Pseudo intimacy and being the "good girl"

[Bella_French]

Just handing intimacy and our selves, emotionally or otherwise, isn't something good girls do.  I sort of picture it as the belly up position.....

"don't hurt me, I'm trusting you"

Lighter,

This comment really struck me.  I think this is what I do.  Being vulnerable to show my bad or good side didnt sound like me.  But this does. 

And it seems so counter-intuitive to use this tactic when I do it when the person is the LEAST trustworthy.  Hmm.  Makes me think of that common adage:  "Insanity is when you do the same thing over and over, expecting different results."  As soon as a person goes belly-up (and--pardon the graphic comment--this is a very interesting word picture when you are talking about using your sexuality this way), they signal to the other person that they are powerless.  To an N, that has to be like handing them free drugs.

Okay.  So what would the more powerful position be?  And what kind of person would that attract?  And what kind of person would I be, if my automatic response wasn't belly up?  (Because I do think that you can change your actions by your thoughts--but equally true is that you can change your thoughts by your actions.)

I really enjoy your way of thinking CB. These are very interesting questions that you've raised; thank you for writing.

I can follow your point about transparency in a relationship feeling like being `belly up'. But I'm not really sure if N's always interpret `transparency' in others as` vulnerability' as such; I think they see it more as a threat in many situations. Being paranoid masters of projective identification, I'm pretty sure an N would see your `transparency' more as a play for power, because it puts a subtle pressure on them to also be transparent (which would undermine their power, which is built on deception). Also, its very likely that they would assume you are holding things back anyway- not truly being transparent-  and are only pretending to be transparent so you can `see their cards' too. Such is the paranoia of an N.

For me personally, the best and easiest way to detect and repel and N, is to say `No' to them once or twice, or just not give them the control they want. N's are looking for people they can control. If your `transparency' is the means by which you allow others to control youl, they will be attracted to that, and possibly assume that the have some control over you. However, if you say `no' to their control, no matter how much they know about you, or how intimate you have become to them, the transparency will not matter; they will lose interest fast enough.

Yesterday this guy (I need to come up with a name) was telling me all the ideas he had run through in his head to get me for my birthday.  I know he is very well-off, but the kind of things he was naming were things that you dont really get someone that you have only gone out with a few times.  Maybe I'm reading him wrong, but I don't think so:  I think he was doing what XNH did when he described the perfect romantic relationship.  I stayed very in the moment and aware, and I thought to myself: he's just talking.  This is never going to happen. 

In every other romantic relationship I have ever had, I would have discounted the other cues I was getting and would have believed the words.  And I would have been deeply wounded and hurt at the broken promises.  And I would have retaliated in some way, and he would have lashed back.  And we would have been off to the races. 
 

CB, If this man is N'ish (and i trust your judgment ) , I suspect that the reason he is talking about buying you these expensive gifts (rather than just going out and buying them for you) is he is monitoring your reaction, in terms of the potential payoff for HIM. In any case, I agree that its too early to be baited into sense of obligation to this man. You'd want to be sure about what he wants in return, before agreeing to any unspoken contracts between the two of you.

X bella

[Ami]

I was listening to more of the Caroline Myss Cd's on self esteem. She says that you
always have to be "willing" to be alone". That was profound to me. I saw that I used to be this way  with female friends. When I had my best friends, I knew that I would be fine with them or without them. I loved and enjoyed them ,but their friendship did not define my worth or lack of it                                                                           .I got to that point with Maria last week. I realized that I had to stand up for myself. She seemed to get more respect for me. That saddened me  to see that we have to have our own "power" in all relationships. It is sad. However,it is the way of the world, I guess. 
   I think that Caroline Myss is saying the same thing with a male - female relationship. Your first job  has to be to keep your own self esteem. That brings me to the HUGE guilt over selfishness. We HAVE to be selfish, I think..
  Myss is saying that there are certain truths. You can live  according to them  and be healthy or live outside them and be sick .                                        Love   Ami

[axa]

CB

Just a quick note......... New Man talking about buying you expensive gift for your birthday.  XN wanted to buy me a convertable bmw after I knew him a month.  Reality, lucky if I got a boxed gift from the pharmacy and for my 50th nothing........... oh, sorry but I feel a red flag coming on.  Another conversation comes to mind.  At the suggestion that he did not treat his xwife very well his response was  "well I bought her a mercedes..........." another one of those open mouthed stunned moments for me.  Don't want to put a damper on things for you CB but be careful you are too precious to me.

