How do you explain to others?

[npenney]

I'm new to this board, but three years into my N education.  My mom is a longtime N, and my dad has joined her relatively recently in life.  Through counselling, prayer, lots of reading, and reflection, I'm working through devastating realizations, including that my parents will never change.  This is hard for me, since I've always lived with hope.

We have basically no association with my parents, aside from perfunctory social situations.  Our "line in the sand" several years ago was that our next meeting with my parents needed to be with a counselor.  You know how that turned out.

My parents live several hours from us, and my dad is still a professor at the university that our daughter will attend next year.  All of us belong to the same relatively small church denomination, and know people who know people who know each other.  So although we are emotionally distanced from each other, there are and will be social situations where we bump into each other, and where we see people who are on my parents' "side."

What do you all say when you're around your N?  How do you calmly explain that you can't be together?  Or do you just not discuss it, sticking to superficial conversation?

And what do you say to third parties who wonder why you're not all one big happy family?

I've got some ideas about this, but would like to hear yours too.  Thanks!

[npenney]

You know, I don't know why this continues to just stun me, but it's really true that with the exception of details like names, all our N stories are identical!

I have also attempted last ditch "let's get together" letters and email, with predictable results.  Also, we are grateful for my brother and SIL, who are still our family.  They've been reading the same books we have, and truly understand.  

We've wondered too if we should attend funerals.  That used to be my great fear:  "What if one of my parents dies before we reconcile, and I have to go to a funeral?"  Now I've addressed that in my mind in two parts:  First, it's very likely that one or both parents will die before we reconcile, because we never will.  Second, if we don't go to the funeral, so what?  That's not the worst thing in the world.

Thanks for your story!

[Nic]

Hi npenney and rob and everyone.
I know how you feel..I really do.
This winter, one of my favourite uncles died.  Because we were involved in this turmoil with my parents, and because I do not habitually read the obits in every newspaper I never knew he passed on until...Until, the day of the funeral, my mother left the newspaper clipping of his having dies and of course the advertisement of his funeral for that very day.
There was no way I could have gone because I was working..my wife was not wanted as well.  This is yet another example of how mean and vindictive these N parents can be.
What was I to do?  I wasn't even motivated to go next door ( yes Rob as you know I don't have the luxury of them living 6 houses down the street ).  I didn't react, which I think is really the best way to handle these people when it comes down to the crunch.  They just wait for you to react, they know, because they trained you, how you would react anyway right?  So I didn't react..and I allowed them and their warped imaginations do the rest.
Do not react, one would to anybody else especially normal people.  but not to Ns because deep down and on the surface they don't care about anybody else but themselves.  A hard truth to accept.  And what an insult to my mom's brother to deprive him of having everyone who grieved for him attend his funeral.  God knows however..remember that.
I gather you are both people of faith and this should bring comfort to you.  God knows..meditate on that...
Kind regards,
Nic

[rosencrantz]

Hi nPenney.  I struggle with your question "How do we explain to others" a lot.  I've been practising!

My conclusion is that people hear what they want to hear whatever you say!  

I told someone who I work closely with but who doesn't know my mother that I'd discovered she had a pesonality disorder and we discussed how fortunate it is to know these things so you can save it passing on to future generations.  

But I realised afterwards that even with such a short sentence I'd given him FAR too much information, he had no need to know, it makes no difference to my relationship with the world at large whatever my mother 'is'.  It doesn't make me any different - I just know WHY I am who I am and do what I do...

Then I told someone "my mother has a LOT of psychological problems and I'm only just realising the extent of it all.  But it's been a useful learning curve".   She related it to her own situation which many women of my age have - ageing parents needing as much support as growing children.  So...at least it gave me a way of excusing my recent 'absence' and preoccupation.

Getting closer to home : relatives.  I think you have to tackle them one by one and drip feed them what's really happening.  I now realise that the whole of my family is affected by this and there will be a lot of defences to 'break down'.  But once one person has 'seen the light', it gives you hope that more doors will open.  But beware the possibility that family would rather you become the scapegoat.

Community members - I think it's a combination of the last two.  Quite often there's a lot of 'truth' in what other people say and think - I think it's a case of accepting what they say and gradually putting forward that there's ALSO other aspects that they won't be aware of because they are not as close to the situation as you are.

