mother... she's the one who can't have any music playing, won't allow anyone else to handle the remote control, must have utter dominion over her entire surroundings at all times. Freaked me out.
And this morning... I saw a new perspective, through the eyes of someone who wasn't exhausted and frantically trying to uncover the truth about this disconnectedness. I saw me... in my home, with my responsibilities, in my quasi-messy little nooks and crannies, with the ability to get things done when necessary and the need to locate the ability to stop trying to find a quick fix for every problem. That's me. There's a you in there like that, too, Pp, but I think maybe that I felt last night what you're experiencing...
and it felt almost like I'd developed an extreme sensitivity to myself.
Like an allergic reaction... or a rejection reaction, after an organ transplant.
Who's rejecting what over which issue is something that's different for each of us, I think... and yet it all comes down to what you've said here, I think -
looking back and seeing the contrasts. In the Bible, it's called renewing the mind. The spirit is made new by grace through faith, but the mind needs complete re-training and renewing to the truth which doesn't crumble, even when we feel ourselves on shaky ground.
And about your post to tt (reply #44)  - me, too.

Hope

[pennyplant]

Well, that was an easy test!  I checked off 22 of the items.  If I'm understanding right, it sounds like shyness can be a coping mechanism for dealing with all the stimuli.  So, an extrovert who is highly sensitive could respond with shy behaviors.  I can't say I know whether that is true of me or not.  I can remember some very early episodes where I felt scrutinized or on display and responded in a shy way.  This would be very early, toddler years.  There is a lot to reconstruct, though.  It seems to me that I was surrounded by people with difficult personalities and, me being so alert to these things, I just automatically catered to their needs.

I have a lot of my baby pictures and have looked at them many times over the years.  It seems to me that the happy and carefree facial expressions on my baby face soon became alert and worried expressions, by about age two.  I know by then my mother had two babies to take care of and was already dissatisfied with her marriage.  None of it was meeting her expectations.  I suppose I thought I had to be "good".  Who was I to add to the burden?  Nobody important.

I feel very supported by everyone who has posted on this subject.  I wonder what Beth will think of the twists and turns.  This has been so helpful.

Pennyplant