Author Topic: standing up to an N  (Read 10547 times)

Singer

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
standing up to an N
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2004, 05:56:28 PM »
Quote from: rosencrantz
I keep coming up against the idea that my mother is suffering just as much as I am.  In a different way, yet the same.  She sees me through the filter of her neglectful mother; I see her as my mother but through the filter of a child's eyes - at age 2, 10, 19 and all the ages in between as the occasion dictates (otherwise I couldn't experience myself as her 'victim').  

Is it - ultimately - so very different???  Hmmm - only in terms of insight, I think.  She has none.  I struggle to 'get there'.  She's dangerous to me when she's an angry 2 year old and if I'm open to her (whatever age I'm experiencing her at).  So that's when NOT to get involved in attempting to 'reason'.  But two people who are 'capable' of being 'grownup' should be able to go the extra mile towards mutual understanding, even when hurting.

Challenging thoughts????
Hugs to all.
R


Rosencrantz,  

I find these very challenging thoughts. At first it seemed enough just to have a glimmer of understanding as to what was going on as far as life with a NMother. But what do I do now?

My mother had some tough times growing up. She was the oldest of 9 children and her mother died when my mother was 17 and her youngest brother was 4. Then her father was hit by a car and killed 10 years later.  Being the oldest must certainly have been a factor in her personality. And the loss of her mother would have compounded that.

I'm not sure what the situation with her father was. She claims he was an alcoholic and extremely authoritarian; but anyone who disagrees with her is at fault, and the only time she approves of drinking is when she would like a drink. Which, thankfully, is very seldom, especially these days.

Now that she's 79 years old, does this excuse past and present cruelty? I think she must be suffering, but maybe that's just projecting.

You say your mother has no insight, and neither does mine. None whatsoever, I believe. But maybe I'm wrong. It's the not knowing that keeps my guilt running full tilt when I try to keep my distance.

One thing I'm sure of is that she's really not capable of being a "grown-up" in the real sense. And I'm almost certain there will never be any mutual understanding.

My mother's way of maintaining relationships is to deal with one family member at a time, alternating between rage and the ability to act as though nothing has ever been wrong in the relationship. Unfortunately both my sister and brother accept this and lie low when the rage is at them, resurfacing and pretending nothing happened when it's directed somewhere else.

I can't do this anymore. Or maybe I can, and I'm just being selfish. Not long ago my mother phoned me at 11:30 pm to say she was feeling unwell and wanted to let me know in case she expired during the night. "I shouldn't trouble myself," but she thought someone should know. Of course I offered to come right over, which I did, and stayed with her all night leaving at around 6:00 am when she was certain the crisis had passed.

I still don't know what the actual health problem was, some stomach discomfort...all very vague. But she later mentioned to me, as if it were perfectly reasonable, that her real reason in wanting me to come over was so that I could write down her dying words. She even had a steno pad and a pen ready when I arrived, although I didn't know that until later. I guess she couldn't quite bring herself to request that I be poised to take dictation all night. She's been preparing for her deathbed scene ever since my father died three years ago, instructing as to who she will and will not allow to be present depending on who's in favor and who's out.

The reality is that one of these days, it will be for real and I have to ask myself if I can live with myself if  I'm not there for her. Or this could go on for another fifteen or more years in which case I'll be in a strait jacket and unable to take dictation anyway when the actual moment comes.

It's all VERY challenging :(  and I'm certain that from the perspective of anyone who has NOT had to deal with an N, that I am neither understanding, nor mature. How does one go about explaining this stuff to "normal" people without sounding like an absolute fool?

Singer

kelly8893

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
standing up to an N
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2004, 11:54:19 PM »
I know there are alot of replies here but standing up to an N is critical to real human growth beyond these people and to stand up to know YOU are not crazy, they are!!!!!!!!!!!! This can not be stressed enough!!! They pull you into their world and all of a sudden you don't exist. WE can not let that happen forever or can not be in their world for long if you want real growth!

I have been away from my ex-N for almost 6 months now ( I moved far away for him) and I am just realizing how much I had entered into "his world" and I did not exist in it. I exist and I am a person with feelings and emotions and love and kindness, I don't have anyone telling me that I am wrong all the time. I am able to feel my feelings even though at times this has been difficult due to not having any for 20 years but it is great to have them and to feel them!!!!

