Pseudo intimacy and being the "good girl"

[Ami]

CB,
  I am really,really angry that I was bullied and shamed when I came on the board-- simply b/c I wanted to heal -in an honest and deep way.
   The board is totally different ,now. there are MANY strong voices,as you can see.. No one could be bullied the way that I was without MANY people coming to their rescue.
  So, I learned  lessons about people's pettiness .All is well that  ends well.      Ami
 

[tayana]

Axa,

What a great thread.  I'm glad you posted it.  I have problems with this too.  You said:

My experience is that I am often attracted to people who are very damaged and drama addicts..... a reflection of myself, I wonder.  I have a desire to be around more whole people.  I also find that the majority of people are not particularily interested in what I have to say, they are more concerned about getting their 2 cents in.

I do this, and I have the same results.  My son's father was a damaged, drama addict, and I wanted to "fix" him.  I let myself get into a situation because I didn't know how to get out, and I thought I was helping him.  I mistakenly thought he would fix me too.

The problem I've noticed that I have is that I'm too controlled all the time.  I was never allowed to have real, authentic feelings, so I don't express them well now.  I laugh at jokes, but I don't find them funny.  I don't really know how to have fun, because I can't stop thinking about other things.  I have a hard time touching and being touched.  Giving a hug is hard for me, but at the same time I want that sort of intimacy.  I just don't know how to get there.

I want to be able to go somewhere and relax and enjoy myself, instead I'm tense and I can't relax. I don't know how to fix that.  I read somewhere about a woman who could be very loving with her pets, but not with other people.  That's sort of how I feel.  I just don't know how to be intimate with other people, and I hate that.

[tayana]

Authentic,

I'm just not comfortable touching.  I try hard to do it.  I try giving myself son hugs, but I don't really like it.  he's a very touchy-feely person, and I don't want to be touched.

I don't like for my mom to touch me at all, and if she comes up and gives me an unexpected hug, I about come undone.

The worst of it is, I don't feel anything, other than I don't like the touch.  I feel sick, that's all.  I'm getting better with my son, but I still find extending touch, like having him leaning against me uncomfortable.

[CB123]

I'm sorry, Ami.  I wouldnt do anything to hurt you on purpose.  I can tell from your posts that you are really angry, but I can't tell if you are angry with me or with someone else. 

I went back and looked at our interchanges when you first came, and they were very warm--both from me to you and you to me.  So, I may be just paranoid now that you are expressing your anger.  But please know that you mean the world to me.  My offer to PM still stands, or if you want to start a new thread that would be okay too.

I will be off the board for a couple of days probably because I have a really neat opportunity coming up that I want to take advantage of.  I can tell you all about it when I get back. 

Much love to you, Ami,
CB

[Ami]

CB
My anger is at you. If you don't get it, I am not willing to explain it anymore.. I tried to explain in several different ways. That is all I am willing to do. If you do not comprehend, then I want to go forward, as you should.
  This is as far as I am willing to go. I hope that you can respect that .                   Ami
       

[Poppyseed]

Authentic,

Your above post has disturbed me.  I don't wish to cause anymore conflict by adding a word here but I feel like I must say something.  I can see that there are some feelings between CB and Ami -- something I am sorry to see.  But I don't see how your above post does anybody on this board any good.  It seems you have your view of the events but I have looked at CB's comments and they feel genunine to me.   I see that you want to defend a friend but what I see happening is unfair labeling and a stirring of more contention.   I appreciate that Ami is in pain and in a fragile state at times.  But most of us on this board are as well.  And I must say that when people are in pain, I think it is easier to become overly sensitive or to see manipulation and harshness in everyone. 

