How do you know for sure?

[bunny]

Mom has reported to me that she has gone to therapy.  This was based on my encouragement because I do not feel safe leaving my children alone with her (neither does my husband and my sister has expressed similar concerns to her).    According to her, she has seen 2 different therapists.  The first one told her she was fine and that I was the problem.  She actually told me that she stopped seeing this therapist because the therapist thought I was such an awful person.  The second one told her that she has a "disassociative way of looking at the world" and that with a couple of short sessions, she can be retrained.  Mom also made it a point to tell me that the only reason this therapist even met with her was because mom told her that her children won't let her be alone with her grandchildren.

Learning:

I would take your mother's reports with a truckload of salt. Her version of what happened with the therapists sounds ludicrous. (Except for the dissociative part, that seems accurate.) Your mother is extremely self-serving. Keep protecting your children from her.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Hi Learning,

I must second what Bunny says about protecting your kids.  When they are old enough to understand, you can explain the truth in simple terms why they never got to sleepover or whatever.  (I did this re my NSIL)  Your mother will only try to erode your relationship with your kids with her crazymaking.  Be consistent and credible with your kids and you will be okay.  Kids know who they can trust if you do that.  Best, Seeker

PS What I said to my kids was "soandso had a hard life (true) and that makes her act in way that are unacceptable to me."  I gave one or two examples and then they understood why we didn't see her anymore.

[Learning]

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[seeker]

Hi Learning,

All of this discussion is really intended to give you food for thought and not necessarily pinpoint any conclusions esp. about one's parents.  Because you are beginning your journey of awareness, please don't try to rush in to any "right" arrangement or what have you.  Your relationship with your mom continues to evolve over time and you have everyone's "permission" here to trust your instincts, not what anybody else says.

Once my therapist said jokingly that I had her "permission" to stop seeing my abusive SIL, it kind of jolted me awake!  Wow, I was asking for permission, what's up with that?!  My dilemma was needing to protect myself vs. still wanting to retain everyone's approval and opinion that I am a nice person.  SIL heaped loads of social abuse on me as punishment for cutting her off.  I worried that people would think I'm two-faced or a hypocrite.  I would walk down the street telling myself, I am a good person.  I know I am a good person.  It was hard, but time was on my side.  After the first wave of assaults, there was nothing left for her to do to me.  I simply didn't respond.  

I also know what you mean about mom being the sweet one.  When we've obliterated our dads as jerks, how can we turn on the one that is left?  I am struggling with this very issue.  My mom has her soldiers to do her fighting for her, but she often sets the agenda, pushing for a particular outcome.  It's hard to accept that moms can be responsible for at least some of our pain.  

Hope this helps to shed a little light, Seeker

[Anonymous]

Oh my gosh.  My immediate and actually ongoing emotional reaction is..."no not my mom, she has always been the sweet one.  She loves me I know she does.  I must have misquoted her, I must have lied about what really happened."  I was so upset about this that I went back to her emails to make sure that I wrote about it correctly.  And I must tell you (because I am so anal about details) that I did misquote her.  She actually said that the second therapist wanted to meet with her a few times to teach her not to get upset (I had said to retrain her).  Does that change your impression, bunny?

Learning, no, it doesn't change my impression that she has distorted what happened in her visits to therapists. For one thing, no therapist would have told her this. They don't offer to meet "a few times" to teach someone "not to get upset." That is simply not what a therapist does. So I think she is self-serving and probably not very honest with herself or with you. Don't feel bad about it, I know you're still in some denial about her. And I'm sure she has her good aspects. But not enough to entrust your children with her.

bunny

[Wildflower]

Hi Learning,

This is the part that hit me when you talked about your mom going to therapy.

The first one told her she was fine and that I was the problem. She actually told me that she stopped seeing this therapist because the therapist thought I was such an awful person.

Why would she say a thing like that to you?  I'd be really hurt if my mom said that to me.

Regarding N's and therapy, my dad said he stopped going to therapy because he realized he was wasting money entertaining his therapist, and that every therapist he'd ever had thought he was a genius and they just sat around asking him to share his knowledge.  He didn't need help.  He was a genius.

I know this is really rough, all this thinking about N's.  So don't worry about being needy here, okay?  I can see how you might feel that way, but you don't seem too needy from where I'm sitting.

Hang in there,
Wildflower

[sjkravill]

Hey Seeker and Wildflower and Portia...
In response to our discussion about feelings of unworthiness in therapy...  I said I did not have the courage to face this.  Well, I saw my therapist today, and after she explained something to me (for the zillionth time) I asked "Do you ever get tierd of having to tell me the same things visit after visit?"
She replied "No, because I know how easy it is to lose your experience."
So, without going into how much I worried about it, I sort of faced it... I didn't think I could... a tiny, tiny victory.  "baby steps!"

