Varying Sibling Reactions to NPD

[Poppyseed]

Hello Sun,

I have asked myself similar questions about my own foo and my H's N fam.  I don't know if my mother was or is an N but our fam was dysfunctional nonetheless.  My sibs all dealt with the dysfunction differently.  My brothers dealt differently than my sister and I.  I remember calling myself the "damaged one" too.  Although, I don't anymore.  I have struggled with depression, PTSD, and self-esteem all my life.  My sibs have other stuff.  Some is easy to see and some is not.  I am not sure any of my sibs are emotionally aware enough to recognize the dysfunction the way I did. (I was the whistle blower and scapegoat.) My H has a brother that went buggo early in his life and now seems to be doing great.  But I wonder how truly healthy he is.  He is good at "looking" great.  My other in laws were treated as golden children and many still believe that they are.  But all have dysfunction.  They just don't know it and only an educated eye could see it.  I wonder if it is that way with your sibs.  I think that many in my family are too scared to look at it or too comfortable in the dysfunction to recognize the problem.  I wonder if the depression and self-worth probs are an indicator of your strong spirit.  You recognized instincitively that there was something wrong and you dealt with it in the only way you could at the time.  I know I did.  I now am learning better ways, kinder ways of dealing with it. Self care, etc....

My take on your "golden" sister is that the reason she gets all the attention is that her dyfunction plays right into the hands of your parents and helps them to feel the way they need to feel to keep themselves protected or validated.  Sounds to me like it is part of the game.  My H used to play the game. He is now standing on his own and refusing to be defined by his mother and her "labels".  She is scrambling and trying all the tricks to get him/us to submit to the old way he used to function.   It shows me how self absorbed she is.  The healthier we get and the healthier our behavior gets, the more they label us as dysfunctional.  They need so badly to believe that we are the prob and they are the perfect ones.  They don't know how to listen or to see our growth and be happy for us or encourage us. 

I guess what I am trying to say is that all of my sibs seem to have different awareness levels.  For 10years my H has been completely blind and he looked so healthy and so put together.  Everyone used to tell me how lucky I was.  Now, we both realize how messed up he was and how good he was at keeping up appearances.  But that is all it was.  Surface!  He is now healthier than I have ever seen him.  But it has taken so much to help him see.  It is actually a miracle.

--poppy

[Lupita]

Children are different because they are treated differently. If a mother gives a lot of love to a child and deprives the other, those children are going to be different despite of being in the same household.
If a mother makes one child to feel special and the other feel like trash, those children are going to act and feel different.
I think the behavior is a product of our experiences and the most important part is the first years of life with our mother. Also, how prepared is the mother when a child comes to this world. Mothers welcome to the world one child and did not want the other. If you are welcome into this world, also makes a difference in self esteem and in personality.

My love to you, you sound so similar to me.

[JanetLG]

Lupita,

"Mothers welcome to the world one child and did not want the other"

This is an interesting thought, Lupita, but I can't quite understand it as it relates to my family. I was the middle child, and apparently the only 'planned' one. My sister (younger than me) was an 'accident', but she is the Golden Child.

I think the problem with my NMum is not only that she planned my birth, but she planned my LIFE...she just didn't consider that I might want to have some input into that!


Janet

[Lupita]

Dear Janet, how old are you now? is she still interfering with your life? I am 50 and try not to let her hurt me. I try to detach as much as I can. But it is difficult.

[JanetLG]

Dear Lupita,

I am 45 now. I started NC with my NMum when I was 32.

It's much better now that I don't have anything to do with  her, and live hundreds of miles away from her, too!

She doesn't contact me now, but she encourages her latest 'boyfriend' to do that for her (both in their seventies). My NSister also tries sometimes - I went NC with  her 13 years ago, too. She is much more persistent and vindictive than my NMum, now, I think.

I deal with them better than I did, on the whole, but still have nightmares, sometimes.

I agree - it is difficult.

Janet

[Bella_French]

Hi Sunblue,

I agree with what others said, about the `damage' occurring in different ways, depending n the child. I don't know if you have heard this, but depression is often a sign of being more enlightened and honest about reality than others, who may protect themselves with ego and denial. My partner was taught this in his psychology classes; perhaps it explains why you were the only one who was depressed?



