Pseudo intimacy and being the "good girl"

[Mati]

Dear Ami

Thankyou so much for that word of encouragement. I certainly need it at the moment as I am going through some monumental change and feeling fragile but it is good because i see progress like you. I am so pleased at what is happening for you.

I had an awful e-mail from my pastor yesterday, just because I mentioned that I have been thinking of moving and one reason
is that i am not getting fellowship at church and he blamed me for it and said that others have reached out to me and I have not responded! . It is utter rubbish. It really upset me but i have quickly found my bearings and am amazed at this improvement in myself. i am sure that coming here has made the difference.
love
Mati

[Certain Hope]

Mati,

After months of avoidance, it was just in the past few days that I was able to write to a pastor with whom I'd had some serious differences of perspective. I don't want to take this thread off course with it, but just wanted to say that it's been my experience here on this board, along with Dr. Grossman's essays, Bible study, and prayer which have made all the difference in my own perspective.
If you would like, at some point, to talk about these conflicts with church fellowships and leadership, I would like to participate in that discussion, because it's been a gigantic hurdle for me to address such things directly.
Thanks!

Hope

[Stormchild]

I am trying to decide how to complete the healing process in my life.  I have hashed and rehashed the pain and the wounds: from mother-wounds, to father-wounds, to sibling-wounds, to lover-wounds, to husband-wounds.  I have gone NC, set boundaries, gotten a divorce.  I have holed up in my own space and licked my wounds and given myself space to think and grow.  I have gotten therapy, talked to 3-D friends, and you all.  How do I get rid of the rest of the fear?  I don't want to live for the rest of my life as a (I think this is Stormy's term) defensive pessimist.

Oopsie... let me set the record straight on this one, it's an easy enough misinterpretation to make.

Defensive pessimism is not about defensiveness nor is it about being pessimistic. Nor is it about living in fear.

It's also not my term, actually; I have a link to it on one of me bloggies, though, because it is almost my religion .

It's Professor Julie Norem's term - from her book, "The Positive Power of Negative Thinking". http://www.wellesley.edu/Psychology/Norem/Book/book.html

I often wish she had chosen different terminology precisely because 'defensive pessimism' sounds so... defensive and pessimistic!

What it really is, is simple contingency planning.

You look at a situation, ask yourself, 'now, what's the worst that could happen here? Realistically?'

And then you prepare for that eventuality.

So if you have to travel to give a talk, you put a spare CD of your slides in your carry-on bag [do they still allow those? I haven't flown in a while] so that if your luggage goes missing, your talk doesn't vanish too, at least. 

Or if you have to go to work and it's snowing - and you live below the Mason-Dixon Line and only have 1/8 tank of gas left - you take the time to top up the gas tank on your way out of the neighborhood - even if it might make you late - because if the snow gets a lot worse, businesses might close early, it might take you a long time to get home in the evening, and gas stations may not be open.

[The Mason-Dixon Line qualification is necessary because down hyah, ten snowflakes together cause total panic. Up in New England and thereabouts, where [thank God] I learned to drive, the main thing that happens when snow gets worse is that everybody puts their tire chains on. So a defensive pessimist in New Hampshire will make sure she has her tire chains where she can get to them. AND a full tank of gas.]

Then, when your luggage is delayed, or the roads ice over and your half hour commute takes three hours, with or without tire chains, you're not frantically wishing you had anticipated and provided for the situation. You are living free of fear, as a matter of fact.

That's defensive pessimism. Every decent scientist, every good engineer uses it. It used to be called 'thinking ahead'. Me... I call it 'common sense', but I'm biased.

Now, on the other hand, one thing I really, really like about the term 'defensive pessimism' ....

.... is that its natural opposite is 'offensive optimism' !

**Snort** .... just think about what that might look like ....

[really, really icky revolting guys hitting on you in bars, for one. Offensively optimistic for sure! ]



Storm

[Stormchild]

Sorry... couldn't have gone more off topic if I'd used GPS to plot a route.

But I did want to restore the reputation of a fine, fine philosophy: hope for the best while preparing for the worst!

~~~ as you were, troops! ~~~

[sally]

~~~ as you were, troops! ~~~

Too funny, Storm.

After I googled the definition of 'defensive pessimism', I saw it was neither defensive, nor pessimistic.  Poor choice of title IMO.  As Storm said, it's just common sense.