I know it must seem easy for me to talk about moving away and having distance between me and my ex-N but that was for saftey and my kids.
When it is a parent that is something else all together and I can relate.
My mother was not an N but she was and is mentally ill and a phycopath, I am not being mean that is her diagnoises. Growing up in that environment is very similar to the N's world, they think they are the only ones with feelings and everyone else especially children are to be seen but not heard. So guess what that means you have no feelings!! ( No wonder I am drawn to mentally ill people, God help me!) So my advice to Mother's who are like this, except them for who they are and don't try and change them but stand up and let them know you will not be treated like that as adults. No will change unless they want to change but if you change your behavoir then they will have to change theirs eventually.

Thanks for letting me sound off and Have a great weekend!!! kelly

Dawning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
standing up to an N
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2004, 09:46:41 AM »
Help-Attention Campaign - brilliant!  THANKS for putting in the link, Willdflower.  Rojo, if you are out there....you really put it into words...I feel it too.

New Guest:
Quote
What I wonder is how much can we, those of us who deal with Ns in our lives, influence our own outcome. For example, if you change the way you see your mother, you see her the way a stranger would.


Ah, but my mother would be on to that for a second.  It is okay dealing with her from 7,000 miles away but - with her- I've got to think differently almost.  6 year old, 6 year old.  I'm learning to accept that.

~D.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Dawning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
standing up to an N
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2004, 10:15:58 AM »
Quote
My mother would take the letter and would read it and re-read it and be wounded and re-wounded  Revelling in the pain. It would be all about her. The message that I would be trying to relay (I.E.  Mom - You are toxic to me -you hurt me)   would get flipped  in her mind anyway. She would turn it around and say that I was toxic to her - never seeing my points, never seeing that she was hurting me, never seeing that I was not an extension of her and had my own life,wants, dreams &  desires,  never seeing that not everything I did was about her, basically never SEEING.


Oh, gawd.  I'm sorry, you too?  That is so true.  My mother would do the same thing.  I SEE.  Yes, it's true.  I see the same thing as you.  (Does that not sound like Dr. Suess...?  lightness...)  It is just amazing, though.  They don't see in *that* way.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts, mrtraced.

Well, the latest.  Getting emails from her.  Haven't spoken since the end of March.  I'm replying with the aid of an hour glass to time my replies.   :lol:  Based on recent email, she is transferrring the Nsupply to my grandmother who is already an N - but an old one.  When grandmother goes, Nmom is highly likely to to turn to me again. (maybe she'll find someone else....I still have hope.)  I can't kick the woman out on the streets and it is not in my nature to do this.  Although, if she knew I was even having the thought, she would be like Blanche Dubois in a Streetcar Named Desire and I am the GUILTY PARTY just for insinuating that she was less than perfect and not deserving of ALL my attention.  Whew!!  I can't - above all else - talk about how I feel about my life but yet she seems to want to know.  Then, I give in to belief and tell her about my life and she judges it as if she is in a position to do so.  Maybe relating to her as a stranger is the way.  Something to ponder.  But I would probably have to put on a good act at the beginning.  

~D.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Anonymous

  • Guest
standing up to an N
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2004, 11:46:00 AM »
Hi--I'm a new poster here but I've been reading this board for a few weeks on and off.  

My response is slightly on/off topic.  I "stood up to N" this morning but it was my ex-SO, not my mother.  Of course, he doesn't know I stood up to him because I did it by choosing not to confront him with the casual lie he told me yesterday and the evidence he left for me to see.  Any attention I give him, good or bad, is just more documentation of how important he thinks he is to me and I just won't give that to him anymore.

So instead of talking to him or writing the long email to him, I wrote the email to my sister.  We are survivors of an N-mother and she is my biggest supporter through all of this--likewise, I am hers.  

My recommendation is to write all the letters you need to, edit them as many times as you want, and send them to yourself, a supporter, or this board.  Remember "the truth" for N is whatever suits his/her need at the moment.  Since your letter will not suit their needs, it will automatically be "lies" from the N-pointofview.  Get your satisfaction from knowing the N will never get to use your insight against you.  

