Is It Always N Behavior to Violate Others' Boundaries?

[BonesMS]

Was this more telling than I thought at the time (and why should I remember it so clearly, and specifically, over the last few days: rhetorical)...this happened quite a few years ago...we were talking about people who have defective personalities (neither of us knew much about the subject). She said to me, there are people whose personalities are so fragile that it's like a wall full of holes, and they have to keep plugging up the holes, all the time, to keep themselves going: and as she was describing this in detail, she turned away from me and demonstrated the wall, which was higher than her, and her hands plugged up the holes, quickly, a hole at the top, one in the middle, one in the bottom and repeating itself, her hands moving around the imaginary wall, showing how the holes keep appearing and you have to keep plugging them up, all the time. As she spoke her eyes stayed on the wall, she didn't look at me until she stopped and turned back to me, to tell me, that's how they are. I remembered this so clearly in an instant and told my H who was pretty astonished.  I bet you know what I'm talking about too, Bones. In retrospect, it was a very interesting, if pathetic and educational event. My memory's ability to tell me things at certain times is also interesting!

Thanks, Freshwater.

I was trying to visualize the scene as you described it.  It appears that they are so focused on plugging up the holes in their own psyche that they are incapable of noticing anything, or anyone else, around them.

Also, to add my observation to the Psychology Today article....I felt it did not go far enough.  I wish it had discussed the children who are born to these Narcissists and how dealing with a Narcissistic Womb-Donor/Sperm-Donor impacts the next generation.

Bones

[BonesMS]

One of my passions, that I'm working on building a home-based business on, is genealogy.  The following link gave me a LOT of surprises on so many levels!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   

http://www.suite101.com/content/president-barack-obamas-french-ancestry-a292687

[BonesMS]

Checking in........

[sKePTiKal]

I wish it had discussed the children who are born to these Narcissists and how dealing with a Narcissistic Womb-Donor/Sperm-Donor impacts the next generation.

Ya know Bones, we are a slightly special case... us children of wackos. It's like being raised by wolves when one is a plump juicy chicken, isn't it?

But it DOES get better; we get better. I think you might be like me - getting better is the BEST revenge. It's also like a vaccination against ever being so affected by it, in the future. It still sucks, mind you, to have to deal with an N... but it no longer throws ya for such a loop that it takes years to recover.

[Hopalong]

Thanks for that article, Bones.
It was good to read something that went beyond the DSM-IV "checklist of behaviors".

Good one.

Hope you have a good day.

xo
Hops

[BonesMS]

I wish it had discussed the children who are born to these Narcissists and how dealing with a Narcissistic Womb-Donor/Sperm-Donor impacts the next generation.

Ya know Bones, we are a slightly special case... us children of wackos. It's like being raised by wolves when one is a plump juicy chicken, isn't it?

But it DOES get better; we get better. I think you might be like me - getting better is the BEST revenge. It's also like a vaccination against ever being so affected by it, in the future. It still sucks, mind you, to have to deal with an N... but it no longer throws ya for such a loop that it takes years to recover.

Thanks, P.R.

Yes, We know, all too well, what it's like and what it takes to recover.  I was looking at this from the perspective of educating others who don't have a clue and hassle us about WHY we don't do "thus-and-such", (e.g. "get over it", "do what the N demands", "respect the N because they birthed you", etc. etc. ad nauseum).

[BonesMS]

Thanks for that article, Bones.
It was good to read something that went beyond the DSM-IV "checklist of behaviors".

Good one.

Hope you have a good day.

xo
Hops

Thanks, Hops.

Personally, I hope they KEEP NPD in the next version of the DSM.  We need for it to STAY there so it would give US a VOICE!

[Guest]

Thanks for your reply Bones, and yes, they're incapable.

[BonesMS]

Thanks for your reply Bones, and yes, they're incapable.

You're welcome.

To add to my earlier comments, I think they are so incapable of noticing anything amiss that when you bring an issue to their attention, e.g. not hearing what you just said, all you would get would be a glassy-eyed blank stare and/or denial that any such thing occurred.