Mati,
Good to hear your voice.  You sound like you've done a lot of healing work.  I would just say that as long as you have God in your heart, trust your gut and listen to the voice within yourself.

Love,
sally

[teartracks]

The mystery of 'defensive pessimism'.

Well, there's not much mystery in the definition of defensive pessimissom.   It is simply inverted optimism. 
One can't, or probably wouldn't take the time to plan for every possible contingency in a given situation, but you can plan for the obvious ones  and the ones important to reaching your goal.  My experience is that usually there will be three or four main or 'most likely', or most important possible contingencies for what I'm trying to dope out. 


So lets say the optimistic planner/thinker  lists his contingencies, A, B, C, D.  A is the absolute best possible outcome.  D is the worst.   All the planner/thinker has to do  is reverse the order, D, C, B, A.  to turn it into 'defensive pessimism'.  D is the absolute best possible outcome, A is the absolute worst.  For all practical purposes as far as I can see, it's a figure of speech.

Well, at least, that's my opinion

tt

[CB123]

Thanks for the definition, Storm.  I thought it was just a really expressive term that you had made up!  What you are describing here has been everyday life for me since I had kids!  So I sure get what you're talking about. 

Guess I'm going to have to come up with a different word for the fearful defensiveness that I am trying to work on. 

Dear CB,
 Isn't it sad that when I first found the board,I had people wanting to shame me for looking within and trying to heal ?

Ami,

I'm so sorry that this is hurting you.  I can't remember way back to when you came on the board, so I can't remember this incident.  But, I do remember my own delight with you and how glad I was that you were here.  And I still am.  You have your own unique voice and your own deep way of looking at things.  The board wouldnt be the same without you!

Love
CB

[sally]

Thanks for the validation, Authentic.

CB:
I also suffer from feeling fearful defensiveness.  I'm hoping it's a stage that I'm going thru and that I can turn it into courageous joyfulness or brave living.

I've done a bit of of work on feeling fear.  I listened to the CD "Feel the Fear and Do It anyway"  (forget the author; it's a woman) & it was helpful. 

Sometimes fear is justified and it's there to protect us, as in "I'm afraid of this person because I think he is a psychopath, so my fear is telling me to stay away".  That's good fear.  Don't loose that fear because it could save your life.

The fear that I think you're referring to is the fear that pervades our lives, immobilizes us and causes us to miss opportunities.  It's an irrational fear and I have a feeling that this type of fear may be a remnant of PTSD. That's the kind of fear I want to ditch.  I have a magnet on my frig which has a photo of Eleanor Roosevelt and this quote: "Do one thing everyday that scares you".   When I feel this type of irrational fear, I try to run the idea thru the defensive pessimism checklist, prepare for possible contingencies and then, if it seems OK,  I do it.

So, I still feel the fear, but do it anyway, just like the title of the CD.

Is this the type of fear your talking about?

Love,
sally

[Ami]

We will have to agree to disagree,CB

[sally]

Regarding fear and PTSD, have a look at Certain Hope's post called the "Fawn Response" posted today.  I basically had a melt down over it.  For me, it makes a connection between fear and co-dependence.

Love, sally

[Ami]

Dear Sally,
  I went on that website. He has a lot of profound wisdom. I feel so embarrassed and humiliated with medical things--- sickness etc . He  explains why in an easy way to understand. I need to really study it or get the book.Thanks so much, Sally for all your help ( and support)     Love  Ami

[sun blue]

It's funny how little things that have happened now suddenly are so telling once you have learned a bit about NPD.  Until only a couple of years ago, I always took a lot of time in picking out sentimental and meaningful greeting cards (always Hallmark, don't you know!) for my mom on her birthday, Mother's Day, Christmas, her anniversary, you name it.  But a couple of years ago, I just couldn't reconcile myself to purchase one of those cards with the meaningful prose about how Mom was "always there for you", was your "best friend" and helped you "become the person you are today".  So instead of one of these sentimental cards that I so wished was representative of my relationship with my mom but definitely was not, I selected a fairly generic card with a spiritual message.  Well, when my mom opened it, she had this look of disdain on her faith and said something like, "Oh, a religious card."  She was not used to that I guess.  My severely NPD sister, however, has always and forever given my mom those greeting cards that usually have Snoopy on it where the message inside is always like "I'm your favorite" or "from your favorite child".  You know there is meaning behind doing that when that's the only kind of card she ever gives.