Axa

[Ami]

Besee
   You are cute .                                                                                      Ami

[sally]

Hi CB and Everyone,

I don't mean to belabor the issue, but I am fascinated as to why we didn't recognize Red Flags.

For me, Dr. Grossman put in very succinctly in http://www.voicelessness.com/intimacy.html:

Dr. Grossman says that children of Ns "dulled the abrasive experience of day to day family life by paying little attention"

To me, this means that, as children, we were trained to pay little attention to reality and therefore,  we were trained to not see red flags.

Love,
sally

[Certain Hope]

Thank you for this thread, Axa.

And Sally, that essay of Dr. Grossman's about intimacy is still teaching me so much...

One of the thing that being a good girl meant to me was... for 15 years married to my childrens' dad, I'd often lie there in a sleeping position which would cause me terrible neck discomfort, or difficulty breathing, and never wake him or re-position myself... thinking that being physically close that way was intimacy... even though it hurt so much.

Also, about not seeing the red flags...  I think that being highly sensitive can create a system overload which causes a shutdown... so not only are senses dulled, but literally they blank out.

And I think about how the men in my past relationships have been so pleased with the fact that they didn't have to work so hard to "impress" me and I never nagged. I couldn't even speak up when I was in physical pain... because I couldn't stand to inconvenience someone or risk offending them. Red flags were completely out of my line of non-sight.

Hope

[Poppyseed]

This conversation has got me thinking...processing rather.  Not sure I can verbalize yet.  But as I look into my past relationships,  I can tell you that most of the time I see the red flags  but I let it all go cuz I didn't believe I deserved better.  I also did the needing intimacy so very much that I gave away the farm to get it.  Talk about immature and needy.  Besee, I am afraid I can give you a run for your money. 

With regards to Dr grossmans comments on intimacy, I don't think I have ever had a successfully intimate relationship.  But the profile doesn't fit me.  Not quite sure what that makes me.  Broken? Birth defect?  It really fits my H though.  Almost to a T! 

[lighter]

Oh crap.... the reply I wrote and attempted to post last night didn't go through.

It was abouit why we go belly up and vulnerable for those least worthy of our trust,  CB.

I think it does have something to do with our eternal FOO struggle....

but also.....

just maybe....

receiving affection and devotion from a nice boy isn't so special?

But receiving it from a bad boy....

is?

Both scenarios make me want to slide down walls contemplating them. 


I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to get daddy to love me

I want to feel it's special when someone worthy is giving me respect and being kind to me.

I think I've about got it figured out.....

if I can just sustain those boundaries. 

::bucking self up to do just that tonight::

Calm..... serenity...

::neck burning... stinging::

Peace....

self care.....

calmly defending boundaries.....

calmly asserting self is what I'm concentrating on.....

no matter what the response is, that's what I'll be doing. 

::assuming Karate Kid Crane stance::

IT'S NOT HELLLLLPPPPIIIIIINNNNNGGGG!

::ahem::

WHERE ARE THOSE DAMNED SMELLY CANDLES!?!? 

I'M POUR'IN MYSELF A LUXURIOUSE BATH!!!

DAMNIT. 

[Bella_French]

Question:  so many of you have posted that you worried I would be hurt.  It's made me think more along the idea that Axa originally posted on this thread:  what about the ability to have a light relationship that doesnt get into heavy conversations and self-revelations? 

Do you think that it is the degree of self-revelation that determines the degree of hurt?  Like you have shared some deep part of yourself and then an N behavior feels like a wound to your inner self? 

Perhaps it actually IS a wound to your inner self?  Is the wound shame-based? 

Does it become compounded when we (as we often do) try to convince the other person that we are wounded?

Can we become impervious to N-wounds by learning to not share deep parts of ourselves with strangers?  In other words, are we complicit in our wounding by kind of baring our chest to the plunge of the knife?  To continue the metaphor--if we learn to duck will there be an actual wound? 

I am curious about the dynamic that Axa has described and it has made me think about it more.

Love
CB

Dear CB, Yes, I think hiding our emotional vulnerabilities can contribute to avoiding N abuse, especially if that is the main way by which we tend to be abused. However, I also think it is possible to be abused by N's via any vulnerability, and it doesn't necessarily have to be related to an emotional wound. For example, you may be vulnerable due to being in love with the N,  or being the N's employee, or being in a poor financial situation, or you are struggling because you are a sole parent with too many responsibilities to handle alone......people can be vulnerable in any number of ways.