With this form of communication, there are bound to be misunderstandings.  We can't see each others facial expressions.  We don't know each others mode of discourse first hand.  We come from different places and cultures. Our ways of conveying information, opinion and feelings could be very different.   When I see this kind of labeling, I feel indirectly hurt by it.  It contributes, directly to the compomised safety that we should all, IMO, try to preserve in a place like this board.  I feel that it is unfortunate that Ami and CB couldn't have handled their differences privately. It sounds like to me that they are both sincere but may not be understanding one another. It seems to me that a forgiving and honest dialogue could produce more good than a public slander.   All of my experience with CB has been postitive.  I can only say that I see kindness and an effort at peacemaking in her statements.  She has offerring to take the conversation to a private setting.  Amy choses not to.  It sounds like you feel differently about CB's posts which you have every right to.  But your outlining of her statments isn't proof of her intensions.  It is only your opinion.  I guess I wonder what you are trying to achieve.  Putting one of us above another in importance?  Trying to win support for your position?  I see you feel you need to speak.  But I think there are higher principles at stake.  And I think this board could benefit from less of this kind of communication.  Couldn't we handle problems with patience and listening and truly agreeing to disagree in peaceful ways?  Why is it so hard to accept someones hand of friendship or hand of peace?  It is something that is hard for me to understand.  Maybe the pain we have been through has caused us to learn to defend ourselves.  But I have a hard time believing that those on this board are here with horrible intentions.  I think we are all trying to heal in the best ways we know how.  It is clear Ami has chosen her path of healing.  Maybe CB understands and maybe she doesn't.  I cannot say.  But whether or not she does, is an issue between the two.  It is none of my business.  And I don't like it being made my business.  Both individuals are capable.  Both have incredible capacity for love.  I am confident they can come to terms.   And I am sorry that feelings are stirred in this case.  I just feel that this added railroading and these fights aired openly on the airways, IMO, hurt the enitre board. At least they hurt my sensibilities of how I feel we should all be respected with our weaknesses and all.

Just my gentle opinion.  I send it with peaceful intention and with a desire to keep this board as safe as possible.  I am not saying that Ami is right and CB is wrong or vice versa.  I am only saying that I feel there are better ways to support a friend -- empathy understanding and peacebuilding comments.  That is what I hope for if I mistep or misstate or if someone is misunderstood by me.  It seems to me that BOTH of these individuals need support in their own views and in their own situations.  Couldn't we, for the sake of the board, pull back and handle these conflicts in a more peaceful fashion?  Couldn't we try harder to be long sufferring with each others percieved weakness?  Couldn't we forgive each other for having failings? weakness? character flaws?  Seems to me, we are all in the human frailty boat together.

--Poppy

[Poppyseed]

A direct apology to Axa for the highjack. I am sorry.  I should have started another thread.  Perhaps I even should have PM ed Authentic.  My mistake. I am sorry.   I will hand it straight back to you and your comments on being the "good girl".

[Hopalong]

Hi all.

I remember earlier on the board I was afraid of Certain Hope. Ooo, I did not like her.
I made a few remarks. I was defensive. I snarked. Maybe mildly, but she's no dummy.
I wanted her to go away.
She scared me.

It had nothing to do with Hope at all. It was me, hearing an old voice from my childhood,
ascribing motives and intentions to Hope that had only to do with the eyes with which I was seeing her.

TRUTH? FAIRNESS? It was my beady little pupils.

Hope did go away for a while.    I thought of her but didn't really want to.
A while back, she came back again. Just politely and gently started participating again.

I AM SO GLAD.

I heard her voice freshly. For some reason, my walls of defensiveness and projection (oh, Certain Hope is too certain for me...and anyone THAT religious is going to judge and skewer Unitarian Universalist me...etc.)...went away. Fell down like the walls of Jericho.

I read her. I heard her. I LIKED HER. I trusted her! I still do. Bam. It's just there. Enmity dissolved, mistrust evaporated. This is a good person and we had a wobbly start and that's one great big So What.

Not only that but she wrote me a tremendously grace-ful (verbally and spiritually) note to smooth the waters.
She stuck out her hand in friendship. I don't think I deserved it. She was walking her walk.

Because of my early wounds from religous training, I had been CHOOSING to look at this dear person in a suspicious and hostile light. After some minor irritation or misunderstanding that I didn't want to let go of. So I didn't "get" her or she didn't "get" me (I can't remember who said what at first, I don't cruise backward.) She not only forgave me but looked right past all that to say something very very kind to me.

That exchange...that change...was for me a microcosm the the very best this board has to offer.
Thank you, ((((((((((((((Hope))))))))))))))))) !
You, honey, put the st in Christian for me.

Poppy, you said it better than I can. But I share with you the hope that most of us will keep knowing,
despite sour episodes, what wonderful people are here and how sincerely they share.