Not surprisingly, my NPD mom makes a point of saying she doesn't believe in sending greeting cards because they're so expensive and a "waste of money".  So, even though my co-dependent dad who I know genuinely loves her, picks out a lovely and loving card on their anniversary every year, she never, ever reciprocates and barely acknowledges his effort.

Just as with gift giving, I can't ever remember my mom saying a sincere "thank you" unless it was in front of other people.  But you just better gush over the gifts she picks out for you (which invariably suit her tastes and not yours).  I called her on it once when she was selecting a turtleneck sweater for my sis-in-law who hates turtlenecks and never wears them.  She said, "well I like it, and it's my money so I'm going to buy what I want."  How NPD of you mother!

So I guess all the little things add up.   I can't help but feeling bad, however, at all the mother-daughter things I'll never get.  I have a beautiful little niece who is cherished beyond belief by her parents.  They take an interest in every aspect of her life.  She gets to do all those mom-daughter things I never did.  I guess that's part of the grieving.

[CB123]

We will have to agree to disagree,CB

Ami,

I'm sorry--I don't know what you are talking about here.  If you would feel more comfortable PMing me, I am fine with that.  I wouldnt have offended you for the world--and if you want to leave it at that, that's fine, too.

Much love
CB

[sally]

Hi Ami,

I am forever grateful to Certain Hope for posting that.  I think it really changed my life.    I also want to study it more.

Your welcome, sweetheart. 

Love,
sally

[sally]

Dear CB,

It’s so excellent that you went to the shower.  You felt your fear, but did it anyway: YAYE!!

I know what you mean about your NH cultivating your fear: a fear which did not previously exist until NH cultivated it.  My NM did this to me, I see that now.  I agree that it’s PTSD.

Your NH, like my NM, conditioned us, brainwashed us into this fear.  So now, we have to re-condition (de-program) ourselves out of this fear.  Going to the shower today is the way to de-program yourself.  And then, after you have done something in spite of the fear (like going to the shower or on a date), consciously validate yourself and acknowledge that you did something despite the fear and that it was OK; we didn’t crumble or die by doing something which we feared. 

Be your own best friend and hold your own hand and walk thru the fear. 

I felt I had to overcome my fear or else I’d wind up agoraphobic.

The other thing about our Ns conditioning us to be fearful is that this fear was PROJECTED on us by the Ns:  The Ns projected THEIR fear onto us and over the years, we absorbed their fear.  They were fearful people, not us, but they conditioned us and we absorbed it. This is the brainwashing and programming that we now need to un-do.

As far as religious beliefs, with all due respect, I feel that you were exposed to dogma that misrepresented God’s love.  For me, I went to a very heavy duty religious school, where the teachers conveyed to me that God is ALWAYS watching and if I screwed up, I’d wind up in hell, so I always had to be “good”.  Eventually, I found this exhausting and then realized that such an interpretation could not be true:  God does not play “gotcha” with us.  God is not watching us and waiting for us to screw up, so that he can nail us.  How could such a God love us?  So, I ditched the dogma and created my own interpretation based on God loving us, understanding us and forgiving our mistakes since we, God’s creations, are only human.  Only God is perfect and makes no mistakes.  We are not God, we are imperfect and make mistakes.

To get to the place I'm at now, where I can MOSTLY say that mistakes are okay and I will recover if I make one, is a huge deal.   Congratulants on this; this IS HUGE.

I feel as though I am getting closer to the place where I am not fearful.   Excellent.  You see, you’re almost there:  You already understand that the fear was conditioned into you.

I came to where I felt that I had no control over my life and eventually was afraid to have control.

I know what you’re saying about this “control”, but I have also read Zen oriented books which say that in reality, we do not have control over our lives and that accepting our lack of control can make us feel freer.

Guess I should distinguish between things we can and can’t control:  For example: if I was irresponsible and spent all my money on crack, I will be broke, homeless and sick, so I can control this by being responsible and not doing crack.  But, I could be living a responsible,  exemplary life and cross the street tomorrow, be hit by a bus and die.  So, some things we can control and some things we can’t and there’s a freedom in knowing that and distinguishing between the two.  It can relieve us of the burden of feeling the need to “be in control” of eveything all the time.  Instead, we can just “be”.

I'm working on being relaxed though, knowing that I will find out.  I am right where I am supposed to be and doing just what I'm supposed to be doing.  The answers will come.    Exactly.  When the student is ready, the teacher will come.  Live one day at a time and try to enjoy the moment.

Love,
Sally