Also, I have noticed that N's are attracted to strong and powerful people who they envy (and wish to destroy),  as much as they are as attracted to vulnerable people who they feel they can control. I feel that they adapt their abuse to suit the person & situation as well as their feelings about them, and they will go so far as to create vulnerabilities by undermining a person's power base, if the person is not otherwise vulnerable.

I really think the best way to avoid N abuse is to avoid closeness with them at all costs. I don't think there is a way to be close to an N, or romantically attached to an N, and to avoid N abuse, unless you are totally prepared to be on alert 24/7 and to fight them using their tactics. To me all that drama and intense focus on a mental ill person is a waste of precious life that could be spent doing something more meaningful, like trying to preserve the forests, or plucking your stray eyebrow hairs.

X Bella

[Mati]

Wow I have learned so much from this thread. In fact from all of the board. I am so pleased that I have found it again at the moment. I am going through a great learning curve so thanks guys.

This from CB has leapt out

I have hashed and rehashed the pain and the wounds: from mother-wounds, to father-wounds, to sibling-wounds, to lover-wounds, to husband-wounds.  I have gone NC, set boundaries, gotten a divorce.  I have holed up in my own space and licked my wounds and given myself space to think and grow.  I have gotten therapy, talked to 3-D friends, and you all.  How do I get rid of the rest of the fear?  I don't want to live for the rest of my life as a (I think this is Stormy's term) defensive pessimist.

I have found this happening to myself but it conflicts with my Christian beliefs. And the question for me is, and I am sorry if it will only be of interest to the Christians here, I apologise for that, but where does therapy step over the line as far as Christians are concerned?   When does self interest and self preservation become negative? How do we heal and not develop the fear that CB mentions? Where is the balance? I have not been finding it easy to find this balance this time around when reality has kicked in big time.

[Mati]

CB

But there is a season to everything, and you don't have to have everything together right now.

Yes that is so true. I really believe in the process. I have not just heard about NPD. I have been in recovery for 3 years now, and reading about it but lately, a higher level of awareness has kicked in somehow. It's like I now fully see the extent of the abuse whereas before I was only seeing some of it. Also I have been seeing my dark side this time and am shocked at what I see but that is pride isn't it? We want to see ourselves as victims and good girls, well not so much the victim as we become enlightened or heal from personality disorder. I am shocked by the way that i have abandoned my own children and not been there for them emotionally but then I had abandoned myself after a childhood of abandonment. I don't know whether they are ever going to forgive me. It will be certainly harder to forgive myself.

Yes I do think that you do need to be in a safe place to heal and i am living on my own though have contact with my H who is seriously PD'ed. I think that I have reached a place where I can handle him. I learned to do that with my mother by realising that my needs would never be met by her. The same realisation is happening with my husband and i am starting to feel the same pity but in a detached way, but really facing the reality that what I longed for and tried to get from them is not going to happen.

I know that it feels bad to be suspicious, esp. if you have embraced the belief to "count others as more important than yourself".

Actually no, this is a misunderstanding of Christianity and the Bible does not teach this, bit it is easy to see why it would turn someone against the faith  if that is the conclusion. Scripture teaches us to be as wise as serpents and therefore to see others in their true light, which in the case of NPD means dangerous. This is not suspicion but reality, and the questions is how to deal with them? I believe that they are only harmful if our sense of self is distorted and if we are not functioning from a basis of love. Of course a child is less likely to have this basis if it has known nothing else. If we do have it then I think that we will not need to be suspicious towards everyone because we will not be vulnerable and open to having this sense of self damaged and the truth veiled and we will be wise. I have found that having my relationship with my maker restored, puts me right into reality and because perfect love casts out fear and the truth sets us free (and scripture says the truth is Jesus Christ)

In the process of my healing, i believe that God only allowed me to see as much as i could cope with at the time but now i can take a step forward. It is causing me terrific pain at the moment, unbearable but I know that it is necessary. Maybe i will have to accept having a personality disorder myself. I know that God will heal it though.

The scripture teaches us to love others AS we love ourselves ourselves which means that we must first love ourselves and this is what the healing is all about i think. Along with loving ourselves is being switched into reality so that we can see how we have been abused and then how we have abused others. I believe that the process is laid out in the 12 steps program.

The next step in the Biblical way of wholeness, once we love this self and take care of it, is to deny it. To reach this stage requires us to give up all self protection, at least in its very profound levels, and I do not think it either possible or wise to do this if we are still denying the existence of our maker, and not under His protection. We have no choice, we either turn to Him to protect us or we do it ourselves.