Learning,  
Thank you for sharing your stories about your relationships.  Actually, one of the hardest things for me is to vailidate my experience, or to use the lables.  It's hard for me to say to myself "this experience was abusive."  It's especially hard when the act of 'abuse' was seemingly subtle, and unassuming.... When N does a really convincing job of framing my reality, I trade his alleged intention for my experience... I think, he is wonderful and I am horrible for perceiving of this situation as abusive.  It can get to be a mind f*** at times.  My ability to deal with it comes and goes.  That's part of what keeps me.  The other part is a sincere love for him, and hope that we can both heal.

One day at a time...
Peace, sjkravill

[Learning]

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[Learning]

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[Portia]

Hiya Learning, it’s difficult to write this without sounding trite but – you will be past all this one day. It’s hard work and willingness to change I guess…I’m guessing because I don’t really know myself. This will pass for sure though.

And some people find being light-hearted or jokey stops them imploding – it doesn’t work for everyone. Not necessarily something to admire or frown upon – just a different approach?

Give yourself the okay to be sad…or any other emotion you feel. There’re no bad emotions…only emotions….and hey, you don’t have to think straight all the time either. Sometimes not thinking straight gives you clues to a way out/on/forward…best wishes..P

[sjkravill]

Hi Learning,

I am starting to understand the mechanics of the N disease, but I still can't really understand why they do this. I mean how can they? It is so conniving and cruel You inspire me by saying that you can deal with it some of the time. I don't think I'll ever be able to. Right now my only defense it to run.

I have the same experience of not understanding this.  Even after I read a book, read this board, or talk to my therapist, even after it is explained to me a zillion times, I still find myself asking "but why/how on earth???"  Have you read Dr. G's website on voicelessness and Narcissism?  It's the first site that comes up when I type "voicelessness" into my google search.  I have read it several times.  It makes sense.  Still, this behavior will never really "make sense."   I have had other converstaions on this board with the struggle to "get it" internally.  I understand it intellectually, but cannot internalize my understanding or come to any sort of acceptance.

I also wanted to say that "running" may be a very healthy response.  Your soul is telling you to get away! The same reaction when happens when one touches a hot pan.  One's body says "danger" and it pulls away.  One doesn't keep one's hand on the pan and try to talk it into cooling off! It may eventually cool off, but it will be too late for your hand!Ok, forgive my stupid analogy.  Maybe the only thing you need to 'get' is that this relationship is destructive. Your must take care of you before you can care for anyone else.

People are not pans, are they?  There are lots of factors to consider.  When I say sometimes I can deal with it, I mean some days I have hope for change.  Some days I am really good at drawing strict boundaries and sticking to them.  Some days I am not completely exhausted and destroyed, and I have some patience. Some days I don't beat myself up.
Self deception or realistically based optomism???? Don't know!
I have not really been able to assess the long-term harms and benefits.  If things don't change in the long run, it may be better if I had the courage to 'run.'  Perhaps this is really linked to the internal understanding of a situation.  I do know that either option (staying or leaving) can be very painful and hopeful at the same time...

Peace, sjkravill

[seeker]

Hi Learning,

We understand how overwhelming it can be.  I was excited, validated when I found this information.  Then angry and upset.  Then confused.  Did this really happen to me?  Why didn't I realize what was going on before, why now? etc etc.  I would immerse myself in information, then have to back off to process it all.  And maybe do some laundry...

In addition, as an ACON our feelings were denied time and again and so just feeling the feelings is a bit different and uncomfortable.  No one is around to tell you how they expect you to feel about this.  And if they were, they would tell you "it" doesn't exist or isn't a problem!  It's a very weird Catch-22.

So, just feel your feelings and don't push yourself for understanding too quickly.  Your feelings will tell you how far and how fast to go.  There is really no deadline.  Post if you want or just surf along.  We'll be here if you need us.  Take care, Seeker

[Learning]

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[Spirit]

 Actually, one of the hardest things for me is to vailidate my experience, or to use the lables.  It's hard for me to say to myself "this experience was abusive."  It's especially hard when the act of 'abuse' was seemingly subtle, and unassuming.... When N does a really convincing job of framing my reality, I trade his alleged intention for my experience... I think, he is wonderful and I am horrible for perceiving of this situation as abusive.  It can get to be a mind f*** at times.  My ability to deal with it comes and goes.  That's part of what keeps me.  The other part is a sincere love for him, and hope that we can both heal.

One day at a time...
Peace, sjkravill

Hi Sjkravil, I can very well relate to that. I in a way am desparately searching for that Label just to feel 'secure' in a way because I have problems trusting my own experiences. I have often asked my ex-therapist
as to who is the abuser? was it my dad or was it my mom ? what is it called ? is it emotional or is it neglect or is it more ? etc And she used to remind me again and again that only I would know cos she has never met my parents and to convince myself of my own experiences. I never could cos there are those strong voices implanted for their own selfish motives that contradicts and overwhelms my own experiences. Typical work of an N I think.

I even feel guilty of contradicting that 'trust of love' or bond or whatever that exists between me and the N. Imagine , I sometimes feel guilty of posting this or saying this to the therapist, cos sometimes I feel I am wrong and is simply 'unfaithful' or not affectionate enough towards my parents?

[Learning]

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