As you may be aware, I often read the advice columns and the first letter in today's Annie's Mailbox was from a letter writer whose daughter is LC with her.  The letter writer couldn't understand why her daughter treats her this way.  (A LOT of detail was left out of the letter.)  I couldn't help but think to myself, if you are a suspected boundary-violating N, that would be EXACTLY WHY she's gone LC but you still won't notice that she has said 'NO' to your nonsense several times which left her no choice!  However, the commenters below the letters didn't really get the possibility of the letter writer being an invasive Nparent.

[Guest]

Yes I've seen that Bones. Sometimes too I have said things three consecutive times to this person before she actually heard them - simple things, not emotionally-charged.

The idea of someone saying: why is x doing this to me? instead of: why is x avoiding me, is there a problem they have, are they okay? ..... says it all really. The Beatles knew it with She's Leaving Home.

[BonesMS]

Yes I've seen that Bones. Sometimes too I have said things three consecutive times to this person before she actually heard them - simple things, not emotionally-charged.

The idea of someone saying: why is x doing this to me? instead of: why is x avoiding me, is there a problem they have, are they okay? ..... says it all really. The Beatles knew it with She's Leaving Home.

I remember that song!

Sometimes, even saying three consecutive times doesn't always get through.  One example involved a now-ex-friend who insisted on turning up, UNINVITED, and parking her car in my neighbor's RESERVED space or in the Fire Lane!  I kept telling her that my neighbors don't like this and to please STOP!  The last time I spoke to her face to face, I got REALLY PISSED OFF because, as usual, she IGNORED EVERYTHING I HAD SAID and attempted to FORCE me to do what SHE wanted AND IMPOSING ON MY NEIGHBORS AT THE SAME TIME!

I had been hit with the Flu and developed Asthmatic Bronchitis on top of it.  I was contagious and was following doctor's orders to remain in bed and push fluids.  This now-ex-friend calls me to ANNOUNCE she's coming over!  (Doesn't even bother to ask if this is a good time to visit or not!)  I told her, POINT BLANK, do NOT come over here!  I have the Flu, plus Bronchitis, I'm contagious and I do NOT want to expose others to this and then have you, in turn, expose your 90+year old mother to this.  She shows up at the front door of my condominium anyway, calls me through the intercom and DEMANDS that I get out of bed and come to the door of the building!!!  I buzzed her in and told her to get her a$$ downstairs to my door as I had a bone to pick with her.

I bluntly told her that she is ONLY to come, when and IF she is invited!  IF she is invited, she WILL park in the designated Visitor Area!  Her response was to complain that the Visitor Parking was INCONVENIENT!  I gave her a FINAL warning that if she turns up again, UNINVITED, and parks in either a Reserved space or a Fire Lane, my neighbors can and WILL call the police, plus the tow truck, and have her car ticketed and towed!

Did she listen?  NO!  She announced that she would simply have her mother in the car so that they wouldn't DARE touch her car!     I announced I would call Adult Protective Services on her lead a$$ and told her to leave!  I terminated the friendship because I finally had ENOUGH!

[Guest]

Wow Bones, what a Nut!

Well done with your final threat, fantastic 

[BonesMS]

Wow Bones, what a Nut!

Well done with your final threat, fantastic 

Thanks Freshwater!

I realize now she was definitely a NUTCASE who believed everything must revolve around HER!  Sheesh!

[sKePTiKal]

Bones, where was your "early warning system" when you let her be a friend in the first place?

Oh well, we all make mistakes - me included. Somewhere I ran across an idea I like, about a way to think about our social interactions that's helped me a lot. I tended to be so starved for attention and lonely, that I didn't use any criteria whatsoever about people I let myself get involved with. I would overshare, or be a clam, I just got it all wrong - mostly in doormat mode. I got involved with people I should've stayed far, far away from. This image really got me to think about "organizing" myself in connection with other people in my life.

You, yourself are at the center of your "inner circle". The only people who get into the inner circle are those you know you can trust, who are as protective of you as you are of them, the people who are mutually supportive with you. For me, this is my Ds (although one has only recently been invited in; long story)... my hubs... his brother & SIL... a handful of old friends that I've kept in touch with... hubs' D and her family. Even a few of you people here. This is the circle of people that can tell me I'm an idiot and why, and we can even get mad at each other - make up & get over it - and go on.