The most difficult bit (for me) is the mental health and social services team who have NO IDEA what the problem really is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's they themselves who have given me the information that confirmed to me exactly what my mother is suffering from.  Her grandiosity and sense of entitlement were the most obvious ("I should have a better room than this", holding court in the day room, the paranoia about being neglected and believing nurses were abusing the other patients).  And they just don't 'get it'.  Heaven help them!!!

But, underlying all this, why are we so desperate to be understood???

For me, it used to be that my sanity was at risk - but now I know what I know, I guess that's no longer quite the same issue.  Desperation to be believed - needing validation and confirmation that my sense of reality is intact.  Well, I guess that's not quite so desperate now either.  I'd like people to think and to know that I'm a nice person really.  (It gave me great heart to hear that my mother was picking on the NICEST nurses to manipulate and be mean about!!!!! It made me feel that I must be nice, actually, too, after all!!!)

R

[CC]

Hi Npenney, I struggle with the same thing.  I think it is around holidays, mostly, when people say "so are you going to see your family, etc" and there is the squirmy, uncomfortable moment when you are thinking, Okay, how do I word this.  My response is somewhat easier, because my brother, sister and husband's families are out of state, so that's an excuse - so we just say that we stay in town with my mom because she doesn't enjoy traveling at her age and have a quiet holiday with her.  

But other things come along, and usually about my sister, who is basically estranged from me.  I generally say, "my sister and I don't see eye to eye on most things so we get along better from a distance".  I really avoid saying things like "she's dysfunctional" or "we are estranged" because like rosencrantz said, it just leaves room for people to make their own speculations, and unfortunately not positively about YOU.  

It really sucks, doesn't it? Most people really don't understand. I've given a few close friends a peek into my healing, and they have said things to me like, "really?  gee, it seems like you and your mom get along GREAT " or "your mom seems really cool, I don't get it?" and so they walk away thinking you are making it up or that you are making something out of nothing, or the classic "but that childhood stuff is so long ago, why don't you get over it".  My best friend actually said that to me once.  So I have learned that you really should only share this kind of info with your support group, whatever it may be.  If you don't have one, get one.  You need it for validation, because people who have not experienced it cannot give it to you.  Thank God for this forum.  You are safe here.  Good Luck Npenney.

[Alan]

I have been told I talk too much, say too much.  I don't care.  The more I speak the better I feel, the quicker I heal.  Sure, I pick my spots, but overall, I tell people if they ask.

I have learned, within reason, to reveal.  It doesn't matter what others think in this area.  They can't take anything away from me that I'm not willing to give.

[The only way out is Through]

It works for me.  It takes time and toughness to reach this point.  If they don't understand, that's OK.  I learned a long time ago.  When I was going thru my first divorce, I mentioned it to a woman, she literally did not speak to me again for about 10 years.  People really do not expect honesty.  Be honest to yourself, reveal to others and an inner peace will arrive.  My heart goes out to all on this post.[/quote]

[seeker]

Hey everybody,

Just wanted to chime in again.  This is a topic that I really struggle with constantly.  Many of my neighbors know both me and my NSIL.  And of course, outsiders/witnesses are required to take sides!  

I have learned, within reason, to reveal. It doesn't matter what others think in this area.

I appreciate Alan's input.  I kept silent not because I cared what people think (well, maybe a little) but because I wanted the busybodies to figure it out for themselves just how twisted and needy this woman is.  I cut off all contact, which meant that she would have only so many favors to use up with the neighbors before they realized just how draining she is really is.  Like, no wonder your family doesn't support you any more, they're spent!!  And other reasons I kept silent: a) that's what I always do, b) I couldn't figure out my own position because I didn't necessarily agree with the opposing camp vs. NSIL and finally c) I told myself I couldn't afford to care what other people thought anymore.  Frankly, I have to admit that as emotionally unsafe as I felt around her, I can understand why she wouldn't feel safe around us.