We could spend our gimlet-eyed energy looking for the most negative interpretations and stay ready to pounce, we could nurture grudges until they grow green mold...those are option. Bleak ones, but they're choices.

I vote for renewal, for compassionate interpretation, and for treating people's intentions with respect. The log in one's own eye, and all that.

I believe supporting a vulnerable friend is an honorable and good thing to do.
But what may sound piously loyal can also provide a screen behind which something wounded lashes out quite viciously, all in the name of loyalty.

Ami, I'm sorry you carry a bad bruise. I think I was one person who didn't welcome you well, who didn't respect you knowing for yourself what process, what way of writing and working, was right for you. I am sorry for that. You set me straight and I believed you. And now I just read and appreciate how intensely you are doing what you have to do.

I hope you will let go of your grudge against CB. How can it help you to nurse it? I believe you. You were misunderstood by one member of a board some time back. Do you think you could let it go? 

Jac, you go off like a violent cannon now and then. I know it's destructive to you. It might scare others too. I know sometimes you scare me. I hope you'll get control...you're not in danger here. And Ami is not helpless.

A little humility helps. It's easy to confuse that with being a victim, but they're not the same.

Hope I've helped and not poured kerosene on flame. But CB is a good person. And just after she's been feeling so good about her new life, and just after posting such a detailed, brave story...it made me sick to see her so maligned.

It felt...malignant. And made me sad.

I don't think this post will fix anything but silence doesn't feel right either. I'll duck and cover now, but first close with this:

How about we all spread kindness, and let grudges go with the breeze?

(If you think that's nicey-nice, I need to borrow a blood pressure cuff.)

love,
Hops

[Ami]

  Hops, I remember the friction that we had at the beginning. HOWEVER, you graciously left me to find my voice--only giving love, help and support along the way. The other person in question continued shaming me and trying to shut down my vulnerable attempts to heal..It is a real issue.It is as real an issue as any other.I stayed only b/c of pure grit. How many other people have left?
  It has been addressed. It has been said.I, for one, am done with it.
  Other voices getting involved will only be like a massive pig pile like when we were kids on the playground                                                                 Ami
 

[Hopalong]

Okay, Ami. I know there's different chemistry between different twosomes.
I'll step back and hope there's resolution.

Hard to tell the difference between meddling and watching Kitty Genovese out the window.

love,
Hops

[Certain Hope]

Hi all.

I remember earlier on the board I was afraid of Certain Hope. Ooo, I did not like her.
I made a few remarks. I was defensive. I snarked. Maybe mildly, but she's no dummy.
I wanted her to go away.
She scared me.

It had nothing to do with Hope at all. It was me, hearing an old voice from my childhood,
ascribing motives and intentions to Hope that had only to do with the eyes with which I was seeing her.

TRUTH? FAIRNESS? It was my beady little pupils.

Hope did go away for a while.    I thought of her but didn't really want to.
A while back, she came back again. Just politely and gently started participating again.

I AM SO GLAD.

I heard her voice freshly. For some reason, my walls of defensiveness and projection (oh, Certain Hope is too certain for me...and anyone THAT religious is going to judge and skewer Unitarian Universalist me...etc.)...went away. Fell down like the walls of Jericho.

I read her. I heard her. I LIKED HER. I trusted her! I still do. Bam. It's just there. Enmity dissolved, mistrust evaporated. This is a good person and we had a wobbly start and that's one great big So What.

Not only that but she wrote me a tremendously grace-ful (verbally and spiritually) note to smooth the waters.
She stuck out her hand in friendship. I don't think I deserved it. She was walking her walk.

Because of my early wounds from religous training, I had been CHOOSING to look at this dear person in a suspicious and hostile light. After some minor irritation or misunderstanding that I didn't want to let go of. So I didn't "get" her or she didn't "get" me (I can't remember who said what at first, I don't cruise backward.) She not only forgave me but looked right past all that to say something very very kind to me.

That exchange...that change...was for me a microcosm the the very best this board has to offer.
Thank you, ((((((((((((((Hope))))))))))))))))) !
You, honey, put the st in Christian for me.

Poppy, you said it better than I can. But I share with you the hope that most of us will keep knowing,
despite sour episodes, what wonderful people are here and how sincerely they share.

