Author Topic: standing up to an N  (Read 10631 times)

mrt

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standing up to an N
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2004, 03:33:08 AM »
Dawning,

My dealings with my N mother have taught me never give her any fuel for her anger. A long letter will just add to the fire.  

My mother in law who is very wise told me a story that when she young, she sent a letter to a relative letting her know how she felt. (She was peeved with her for something) Well anyway after the lady died many years later,  her family were going through her things and they found that letter that was sent so many years before.  She had kept it all those years.

If I were to send my mother a letter she would keep it until she died. No doubt about it.  It wouldn't help my cause one lousy bit anyway. I have no voice. I realized that finally.

 My mother would take the letter and would read it and re-read it and be wounded and re-wounded  Revelling in the pain. It would be all about her. The message that I would be trying to relay (I.E.  Mom - You are toxic to me -you hurt me)   would get flipped  in her mind anyway. She would turn it around and say that I was toxic to her - never seeing my points, never seeing that she was hurting me, never seeing that I was not an extension of her and had my own life,wants, dreams &  desires,  never seeing that not everything I did was about her, basically never SEEING.

I hated talking to my mother on the phone too. It got so bad that she once said that I was a "phone retard". The fact of the matter is that I was censoring myself at every sentence before I said it. Will this hurt her feelings? Will she take this the wrong way? Will she read between the lines and read something into what I'm saying that I didn't intend? Will this or that offend her? Heaven forbid I offend her - I'll never hear the end of it. - She'll use this against me for ever. She'll drag this up 20 years from now. It got to the point that I could barely speak - My mind was working overtime just trying to calculate what to say and finally I could barely say anything -because EVERYTHING was about /against/ her.

Nothing I can say to reveal myself gets through. I doubt that it ever will. I gave up trying to tell her how I feel & what I think. It is irrelavant anyway to her. She is a  black hole in my life. I've thrown so much energy down the drain, so much time and effort. It got me nowhere. We are now estranged today because of what "I've" done / or not done. (in her mind)

 We are estranged today because "I" quit giving. I cut off the one way supply. We are at a standstill. I've got nothing more to tell her. I've got nothing more to share.  I've got nothing more that I want to say  that I haven't already TRIED to say in the past.  If she doesn't want to know who I am,  then I don't want her to know who I am - I don't care anymore.

Should you give up on having a voice with her? "The voice that is welling up and wants to come out" - probably so. Why waste your time anymore? Will it get you the results that you need? Will it give her fuel to burn hotter? Will it do you any good in the long run? Will you guys be closer or more distant?

  I can certainly empathize with you. Let your voice be heard here.

mrtraced

Dawning

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standing up to an N
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2004, 05:57:15 AM »
Thanks to all of you who have replied thus far.  I haven't been able to spend much time writing today but I've read all the replies.  THANKS for your support.  

Will be back later.  Hold down the fort, fellow-Swans. :D

~Dawning
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Dawning

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standing up to an N
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2004, 07:22:05 PM »
Thanks for all the replies thus far.   I also realized that what I have been saying in my heart/mind since I was a little girl is, "if she only knew what she was doing, she would stop."  So when New Guest wrote
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There's no doubt that your mom is hurting you, that she doesn't play fair. From what you say, that is simply the way she is. The way she chooses to be.
I wondered last night, if she is choosing or doing it all unconciously or somewhere in between and I am curious - in a weird objective kind of way - to what degree she is aware of what she's doing.
There is a big part of me (maybe the little girl part) that still questions her behaviour as  *I wonder if she knows what she is doing?*  I look forward to participating on Rob's thread when I get back.  Over the past 4 years, the other family members have written her off or pulled far, far away.  She moved in with my grandmother when she lost her rental property.  

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My advice? Show her you're the kind of person who doesn't put up with emotional blackmail, childish tantrums from adults, and who takes responsibility for her own growth, thankyouverymuch.