Take care and be strong--

DiveDiveDive

kelly8893

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 25
standing up to an N
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2004, 04:15:10 PM »
Very well put! Divedivedive, I have been doing the same thing but with no contact with my ex-N and it gives me satifaction knowing he doesn't get his n supply from me anymore!!!! I have been angry about it lately but I take a deep breathe and know that he isn't hurting me and getting his jollies off me anymore. That is enough to make the anger not so much and I can do the things I enjoy in life.

Have a great mothers day all!!!!
Kelly

Anonymous

  • Guest
standing up to an N
« Reply #36 on: May 13, 2004, 10:32:47 AM »
CG wrote:

Quote
Hi Dawning, a question. If you could imagine all the actions and comments to you from your mum, coming from say, a neighbour or someone at work, how would your letter read then???


Thanks, CG.  Here is a recent letter I wrote to someone like you described above:

That was not my intention at all but you are certainly entitled to your
feelings. And your choice of words was obviously designed to hurt. You must
be in a lot of pain and I hope writing me in this manner helped you get
something off your chest. It appears you didn't bother to look at the
subject line - a QUESTION directed to how YOU ARE DOING. Anyway, if I
replied to friends keeping me up to date with the news from their personal
lives in this way, I would not have any friends. I understand how you feel
about xmas (I have felt like that too.) My telephone/email channels have
always been open to you and I have ALWAYS HONOURED YOUR REQUESTS but I also
understand that people have their own lives to lead and stories to tell even
when I feel that mine are not heard at the time when I want them to be. In
any case, I get the message loud and clear (though I am afraid that you are
wrong in your assumptions about me) and will duly remove your email address
from my records. Better to find out something like this now than after a lot
has been invested emotionally.

Dawning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
standing up to an N
« Reply #37 on: May 13, 2004, 10:36:23 AM »
That was me above.  Log in...log in...

~Dawning.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Dawning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
standing up to an N
« Reply #38 on: May 13, 2004, 12:56:37 PM »
I sound like a bitchy N in that last post.  I wrote a letter here and it disappeared.  All my mails are disappearing.  Is this a sign or something?

Has anyone else experienced the maddening frustration when you write out a mail and it just DISAPPEARS???

Anyway, what I wrote last night , was that the email I responded to in the letter above was hurtful to me.  The writer (a former colleague) was accusatory and she saw only her side.  I have no regrets about sending that response.  It was the first time I can remember deciding that I wasn't going to take this sh*t and that I could open my mouth - via email - and tell her that I am not all that bad and I won't have her say so.   She responded to my response asking me to call her sometime.  :shock:  The old me would probably have given in and called, hoping that she had become nice.  But, now I think, WHY would I call someone who wrote such a hurtful letter to me and I can't think of a reason.  And mother-questions?  I don't get many either.  Except for the ones with the word *me* in them.  i.e.  "would you like to call *me?*  Why do these people want ME to call THEM.  They have a phone.  They can take responsibility and call me if they want to speak to me.  Sheesh.   Maybe my mother is afraid of rejection like I am and she is afraid I will reject her if she calls so she asks me to call her.  Oh, I dunno.  But, as R said in this thread, she lacks *any* insight and, if she has it, she's not sharing it.  She wants me to take ALL the responsibility to enable her to get what she wants.  And I am not doing it anymore.  The best thing I can do is get on with my life and change the parts I want to change and evaluate where I am at and TAKE ACTION.  Get myself untangled from the machine.  I think I did something like that with the colleague.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Portia

  • Guest
standing up to an N
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2004, 05:30:58 AM »
No D, it doesn’t sound like a bitchy N to me. What I get from your words is loads of hurt and anger. Were you that angry at this person? Is there a tad of misplaced anger in it, maybe meant for mom? Just wondering coz you really are angry! But then I don’t know the background, goodness knows what she said to you but whatever it was, it’s clear you don’t need that ‘friendship’ eh? (Wanna talk about what she said? Did I get you squirming just then? Wanna get that tumour out or is it benign?)

As for mails disappearing, nah, I write in Word and paste it in, saves the irritation. No it isn’t a sign, quell that worry okay?