But now that other people have witnessed my NSIL's bizarre behavior now that the children are old enough to drag the emotional stuff out into the open themselves, these neighbors will draw their own conclusions about what they can tolerate and what they can't.  Who am I to tell them what to think?  And wouldn't that be rather N of me anyway?  But if asked about holidays I am now armed with something similar to CC's message (and Alan's strong attitude):

CC said:

But other things come along, and usually about my sister, who is basically estranged from me. I generally say, "my sister and I don't see eye to eye on most things so we get along better from a distance". I really avoid saying things like "she's dysfunctional" or "we are estranged" because like rosencrantz said, it just leaves room for people to make their own speculations, and unfortunately not positively about YOU.

I would point out that it's simply a matter of incompatibility or chemistry.  I like the phrase "getting along better from a distance."  I will use that!  

Good luck to you all, S.

[Alan]

Thanks for the words.  It's ironic that I found this message at this time.

I understand where you're coming from.  I agree with you.  I am sometimes a little nuts.

My N always wanted me to figure it out.  I finally did, for me.

Because I "gave it away" to others, I "got it back".  Pay it forward.  I just watched it with my daughter. I cried.  Thanks for being here.

[Anna]

But, underlying all this, why are we so desperate to be understood???

I am learning that "we" (the little voices, the voiceless) are so desperate to be understood because we have learned not to trust our own feelings, our own experiences through life.   We seem to collectively feel an internal emptiness and continually search for who we are.  Because we have such defective boundaries, we look for validation outside ourselves.  We feel deficient inside and look to others to make up for these subconscious deficiencies.  We need approval from outside sources to confirm that we exist .  

As an aside, it's my understanding that the N was once the 'special child'. They enjoyed this wonderful bond, an adoration type of connection with mother.  Then this bond got broken -- maybe by another sibling arriving or anything that crippled that emotional connection.  The special child withdrew and began their omnipotent fantasies of self grandeur as a defense mechanism.  The Ns are constantly struggling to recreate being that "chosen one".

Compare this with me/us -- I cannot even conceive of the idea of being a "special" one!  I felt indebted just to be breathing and alive.  I had to be the chameleon and be everything for everyone just trying to MAKE a CONNECTION --> ANY connection, anywhere with anyone just to fill the black hole inside.  We compromise ourself at any price.  The voiceless are constantly struggling to prove being worthy enough.

"What if one of my parents dies before we reconcile, and I have to go to a funeral?" Now I've addressed that in my mind in two parts: First, it's very likely that one or both parents will die before we reconcile, because we never will.

Lastly, just want to share that both my parents are now deceased, and I have to wonder what my life would have been like if this were not the case.  When my Nmother was dying 12 years ago, I practically RAN to therapy as often as I could afford so that I could find some forgiveness.  I was terrified that without some type of forgiveness for her, I would be lost in an abyss of self-hatred forever (because weren't we "fused"?).  Fortunately I was in a semi-good enough place to say goodbye and not self destruct too.  At that point, I honestly could not understand emotionally how she could die and I was still here ----- psychically(is that a word?)  and emotionally ----- how could I be left behind?    That beginning of forgiveness was merely the tip of the iceberg for me.  It's still wrenching to remember how sad sad sad sad sad the funeral was because there was not ONE soul who came for her.  Only immediate family.
 
It's my understanding that my mother was born to a large family.  Her parents decided they couldn't "afford" her and sent her to live with strangers.  Of course this little child was wounded.  Now years later, I am working to heal the damage and stop the cycle in myself and my own family.    The human psyche is so fragile.  I don't believe that these Ns are born bad so I try to keep that perspective when I feel attacked and threatened by other Ns.      As always, love to hear your perspectives...

[Alan]

I just lost a big reply.  Oh well.

If you believe in basic psychological tenants,  if we didnt' get the building blocks early in life, we will have this emptiness inside, which is something Ns exploit.  

Therapy, if worked at, will give us those tools to understand why things are the way they are.  The therapist should become the "parent" we never had, our advocate.  This is also standard.  If we couldn't get knowledge and develop boundries from our parents, then, we need to get it from somewhere or someone.  I am a product of this concept.

I believe we don't need validation from outside to confirm we exist, it's to confirm we matter.  It's a basic human need,  to mean something to ourselves or someone else.  If we didn't get the proper building blocks early on, we then walk around empty inside.  It never fully leaves us, but, we are in better position to take care of ourselves.  I know it has for me.  I am an Emotional Warrior, but, the garbage can leak out.  Ns prove that to us.