Thanks for that, Wildflower and (and thanks for posting that link to another thread.)  I have felt it for a long time but felt alone and too vulnerable to stand up to her without support from somewhere so it is nice to hear it from someone else.  Showing her is difficult when we live a 16 hour plane ride away from one another.  But, yes, actions speak louder than words.  And she is angry at me now because I am not putting up with her behaviour.  My cousin's advice was to send the letter otherwise, she will think she can get away with it the next time.

P, your suggestion of what to write to her is spot-on.  Thanks for putting that up.  I helps me along.  "Keep drawing back."  

What I am coming around to accepting is that is possible (and definitely necessary now) to have a relationship with her only from a distance and   I can have emotional distance from her at any time.   This is going to take some work and, no doubt, will involve some rocky boat rides but I guess it is like a journey in a way - a new dance.  But I reckon she is going to howl and get really nasty at the beginning and that may last a long time..  How can it be that she relates to me the way a 6 year old relates to his/her mother?

I am still wondering about that letter.  Maybe I will post some snippets of it here.   :)   Thanks all of you for listening and offering the stuff of wisdom.  Thanks for being here.  I would like to answer some of the questions so gratefully received.  I am going to the mountains for 4 nights starting today and will be back Wednesday.  While gone, I will be re-reading Healing the Child Within and possibly the Boundaries book by Anne Katherine.  That one is also very good.

Love and Peace 2 all of you.

~Dawning
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

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standing up to an N
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2004, 11:22:12 PM »
Hi Dawning –

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OR spilling my guts to her once and for all by sending the long letter I finished writing last week… The danger in doing this is that she will take any response and run with it, using it as a way to get back inside my head.


I know it's terribly tempting to want to send that letter and believe that at some level your mother will grasp what you are feeling and how she has hurt you. I think you already know that it won’t happen.  

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What I wonder is how much can we, those of us who deal with Ns in our lives, influence our own outcome. For example, if you change the way you see your mother, you see her the way a stranger would. No emotional ties. Just as another human person. Would the outcome change for you? You mention that she acts in a horrible way, and then sometime later you do some action to make things better. A stranger wouldn't do the action to make things better. They'd take the situation for what it was. If they met a rude, selfish and careless person, they would distance themselves. No trying to fix. No making better. No getting involved. They wouldn't be terribly hurt or angry. It would be one more interaction with a rude person.


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I want from her what I can't have from her. I must have realized that in childhood and coped by telling myself that I shouldn't want anything and so, yes, I have deprived myself in certain areas that were important to me...and now I want to want a more meaningful life and I am wondering if part of that change may involve standing up to her.


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sending her a quick reply to today's email telling her there is nothing wrong with me and I won't have her continue to tell me so


Your and Guest Today’s posts above reminded me of a section in the book When You and Your Mother Can’t Be Friends, where the author talks about breaking the pattern of interaction you have with your mother by setting limits on her behaviour and controlling your own reaction rather than trying to change hers. I just loved these when I read them because they seemed so sane and right, but were things that I would never have thought of saying.  Here are three (I’m paraphrasing some of this):

Georgia, a high school principal with three young children, decided for Christmas to give all the women in her family nightgowns by mail order. “My mother was offended because I didn’t take the time to go to a store and get something different…She called me at school and started screamiing at me. I did what I always do and got defensive and said ‘Mom, I have to buy forty Christmas gifts – don’t you know the one thing I don’t have is time to shop for presents?’ Suddenly I realized that I was talking to a child, and I was acting like one. I thought, Why am I defending myself? Why should I have to be saying this? Finally, I said, ‘This is unacceptable behaviour and I never want to have a conversation like this with you again,’ and I hung up. I looked up and the office staff, who knew all about my mother, were standing there cheering.”...

When my daughter graduated from college, I threw a huge party for her. When my mother arrived, she looked at me and said, “I hate your hairdo.” Then she walked into the dining room and said, “Where’d you get that ugly flower arrangement?” I calmly replied, “If you’re going to talk to me like that, I don’t want you here.” She was shocked. But she didn’t say another critical word....