X Bella

[sun blue]

Hello all!

Thank you so much for your comments!  It is so good to finally hear from people who "get it" and I have to admit I feel a little relieved that I'm not the only one who has only now discovered what this is all about.  I have had major depression all my life (although only diagnosed 10 years ago).  My therapists have mentioned they thought I was the strong one but I always felt inferior and the weaker one.  I know for a fact that I am the only one in my dysfunctional family who has tried to understand the "why" behind things and tried to understand why the family is the way it is.  My parents have consistently refused to either come to therapy (for my behalf, not theirs) or even to answer a few written questions my therapist instructed me to ask them about.  My dad conveniently adopts the attitude that "some people just don't believe in that kind of thing."  My NPD sister has repeatedly refused to get medical help for her "nervous" condition because she adamantly claims that she is not "crazy".  She is evil, not crazy.  Since my brother seems not to be affected adversely by any of this, he doesn't really closely look at it.  I studied NPD a lot and did al lot of research and studying.  I compiled all this information in a kind of report which included specific examples pertaining to our family and its effect on me and others.  His reaction was only, "well, at least there's a name for it."  But he doesn't truly get it.

I do think you're right about depressives being more sensitive to these issues.  I feel enormous empathy for others as a general rule and so find it very difficult to accept my NPD mom's total lack of compassion and support.  It just seems that those of us who feel this way get stuck with all the "pain" and "damage".

Part of my problem is that currently, for financial reasons, I have to live with my parents.  They basically ignore me and take no interest in my life.  But I feel completely and utterly alone.  On the one hand, these people are very hurtful and destructive, on the other hand, they are your parents.  It's so hard for me not to take it personally, not to feel betrayed and resentful, and not to give up hope that I could have a real relationship with my NPD mom (and co-dependent dad).  It is such a painful, lonely life.

I know NPDs behave in varying ways.  My NPD mom has always been neglectful in emotional ways.  She was a mother of sorts, but never a mom.  She made sure there was food in the house, presents at Christmas and clothes that were cleaned.  But she never took any interest in anything I did, especially if it didn't fit in with her own ideas.  She values anyone with money and material things and dismisses everyone else.  Thus, I am a true failure.  I realize she treats most people like this, but still it is so hurtful.

I also struggle with the guilt of wanting to be a "good" daughter to my mom (and dad).  But how can you when they treat you like this?  She essentially won't allow it.  The only way would be to agree with everything she said at all times, do whatever she wanted at all times and never have my own opinions, beliefs or interests.  She has united with my NPD sister in ridiculous extremes to the extent that she and my dad have next to nothing to do with me, my brother or my niece, their only grandchild.  How do you deal with that?  How do you look the other way?  Especially when you have no one else in your life?

It seems like such a continual struggle and so unfair.  As someone who has been so depressed all my life, I always felt like I could have used some support, compassion and help.  I always felt like you help those who need it most.  Instead, my NPD mom side with the child who created all the damage to begin with.

Anyway, thanks for letting me vent.  I really appreciate your comments.  I am a middle child and can identify with a lot of what you all said.  Too bad there's not a 12-step program for adult children of NPD parents!

Thanks again.!

[sun blue]

Hi Izzy, Poppy and everyone else (I forgot to write down all the names).  Please know I have read every single word of every one of your posts!  They are so thoughtful and compassionate!  WOW!  That is certainly a new feeling for me!

So, thank you, thank you, thank you!  I am sincerely sorry you all have experienced the kinds of things I have.  It is heartwrenching, a hole in the heart which never heals.

There was one comment I read which aptly described my situation with my NPD mom.  It's like you're a child left on the curb crying while she drives by laughing.  That's exactly how it feels.