And untangle from the machine? I like the idea of the Matrix, but it’s the NMatrix to me, quite an effective image. Seriously! Alternative realities and all that. P

Anonymous

  • Guest
standing up to an N
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2004, 10:32:27 AM »
Dawning,

You don't sound bitchy in your letter. My guess is that you sent some kind of Christmas newsletter to a group email, and she didn't like it; and asked to be taken off the list in a mean way. She could have just deleted the email if she wasn't into it. I used to get "group email" jokes from a woman and they were coming every day. I asked her to remove me from her list. I wrote to her in a businesslike manner. I think she was hurt, but I didn't care, because she was basically bothering me with her dumb emails.

One Christmas email isn't going to kill anyone. There are people who literally hate these family newsletters and who find them deeply offensive. Maybe your ex-friend is one of them. In any case, her request for YOU to call HER is quite nervy so don't do it.

bunny

Dawning

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 344
standing up to an N
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2004, 11:27:18 PM »
P and Bunny,

Thanks for the letter feedback.  It wasn't a xmas mass mailing on my part that set her off.  It was that her needs were not being met, she did not make those needs known to me and when I sent her a friendly email to stay in touch, she lashed out with character assassination-techniques probably designed to make me feel guilty.  Immediately, I wrote the letter I posted above.  It was empowering to do that cause it felt like I had removed something yucky (not HER but the reaction reading her email had on me) that would have festered if I had not sent the letter.  N parents are a bit trickier.  No, ALOT trickier.  If only it were this easy.  Mind you, this woman was not a good friend.  We worked together.  I shared some confidences with her and vice-versa and I did not deserve to have those confidences thrown back in my face as ammunition.  NOT the type of person I want to share confidences with in the future.  NOT a safe place.  I think the sad part is that she could have expressed her feelings without resorting to the types of things she said in that letter.  Okay, maybe I haven't fully detached from parent-issues, maybe I have been attracted to lying English men in the past and maybe the people at my place of employment ARE facists...but what is her point?  I think her letter was a cry for help but. doing so in that way, is not the way to get my help.  I'm not stoopid (anymore.)   :x  :) Today, I got a letter from a friend talking about something that happened a long time ago and her feelings about it.  She didn't attack me and I responded telling her that it was good that she brought this up.   Therein lies the difference.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Portia

  • Guest
standing up to an N
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2004, 07:05:07 AM »
Hey Dawning:
Quote
I did not deserve to have those confidences thrown back in my face as ammunition.
Anyone that uses confidences as ammunition is not a friend. No-one deserves that.

Quote
Okay, maybe I haven't fully detached from parent-issues, maybe I have been attracted to lying English men in the past and maybe the people at my place of employment ARE facists...but what is her point?

Yeah! What IS her point? I agree, why is she saying these things to you? Sounds like she’s trying to get you to see things her way (and is trying to undermine you), and that smacks of trying to control – something I’d run away from very fast. IF those things are true, only you know that and only you can deal with your reactions to them…so why is she attacking you about them? That’s how it seems from what you’ve written. Some kind of power-play. Chuck it. And her asking you to call her? Yeah, because she’s got a reaction from you, an angry one, she feels back in control, she can reel you in for another go. And she knows she’s upset you so maybe that makes her feel better!!!! Aurgh. :evil:  Nasty. Ignoring them is the only option. Maybe I’m way off here but this is what I saw in your post. Take care D. P

Anonymous

  • Guest
standing up to an N
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2004, 02:09:25 PM »
Quote from: Dawning
Okay, maybe I haven't fully detached from parent-issues, maybe I have been attracted to lying English men in the past and maybe the people at my place of employment ARE facists...but what is her point?


To tell you that she's a nutcase?

I'm glad you had a sane interaction with another friend.  :P

bunny

Jenocidal

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 36
standing up to an N
« Reply #44 on: August 14, 2004, 12:27:26 AM »
When my narcissistic mother plays her usual games with me, I don't take it anymore like I did as a child.  Since the day I left home, for good when I was 16, I learned to stand up for myself.  Now when the narcissist rages on me (like my mother did and does so much), I RAGE right back at her, with more fervor.. And it has done the job.  She will backdown.  However, I have come to the end of my rope where she is concerned and have extractd her from my life, for good.