We could spend our gimlet-eyed energy looking for the most negative interpretations and stay ready to pounce, we could nurture grudges until they grow green mold...those are option. Bleak ones, but they're choices.

I vote for renewal, for compassionate interpretation, and for treating people's intentions with respect. The log in one's own eye, and all that.

I believe supporting a vulnerable friend is an honorable and good thing to do.
But what may sound piously loyal can also provide a screen behind which something wounded lashes out quite viciously, all in the name of loyalty.

Ami, I'm sorry you carry a bad bruise. I think I was one person who didn't welcome you well, who didn't respect you knowing for yourself what process, what way of writing and working, was right for you. I am sorry for that. You set me straight and I believed you. And now I just read and appreciate how intensely you are doing what you have to do.

I hope you will let go of your grudge against CB. How can it help you to nurse it? I believe you. You were misunderstood by one member of a board some time back. Do you think you could let it go? 

Jac, you go off like a violent cannon now and then. I know it's destructive to you. It might scare others too. I know sometimes you scare me. I hope you'll get control...you're not in danger here. And Ami is not helpless.

A little humility helps. It's easy to confuse that with being a victim, but they're not the same.

Hope I've helped and not poured kerosene on flame. But CB is a good person. And just after she's been feeling so good about her new life, and just after posting such a detailed, brave story...it made me sick to see her so maligned.

It felt...malignant. And made me sad.

I don't think this post will fix anything but silence doesn't feel right either. I'll duck and cover now, but first close with this:

How about we all spread kindness, and let grudges go with the breeze?

(If you think that's nicey-nice, I need to borrow a blood pressure cuff.)

love,
Hops

Hey, Hops...  as a former beady-eye myself, I stand in agreement with all you've written above.

Malignant grudges and bitter roots of spite do crowd out the healing which alone can bring wholeness,
so I'm glad you posted here, Hops. Thank you for the reminder... and for setting such a great example.

Your method of speaking the truth in love is like grudge-chemo, purging out the half-truths and twisted-thinking
of bitterness and allowing the one ingredient we all need to remain.

I'm thankful that you've emerged from the trials and abuses of life with your heart intact, dear Hops... and I'm thankful that you are willing
to share your heart with us here, and especially thankful that you are my friend.

With love,
Carolyn

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
 .  Our lives as abused people were so hard BECAUSE we would not face hard issues or interactions(IMO).
 I think of the pain we could have been spared if we could have looked at a potential relationship with truth not "stars in our eyes"
  I see that part of being wise is stating the truth of my life in a  forthright manner.People get beaten and trampled when they do not have basic strength in life. Isn't THAT how we ended up so victimized.?
  My voice is a strong voice,but a loving and fair voice. A weak voice is not the ideal. A voice that will not see  the hard reality is not the ideal. That is a victims voice.                                Love  Ami
   
 

[Hopalong]

I hear you, Ami.
I know you are strong.

I'll stop here because triangulating isn't helpful and I've already done that.
I'm glad you responded though.

love
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Hops,
  I think that the relationship that we have is an 'ideal" relationship. We disagree on many,many things. We disagree on beliefs in God, therapy, support groups ,etc. We have disagreed from the beginning. However, you never took my difference  as a way to demean me or push me off the board.
  You continued to send kind words and love my way-- EVEN though I chose a different route of healing than you agreed with.You did not see me as a threat to your way of healing.  You respected that I was simply different than you.You respected my voice
  This is a model of friendship and love.This type of relationship would make the board safer.                                         Love    Ami

[Ami]

Dear Authentic,
  We have a right to ASK for an apology, BUT the person may never give it. . You have found your voice and your "space" in this world.You have found wisdom by fearless honesty..
  Many people in life will never give us an apology. The issue is NOT whether we deserve it. The issue is that your worth ( and mine) is not dependent on anyone else"understanding" or validating us.
  We stand up for our voices and then go on.We chose who we want to interact with.
  Our value is NOT based on if anyone else understands or agrees. The great leaders in history had no one on their side.Courage is being able to go forward alone.
  .We need to speak up when we are violated  and then go on-..This is true in any life situation.
  That is how I see it.                                                      Love  Ami