If your mother says, “Your brother calls me every day, you only call every other day,” you can say, “Yup. That’s right.” Your mother may be so startled by your agreeing with her that she’ll change the subject. Repeating your line enough times may discourage her from every bringing up the subject again. Let us say, however, that she pursues it – she tells you you’re “selfish,” rebuking you as though you were a misbehaving child. You can reply, “If you’re going to speak to me that way, I’m not going to call you for a while. I feel you’re being rude. I don’t like your tone. I won’t allow anyone to speak to me that way.”

The big point for me in all of these is that you don’t respond to the content of the criticism or attack – no matter what it’s about – by arguing or defending. Instead, you label your mother’s behaviour for what it is (rude, insulting, etc.) and say you won’t tolerate it. In your post above about sending a quick reply, why say, "There's nothing wrong with me"? That only gives her the opportunity to say, "Yes, there is." Could you just say, "Your comments are rude and insulting and if you ever say anything like that again I won't reply" -- or something like that?        
 
I don’t know how your mother would react to being treated like this – i.e. like a rude person whose behaviour you won’t tolerate. The point is that you don’t try to predict, control or change her reaction – you decide what your reaction will be and stick to it.

My personal experience is that every effort on my part to explain my feelings to my mother in the expectation that she will understand or sympathize have failed, and I no longer share anything with her that would make me vulnerable to her, but I have gotten some satisfaction from labelling her unacceptable behaviours.


Guest

Anonymous

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standing up to an N
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2004, 11:36:33 PM »
I just have to buy that book too. It's on my amazon list. And so so so thankyou for reminding me how much I need to read it plus that other one!?. That was a really comprehensive post 'guest'. They're some very good words, feedback and thoughts for you Dawning, and all of us dealing with (to put it mildly, how about crushed by) bullying, selfish, destructive, manipulative and even N family members friends a co-workers. What daya' reckon Dawning?

CG

Dawning

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standing up to an N
« Reply #20 on: May 01, 2004, 12:27:19 AM »
I absolutely must finish my packing but just wanted to say that I deeply appreciate the comments and the interest in this thread.  

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What daya' reckon Dawning?


I reckon I need to process it all but I let me just say that the support here is very empowering and I finally feel like I have found the well where I can drink water without being pushed aside.  I also reckon that this *well* is pretty big (testament to our big hearts, likely.)

And, CG, that is a very Aussie thing to say if I may make an observation.   :)

I'm missing the group already but I am doing the get-out-of-the-city thing and will be computer-less for several days.  I look forward to logging back in with more time to share.

~Dawning
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

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standing up to an N
« Reply #21 on: May 01, 2004, 12:38:16 AM »
Havyaevaredeni c.j.dennis

CG :D

Anonymous

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standing up to an N
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2004, 11:04:22 AM »
Quote from: Anonymous

The big point for me in all of these is that you don’t respond to the content of the criticism or attack – no matter what it’s about – by arguing or defending.


Hear, hear! My motto is: "Don't explain yourself." When I hear myself defending and explaining, I see I'm going down a bad road and immediately stop doing it.

Great post. I've never told my mother anything as blunt as this book describes, but she knows I am not to be trifled with. And I'm still scared of her! But I don't let her know it.

bunny

Wildflower

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standing up to an N
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2004, 11:28:07 AM »
Quote from: bunny
Quote
The big point for me in all of these is that you don’t respond to the content of the criticism or attack – no matter what it’s about – by arguing or defending.


Hear, hear! My motto is: "Don't explain yourself." When I hear myself defending and explaining, I see I'm going down a bad road and immediately stop doing it.


That's a great motto, bunny.  I think I'm only beginning to recognize when I'm on that road, but you're right.  Once you realize you're there, it's time to stop - immediately.  I'm wondering though, do you think this motto applies to everyone, or just your mother? {EDIT: I mean, I'm wondering whether, in some cases, explaining myself or even arguing and defending myself is the right thing to do - or if it's something I should avoid altogether, no matter who I'm talking to}

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"if she only knew what she was doing, she would stop."