I have found that doing it God's way is going to be the only way that i am going to reach wholeness, to the extent that I see the fullness of wholeness possible. There are degrees, but I have had a taste of the fullness and  the freedom peace and joy were beyond understanding and life was indeed like rivers of flowing water with the fountain of joy springing up eternally (pictures from scripture about what is attainable in full recovery) I won't be satisfied with anything less and so I must see myself as I really am. And the process can  take place quite quickly if we are ready. I feel ready. I want abundant life.

love
Mati

[Certain Hope]

Wow I have learned so much from this thread. In fact from all of the board. I am so pleased that I have found it again at the moment. I am going through a great learning curve so thanks guys.

This from CB has leapt out

I have hashed and rehashed the pain and the wounds: from mother-wounds, to father-wounds, to sibling-wounds, to lover-wounds, to husband-wounds.  I have gone NC, set boundaries, gotten a divorce.  I have holed up in my own space and licked my wounds and given myself space to think and grow.  I have gotten therapy, talked to 3-D friends, and you all.  How do I get rid of the rest of the fear?  I don't want to live for the rest of my life as a (I think this is Stormy's term) defensive pessimist.

I have found this happening to myself but it conflicts with my Christian beliefs. And the question for me is, and I am sorry if it will only be of interest to the Christians here, I apologise for that, but where does therapy step over the line as far as Christians are concerned?   When does self interest and self preservation become negative? How do we heal and not develop the fear that CB mentions? Where is the balance? I have not been finding it easy to find this balance this time around when reality has kicked in big time.

Dear Mati,

Me, too... and I think that you've addressed this dilemma quite well in your last post.

The balance, I believe, comes with forgiveness, and yet that forgiveness is not a feeling... but a deliberate choice of will, in obedience to the Lord's command.
 My belief now is that these wrongs must first be recognized and acknowledged - both the offenses of those who've wounded us and our own offenses toward others - before that forgiveness can be offered and received. Taking all of this mess to the cross is what brings healing, as a believer acknowledges that every bit of it was crucified there. After all, there can't be a rebirth until there's been a death...
and there can't be a denial of self until that self is dug out from the rubble and faced square-on.
I'm easily thrown for a loop, Madi... knocked off my feet and left with head spinning... but one thing I know.
There is only one sure foundation, and that is Jesus Christ... the Rock which shall not be moved 
And so that's where I draw the line when it comes to this self-exploration - it is crucial to me to not exchange a damaged/invisible self for a new worldly-based self, but rather receive that new life which is only available in Him... that abundant life.

With love,
Hope

[Ami]

_{[
What I was expressing in my post comes from years of hashing this stuff out.  I didnt have the word NPD in my vocabulary, but I had the concept figured out and I spent the last five years (!) literally hiding from the world because I didnt know how to tackle it.  Although I look back and it's hard not to regret all that I missed out on because of it, I can see how that time was valuable and it was time well spent in terms of getting to know myself.  I think I could have done it faster, if I had had the support we have here--but I think that the time of being suspicious of everyone was probably necessary}.


Dear CB,
 Isn't it sad that when I first found the board,I had people wanting to shame me for looking within and trying to heal ?                                                                    Ami

[Mati]

My belief now is that these wrongs must first be recognized and acknowledged - both the offenses of those who've wounded us and our own offenses toward others - before that forgiveness can be offered and received. Taking all of this mess to the cross is what brings healing, as a believer acknowledges that every bit of it was crucified there. After all, there can't be a rebirth until there's been a death...
and there can't be a denial of self until that self is dug out from the rubble and faced square-on.
I'm easily thrown for a loop, Madi... knocked off my feet and left with head spinning... but one thing I know.
There is only one sure foundation, and that is Jesus Christ... the Rock which shall not be moved  Smile
And so that's where I draw the line when it comes to this self-exploration - it is crucial to me to not exchange a damaged/invisible self for a new worldly-based self, but rather receive that new life which is only available in Him... that abundant life.

Perfectly put hope. And it can't be put to death until it is 'given life' that is until we see it.

Ami, how could you be shamed for looking within and trying to heal? We are told to see ourselves as God sees us so of course we must look within. But we must also depend on Him for healing if we want to do it His way which is the best way. 

[Ami]

Dear Mati,
  That post was so profound. I misinterpreted many Biblical things  and it kept me a  me a victim.I want to say that I think that you have gained much,much wisdom from going through your struggles.
  You are an uplifting and inspiring voice, I am so, so glad that you are here, Mati.
   I need to "study" your posts more before I comment directly on them             Love   Ami