Aside from the guilt and resentment and just plain sadness when dealing with this situation, I just can't seem to get by the what ifs.  I think it's bad enough when you have to deal with the loss of one parent relationship because of NPD.  But more often than not, the other parent (like my dad) is co-dependent or absent resulting in the loss of the other too.  My dad is so co-dependent on my NPD mom that at bedtime he won't even go up to bed when he's tired before my mom accompanies (keep in mind they have separate rooms, my NPD mom's idea of course!).  He won't make any decision, no matter how small, without her approval.  So growing up and now, no one dares stand up to or disagrees with my NPD mom.  When you do disagree, as my brother and I have, she throws you away, discards you.  On top of the parents, I grew up with a thoroughly NPD sister and a brother who, though healthy, dealt with it by distancing himself.  And then there was me, neglected and alone.

So I'm often left with the what ifs.  What if I had received a little attention when I was young?  Would I have spent my lifetime fighting major depression and PTSD?  Would I have ever become involved with the NPD guy I did (for a short time) who thoroughly destroyed me?  Would I have been able to make friends or find a boyfriend or husband or had children?  Would I have had enough self-esteem to think myself worthy of good things?  And on and on.  But there's no going back.  In my case, my NPD absolutely, positively would never even entertain the notion that something could possibly be wrong with her so she would never go to a therapist, not even under the guise to help me.  I have been suicidal in my life and was hospitalized once and she didn't even call me.  So no, therapy is out.  It's all up to me.  Everyone in my family thinks that because I have sought therapy and am on meds, that it is all my problem.  I'm weak, less than, a failure.  Yet, I feel like screaming, "I'd like to see how well you would have done in life having to deal with all this on your back?"  I have had many negative experiences in my life, ranging from molestation to assault to robbery to countless betrayals, yet I never received one ounce of compassion from any member of my family.

So I understand your pain and anguish.  It just seems so unfair that the NPDs, while internally they may be unhappy, achieve so much and never endure any real hardships in their life.  They are not the ones who suffer.

Also, in my family, my NPD mom and co-dependent dad were and are extremely secretive and isolating.  Growing up, they both were estranged from their own siblings so we had no extended family.  They didn't socialize with people and didn't want anyone in the house.  They always instructed us not to tell anyone anything about our family or our house or anything.  So it was just the five of us, two of whom were NPD, one who was a co-dependent, my brother who usually ran off with his friends to get away and me.  So the result is utter loneliness.

I am grateful for this message board.  Truly grateful.  Thank you for listening and I pray you are doing well in your own struggles.  I would think those of you who are lucky enough to have children can appreciate the importance of good, loving parenting and that family relationships are so essential to a person's well-being.

....

[Hopalong]

Sun,
What a painful story. I don't think you need to live a life of pain.
You have a long future.

I have felt a lot of loneliness and isolation too, and still can.
But something that has really helped me has been getting very involved
in a healthy church community (in my case UU but there are many others).

It has taken a long time, just like building a family takes time. But I do
have a place to belong, to explore new friendships, to test my talents,
to give and serve sometimes, to sing, to sorrow, and to risk.

I felt similar feelings around a women's support group I went to EVERY
Tuesday night for two years. It opened up my realization that when I
am lonely I can change it. It won't change in single encounters and I
won't be rescued from the essentiality of it (Pema Chodron) but I CAN
build my own family, that will be there for me more often than not.

What a difference it could make to you to step out of this poisoned
atmosphere and drink from a new well. It's doing it intentionally,
and over and over...that can really change you life.

You deserve to feel happiness and hope.

love
Hops

[sun blue]

Hello all:  

Thanks again for your posts.  They are so helpful!

I'm wondering for those of you who are a bit farther along than I am in the "acceptance" and "healing" process, how do you deal with your NPD parent now?  In all my reading, it appears that NPD is a cycle and thus a disorder that our NPD parent learned from their own parents.  So do you feel sorry for them because they didn't get what they needed from their own parents?  Do you forgive them for treating you so badly?  Do you remain angry and resentful because of the damage that was done to you?  Do you accept that they will never love you as you love them?  Does that mean you limit or even eliminate your interactions wth them?

In my family, there is no chance that either my NPD mom or co-dependent would even listen to the possibility that there is dysfunction in the family (caused by them).  My mother would never, ever entertain the idea that she is NPD and that my depression might have roots in something she did or didn't do.  So there is no hope for change.  Thus, there will never be any "closure", never even any discussion of this.  In my family, there has never really been any discussion on anything significant.  My NPD mom either spoke at you or tuned out.  If she gave advice or an opinion, and you didn't adhere to it, she would get angry, withdraw and not engage in any further conversation.