I think I was doing this with my parents for a long time, too, and even now I slip into trying to get them to see my point of view if I'm tired or I forget ( :idea: forget what?  that they're not like my friends?  hmmm...need to think on that one).    It's tough though, isn't it?

Have a great weekend!!!  I'm so glad to hear you packing :D :D.

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

rosencrantz

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standing up to an N
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2004, 02:52:30 PM »
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I'm wondering though, do you think this motto applies to everyone, or just your mother?


Hi Wildflower - I'm wondering, too.  I wonder why?!  :wink:   :D

Here, now, recently, and a while back -

On another occasion, other people became irritated, involved, angry, sad, mean, hurtful when I was struggling with this issue. To explain or not to explain; to be or not to be (!)

.... uncomfortable, shameful, helpless is how it felt.  Some people think this should 'stop'.  Some people want to laugh.  Some people want to pack up and go home.  Some people want to stab, maim and kill.

Well, I guess that's their individual problem to deal with - it's a pity if it interferes with me and others trying to sort themselves out.

My goodness, some people were so spiteful, full of blame, and holier than thou on that previous occasion.  Now that I know how important the journey was, those attitudes just make me feel so angry!  I should have been angry about it back then - but I was just too ashamed and frightened - and they fed that shame and fear.  So I also now realise that their attitude was simply abusive and perpetuates the abuse already inflicted on our innocent hearts (ie when we were children).

For my money, if we (you and I) hadn't struggled - in all good heart - neither of us would have discovered what we did.

Sometimes we need to find a hard place to come up against for the truth to burst free.  

What do you think???????

I'm glad, really glad, we went on that short journey together.  I love the post you did earlier today.  And I know I've made a major breakthrough, too!!!!  

And I know something else even more clearly today - when two people are both hurting, they both want to be heard at the same time.  And that's going to be true in marriage.  And intimate close relationships of any kind.  And it's almost impossible for both parties to get heard at the same time.  So that explains a lot, too (tho I'm not sure what the solution is!).

Hugs, mega hugs - and thank you.   :)
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

rosencrantz

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standing up to an N
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2004, 03:25:46 PM »
Sorry!  I just checked the title of this thread. I guess my post was off topic - or was it!?

I keep coming up against the idea that my mother is suffering just as much as I am.  In a different way, yet the same.  She sees me through the filter of her neglectful mother; I see her as my mother but through the filter of a child's eyes - at age 2, 10, 19 and all the ages in between as the occasion dictates (otherwise I couldn't experience myself as her 'victim').  

Is it - ultimately - so very different???  Hmmm - only in terms of insight, I think.  She has none.  I struggle to 'get there'.  She's dangerous to me when she's an angry 2 year old and if I'm open to her (whatever age I'm experiencing her at).  So that's when NOT to get involved in attempting to 'reason'.  But two people who are 'capable' of being 'grownup' should be able to go the extra mile towards mutual understanding, even when hurting.

Challenging thoughts????
Hugs to all.
R
"No matter how enmeshed a commander becomes in the elaboration of his own
thoughts, it is sometimes necessary to take the enemy into account" Sir Winston Churchill

ellen

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about standing up to your mom...
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2004, 02:19:37 AM »
Hi- I just read here that there you guys have never found a benefit for standing up to a N mother. Not that I am in any way done, but I have been in therapy with my mom for over a year (instigated by me). The goal before and during has been to grow as a person in me. When I stand up to her, it was like the responses I've read here, but each time, something shifted, and it still is. She is never going to change, ever. But facing my own frustrations and hidden fears is like peeling this huge onion, and her "cutting" knife of behaviors ironically is helping me get to the core of myself. Its like training as an athlete or something, I just keep growing inside because of it. I do have my own therapist and have seen him for 4 years, so the outside voice and support helps, but she has shifted from a monster to a fuck-up, because I have shifted from internally terrified and defended to a greater sense of strength. It can be helpful, but difficult, but should not be ruled out as an option.