I am beginning to see the tho he wasn't, my father's mother was an N.  I need to continue to ponder that.  He was never emotionally there for my family and my mother and brother, 3 years after his death, they are still struggling with it.  I am not bec. through help, I have truly resolve my issues with him. I'm OK

My N on the other hand, is still wrestling with it.  She stills moves between the pain of his rejection of her (not understanding her) and the reconciliation they had one week before he died.  And he died 30 years ago.  

My N projects all her problems on others, and in this divorce situation, it becomes obvious everytime I talk to her.  As posted elsewhere, after my first divorce, I learned and researched and studied what most humans need, want and should work at to find a healthy relationship.  I took that into this marriage.  She said to me the other night that I "have been running away from it" all my life (another part of her defense of "projection" which, now that I am aware, I see in almost every response she has to me).  Interestingly, when she did go to therapy (which she doesn't really believe in) the therapist gave us tools to workout out problems.  When it came time to put it into practice, she refused.  Her attitude is that most people who are in therapy cannot think for themselves, that they rely on the therapist to tell us what to do, that we can't think for ourselves.  How arrogant (hmm, an N symptom). She believes that all healing comes only from our own heart, and it must be free from outside influences.  She can't fathom the notion that we need to collect all the info we don't have and then make healthy choices from all the input.  I agree some folks will use the therapist to tell them what to do, those who can't or won't go to the dark places and feel the original pain to move forward.  

Unless it is genetic, Ns are not born bad.  They have had bad things forced upon them.  And they refuse to see the pain they have and inflict on others.

We heal at our own pace, but we do heal.

[Anna]

I believe we don't need validation from outside to confirm we exist, it's to confirm we matter.  

..... that we matter.  Good word.  More clear.  I like that.  Thanks Alan.

[Alan]

You are very welcome.  Exact words indicate exact feelings. And they attack the tapes that play in our heads.  My N's words were usually inexact or false.  When words and behavior don't work, there is a problem to be found.

[Discounted Girl]

I don't like to sound bitter -- sure is hard though. I think everyday about how I will handle the time when my mother passes. I have no intentions of attending the funeral. I refuse to be a hypocrite. I have not spoken to her since she threw me out of the house on the day of my father's funeral -- she is the QueenN and if she is not the star of whatever stage is playing, she will create a scene and make the focus on herself, no matter how disgusting. I have exhausted my mind, eyes from from reading and mouth from talking trying to figure out how she got this way. But you know what -- she is just plain mean and nasty, hateful, a liar, fake and cheater. A wild animal in the woods has more love for her offspring than my mother ever had for me. I was abandoned in a most hypocritcal way -- unobservable to the outside, but yet so many through the years knew something was "not quite right." So did I, but I thought it was ME ????? I only learned of the N thing after my father passed. I am furious with myself for not knowing this before and for going around with blinders and being her/their rube, bafoon, scapegoat, whatever. People say, oh she was/is just jealous of you and what you made of yourself. My children have advanced in their education and careers beyond me (I made sure of it) and I am not envious of that -- I am proud of them and wish only the very very best for them. Oh well, now my heart is pounding hard again. If I could rent a cloud that would pass over the whole world and would tell everyone what a witch she is and what she did to me, I would be very happy. Not because I want any apologies or anything at all from her (I enjoy the silence of her big mouth harping on me) but I cannot shake the NEED? for others to ACKNOWLEDGE? (they don't need to understand or agree or anything) I don't know about VALIDATE? this life situation I have lived in and still am ALIVE !!! and not in a psycho ward somewhere. While I may leave this world tomorrow, it is probable that she will die before me, and then others will look at me and think,,, ohhh, she should have overlooked all that -- let bygones by bygones, made an attempt to make things right. I swear if anyone says that to me, I will lose it. I may wind up totally alone in this world, because I cannot abide fakes and phonies and artificial relationships. My aunts have said to me "we cannot understand how you came out of all this so sweet, smart and kind" -- but yet, they sit/sat in her presence and listened to the LIES about me and my husband. I did not know that was going on and noone felt I should know. I have been so betrayed by just about everyone and I just cannot figure out why. Oh well, sorry to blabber on and on -- this NPD thing is new to me and I think it must be some hush-hush type disorder or else very rare, but it sure is a killer if you are a sensitive person. I used to think my depression was from my sensitive mind, or my sensitive mind was from my depression, now I know the whole thing is from my N mother. It is just so nasty and dirty to think I was a little baby and she hated me -- it makes my skin crawl. Sometimes I wonder if she tried or thought about killing me as an infant -- I think she is capable of that -- she might have if she thought she could have gotten away with it. My father kept her in check so she didn't go TOO overboard, but in his later years, he seemed to copycat her N ways. I think he got sick and she got too powerful and he just gave in. It's nasty nasty this N stuff -- wicked and evil and I don't have any pity on the N's only those they abuse. Thanks for listening -- now my head is also pounding .