So, ultimately, except for me, no one in my family will ever acknowledge the dysfunction or the effects of the dysfunction.  I'm the damaged one so the problem must be all about me.

So, I was just curious, how do you regard your NPD parent now that you are aware of all of these issues?

[Hopalong]

NPD is a cycle and thus a disorder that our NPD parent learned from their own parents.  So do you feel sorry for them because they didn't get what they needed from their own parents?

 

Yes. Sun, I did and do feel very sorry about my mother's blunted childhood. I got STUCK in feeling sorry for her because the aftereffects of that childhood (her NPD) caused her to be a supreme manipulator, so I became Co-D and Cinderella. Eventually, it came time to STOP feeling sorry for her. My next stage was a decade of anger. Then...

Do you forgive them for treating you so badly?

Yes. Finally. That too was a process not a moment.

 

Do you remain angry and resentful because of the damage that was done to you?

 
Thank god, not any more. That changed because the anger was so useless and ultimately uncreative and boring and it was a stuck place. Releasing that was a process too. One big blowup moved it along. (Though I felt guilt for that.)

Do you accept that they will never love you as you love them?

 
Yes. That was the first part of it.
The next part to make peace with was my realization that after the feeling sorry for, feeling resentful and angry at, I finally have come to realize I also do not love Nmother as much as I did as a child. I love her but it's a mild thing. Not primal any more. And I also got to the point where I realized that INTENSITY of love doesn't = quality or rightness. It's just intensity. I don't love her as intensely as before. It's more a dutiful and familiar love. There is no longing in it.

Does that mean you limit or even eliminate your interactions wth them?

It may sound insane for me to comment on this because I actually live with my mother, but yes. My limiting has taken the form of leaving intimate chores to her morning caregiver, retreating to my own rooms on the second floor at almost all times, and simply not pretending any more that I delight in companionship. I'm patient, humorous, and kind when we do interact. And she, at looooooooooong last, seems content with it. She thanks me for whatever service I've just provided and goes back to her reading. I think on some gut level she also has come to realize that we're not friends.

Hope that gives you some help,
Hops

[Lupita]

Hopalong, if you dont mind, would please, tell me how could you detach if you are seeing her every day?
I e mail my mother back and forth everyday, and it is hard to read the insane things that she writes me. But I write her back saying just what I did during the day and telling that I wish for God to bless her and have a wonderful day. Today I was totally detach when she wrote, "I am the onlyone who will give you a kidney if you needed it". I did not even think about her the rest of the day. I just wrote her the same thing, what I did, went to church, went to dance lessons and saw my son. Then I proceded to ask God ofr bessings for her and said good bye. I feel totally calmed right now. I do not know how I got to this point. I would like to know how you did. Thank you Hops.
Love to you.

[Ami]

Dear Lupita,
   I think that you turned it over to God and got a peace. Does that sound right?       Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Lupita,
I spent two decades having panic attacks and doing therapy, then for the last 8 years I have lived in the same house with her.
So I don't think I have a method of detaching from an Nmother to recommend!

But my struggles with her, and with my own previous resentment, called up a great many things about myself that I didn't want to face but had to, if I were going to have any chance at peace, spiritual growth.

One time, I blew up, about a year ago. She was manipulating me about the house, whether she'd leave it to me or not, and I had built up enormous fear over my future...and I asked her to just make a decision and tell me what it was...anyway, I've told that tale before. But when I blew up, I told her I had come to realize there was no way I could please her, and that it had been a mistake to move in.

That shocked her into treating me more courteously and her displays of entitlement have never reached the same peak again.

Spiritually, I worked at it, kept involved in my church community, really listened to our smart ministers, respected that I couldn't do it alone. I think years of acceptance and positive encounters there did a lot to increase my strength.

And Pema Chodron's writing, in particular, showed me more than I've ever "gotten" before about detachment. I do recommend her to you.

Glad to hear from you, Lup.

love
Hops

[Lupita]

Thank you so much for answering. Pema Shodrom........ what book? I will read it. It sounds terrific.