Wildflower

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standing up to an N
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2004, 02:48:17 AM »
Hi ellen,

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The goal before and during has been to grow as a person in me. When I stand up to her, it was like the responses I've read here, but each time, something shifted, and it still is. She is never going to change, ever. But facing my own frustrations and hidden fears is like peeling this huge onion, and her "cutting" knife of behaviors ironically is helping me get to the core of myself. Its like training as an athlete or something, I just keep growing inside because of it. I do have my own therapist and have seen him for 4 years, so the outside voice and support helps, but she has shifted from a monster to a fuck-up, because I have shifted from internally terrified and defended to a greater sense of strength. It can be helpful, but difficult, but should not be ruled out as an option.


I've had exactly the same kind of experience with my dad.  The more I stand up to him, the more foolish he seems (though I think I've finally seen it all, thank goodness).  

But I'm just pondering a little here.  On this thread, yeah, the advice was to let it go, don't explain.  I think that's right because the idea is not to give them any arsenal.  

But instead, to stand up to an N, you have to be able to stand firm.  Be a pole they blow around and reveal themselves to.  Do things because you want to and not in reaction to them - like speaking the truth instead of telling them what they need to hear.  Or telling them you don't appreciate their racist/sexist/classist comments.  Or reminding them that the world does not, in fact revolve around them (that's a good one :roll: ).  

I dunno...just trying to sound this out.  It's not a good idea to be vulnerable around an N, but it can be very revealing to be (firmly) yourself in spite of all their attempts to get you to conform to their needs.

Hmmm.  Thanks for posting that.

Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Dawning

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standing up to an N
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2004, 03:24:50 AM »
Now I understand what people have talked about when they talk about N's and the aggressive factor.  They aggressively kick people around or attempt to.  When you are a little kid, it is hard to stand up to that.  They are sooooo big.  I remember when I was 8 years old on the playground during sports class.  There was a game called tug of war where the gym teacher would call two kids in separate lines of teams and each one would grab one end of the rope and pull and try to win the rope from the other one.  When it was my turn, I didn't even try, I just let go of the rope.  Then, the kids would inevitably make fun of me as kids do.  But I had just given up on fighting that aggression.  I had an "N Regime" too as Nic wrote so it wasn't just my mother.  Then, you start to get older and older and now you are as big as they are.  Heh.  And the unfairness of it all gets harder and harder to ignore.  Maybe I should have titled this thread "Standing up for Oneself".

One other thing.......I see now where even until relatively recently, I let Nists -not only relatives - get the better of me and stifle my self-expression.  :x  There are a lot of ways to stand up for oneself and I am learning alot and grateful for the ideas, stories, etc.  

I haven't sent the letter.  Not yet anyway.  I like having written it though.  :)  

~Dawning
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

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standing up to an N
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2004, 12:47:46 PM »
I also have found not to give my NMom any ammunition.  Anything that is said or written positively will be reworked to be criticized.  

I do know what you mean about being phone retarded.  Just speaking with her or telling her how your day is going will be stored and vomited out to my friends/family with a spin on it.

So, while I feel guilty about being out of communication and not letting her into my life, I feel she hasn't earned it.

I do write her letters all the time and let her know how I feel.  Keep them in the house a week or two, and then throw it away.  It just does feel good to write down the frustrations.

Nowadays got the "guilties" going on.  With dad being in a nursing home, he has lost his energy to keep on going.  The NMom is pushing all the buttons and the "if you were only closer" buttons you could do this for me.

I want to be around for dad, and then move the NMom to the place she will live until she dies, and then be done with her.  

Also feel guilty, this is not the way I envisioned it going down.  I was always hoping the NMom would be the one to go first and dad and I could live in the same area.  Now I see that dad will be leaving first - and in the midst of all that personal grief, the NMom will use this to her advantage to circle the entire family around her. . . again.

Always considered the possibility of completely cutting her away from me, but didn't want dad to suffer for her actions (tho he may have enabled part of that).  I also don't understand what would make a man like him completely be manipulated for years by her.

Maybe it was just easier to be manipulated than to leave her. . . but it did cost him (for some years) a good relationship with his kids.

Just rambling   :)