[Tinkergirl]

hi discounted girl,

i can identify with your entire post, and i wanted to say thanks for sharing.  the one thing that i wish for you though is to grow out and through that anger...by remaining so sensitive and angry towards your N mom you are still allowing her the power to affect your life (even your body...considering your heart and head were pounding after the post).  all of your emotions are so completely valid but i would hate for you to continue allowing her one ounce of power in your life.  you are so much more, so much better than that.  i wish for you to find some way to accept her horrible behavior for what it is and just get sad about it, certainly to mourn the loss of the mother you never had, but also to just pity a woman who has such illness and hatred in her bones.  she is very alone, even if she does have "followers".

i allowed my N mom (unwittingly) to rule my behavior for 30 years and i had to put my foot down once and for all.  yes, we don't speak anymore either but the key to really getting out from under her reign is to unlearn her horrid behaviors (like anger) and not forgive her, but to forgive yourself for every feeling you ever have.  not to make excuses for yourself and not to allow her or anyone to make your heart or head pound out of anger and despair ever again.  you won't ever be alone if you can break out of the N mom spell of hurt and anger...she has taught you all too well how to direct it towards yourself.  stop the cycle and give up trying to get anyone to acknowledge your life (i desperately wanted that too).  the only one who will validate it will be you (you lived with the monster behind closed doors), and you know you are speaking the truth.  take care.

[seeker]

hello everyone,

In answering the question, how do you explain to others, it occurred to me that perhaps it is our similar profound experiences that bring us together.  I'm thinking of war buddies, new mothers, etc.  One of my children has a learning difference.  It is a subtle, invisible handicap (like being voiceless   ).  I've tried explaining to parents whose children don't have this issue, and it just bounces off and falls on the floor, even though they want to understand.  Only people who have walked that mile in our shoes will get it.  And fortunately for us, there is this "voiceless" board to help us find each other.

This quote from Discounted Girl (love that handle!) caught my eye:

she is the QueenN and if she is not the star of whatever stage is playing, she will create a scene and make the focus on herself, no matter how disgusting

My NSIL adopted a second child to "create a scene" when someone else just had one.  We were expected to be there when she was ready to say "catch!" once the novelty wore off.  Plus, if you rally around, you are interfering and if you stay back, you don't care.  I get to pick how I lose.  OK, I don't care.  And that was really hard because I felt pretty bad for the adopted boy who was out of the frying pan and into the fire, as far as I could tell.

I just rented Chicago finally and of course as a "cellophane" person, I saw the whole thing as a statement on Narcissism, which I guess was the point.  One of the lines that really stuck was "what are you going to believe? What ya saw or what I tell ya?"   That hits on Truth.  I am beginning to realize that everyone has their own "truth" and my own "truth" is necessary for ME, not for anyone else.  Other people are going to believe what they need to believe whether or not it is the "truth" or it is "reality".  

The other thing that was weird in the movie was the competitiveness between the two lead characters.  They both knew they were both phonies.  They never believe anyone!  They only see ploys for attention.

But it is what it is.  One lesson I am learning is, the more you fight something, the more power you give it.  So, D.G., next time you feel caught up in a web of anger, try thinking of the Devil's Snare in the Harry Potter movie. The heroes had to relax to get out of it.  It helps me sometimes.

Thanks for reading this ramble and for your attention   S.