That circle is inside another circle - further away from you and less intimate. These are people I do business with and rely on; there is a pretty high level of trust here also. It includes people I see socially on a regular basis - some are family, neighbors, etc.

Next circle out, might be acquaintances... people I see infrequently, don't do much with, or our paths simply don't cross much. They don't know much more than facts about me - they don't know "me", in other words.

Etc.     I know, this sounds overly formal and people interactions just aren't always like that. But, because of my confusion over boundaries... and the mis-impression or misunderstanding I had about how we are always supposed to be the "same person" with everyone... I never learned that it was OK for me to be one person to business associates, someone else to my hubs/Ds, someone else yet again with myself... it's like having different wardrobes - my 3 piece menswear tailored suits are for certain situations, my funky artsy hippie stuff for relaxed social events, and I tend to wear my jammies till noon now unless I have an appointment - just because I want to and I CAN. The "real me" shows through all those different roles and wardrobes... and is how I am expressed in functionally different situations.

Each circle is like a boundary and has appropriate levels of trust and sharing, involvement, etc. And of course, I design what those are for each circle. Sometimes, people get bumped from a closer circle, out to the fringes depending on their behavior. Sometimes, they choose to go there themselves - that's fine; it's part of how this all works. Anyway, I thought I'd share the idea because when one is building a "safe" inner circle... this is kinda the concept behind it.

[BonesMS]

Bones, where was your "early warning system" when you let her be a friend in the first place?

Oh well, we all make mistakes - me included. Somewhere I ran across an idea I like, about a way to think about our social interactions that's helped me a lot. I tended to be so starved for attention and lonely, that I didn't use any criteria whatsoever about people I let myself get involved with. I would overshare, or be a clam, I just got it all wrong - mostly in doormat mode. I got involved with people I should've stayed far, far away from. This image really got me to think about "organizing" myself in connection with other people in my life.

You, yourself are at the center of your "inner circle". The only people who get into the inner circle are those you know you can trust, who are as protective of you as you are of them, the people who are mutually supportive with you. For me, this is my Ds (although one has only recently been invited in; long story)... my hubs... his brother & SIL... a handful of old friends that I've kept in touch with... hubs' D and her family. Even a few of you people here. This is the circle of people that can tell me I'm an idiot and why, and we can even get mad at each other - make up & get over it - and go on.

That circle is inside another circle - further away from you and less intimate. These are people I do business with and rely on; there is a pretty high level of trust here also. It includes people I see socially on a regular basis - some are family, neighbors, etc.

Next circle out, might be acquaintances... people I see infrequently, don't do much with, or our paths simply don't cross much. They don't know much more than facts about me - they don't know "me", in other words.

Etc.     I know, this sounds overly formal and people interactions just aren't always like that. But, because of my confusion over boundaries... and the mis-impression or misunderstanding I had about how we are always supposed to be the "same person" with everyone... I never learned that it was OK for me to be one person to business associates, someone else to my hubs/Ds, someone else yet again with myself... it's like having different wardrobes - my 3 piece menswear tailored suits are for certain situations, my funky artsy hippie stuff for relaxed social events, and I tend to wear my jammies till noon now unless I have an appointment - just because I want to and I CAN. The "real me" shows through all those different roles and wardrobes... and is how I am expressed in functionally different situations.

Each circle is like a boundary and has appropriate levels of trust and sharing, involvement, etc. And of course, I design what those are for each circle. Sometimes, people get bumped from a closer circle, out to the fringes depending on their behavior. Sometimes, they choose to go there themselves - that's fine; it's part of how this all works. Anyway, I thought I'd share the idea because when one is building a "safe" inner circle... this is kinda the concept behind it.

Morning, P.R.

Point of clarification:

This now-ex-friend was someone I first met, and befriended, when I was only 15 years old and starting my first year in high school.  At the age of 15, I knew NOTHING about Narcissistic Personality Disorder and I was still trapped in a hell-hole at my house-of-origin, (notice that I cannot call it a home as it was NEVER a home for me.  I was NEVER welcome there.)  At 15, I was still trying to figure out where I belonged and had no answers.

Bones