Author Topic: Inciting you to destroy yourself  (Read 10971 times)

Iphi

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #30 on: September 12, 2007, 02:34:40 PM »
I completely agree with the objective of living your best life and not waiting for all the answers. 

But you have to think about the context.  Sometimes you just need to learn something.  For example, for years I have been hobbled - downright stopped in my tracks - by crippling anxiety that has stopped me from going after the life I want to live.

So then I just learned that what I have experienced time and again, is PTSD.   This is a sea change for me.  It allows me to understand my inability to drive on, to go for it.  It helps me to understand why I have not been able to establish positive relationships with mentors or people I admire and like.

I tried to live my best life without doing the work.  I couldn't.  I tried for almost 2 decades.  Time and again - the same issue absolutely killed me.  And why?  I couldn't figure it out.  I felt faulty, weak, beyond frustrated.  It has completely impacted my professional life AND my personal life.  And I just keep hanging up on the same problems - the same huge fears.  And yet I couldn't figure out why it was so strong that it could stop me dead in my tracks.

So when I find out it is PTSD, suddenly the door opens and I can see myself in a more compassionate light.  Now I know why kicking it into 4-wheel drive and stomping on the accelerator leads me to spin my wheels again and again and become sicker and sicker with anxiety.  Now I see where it comes from.  It comes from living with my attackers.

And hey - maybe nobody has the answers and we must proceed anyway, but for me personally - I never had a community to put such a question to before now.  People on here have such experience and deep insight.  It isn't math.  There isn't The Answer out there.  But there's a lot of wisdom and insight.  And so I think it is worth talking about as much as any other topic.

Just my .02   :D
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

sally

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #31 on: September 12, 2007, 02:52:12 PM »
Lighter,

You suck at it; )

Are you serious or are you joking?

I can't tell because of the ; )

Even if it is a joke, based on what I have learned about Ns, is that jokes which have a hidden (or obvious) dig are Nish & destructive.

I don't want to get off the topic here, but I feel stunned.  Let's preserve out safety here.  No jokes at someone else's expense.  Disagreements are fine, but no digs.

Sally

« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 02:57:34 PM by sally »

Ami

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #32 on: September 12, 2007, 03:10:55 PM »
  Lighter,
  I don't respond to nastiness. I am here to heal and help other's heal in as gracious a manner as I can.
  That type of behavior , on your part , is no refection on me                                  Ami
« Last Edit: September 12, 2007, 03:20:55 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Ami

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #33 on: September 13, 2007, 09:27:59 AM »
I want to go back to the original topic of "Inciting you to destroy yourself". I am having parts of myself "click" back in like a puzzle.
  i was incited to destroy myself and I know why,now. I understand People of the Lie--in the heart.
  I only got it ,in the head.before.
 I see that I have always been perceptive ( we all are if we let ourselves). I could SEE  the truth in my family. I could not be ALLOWED  to even see it--let alone say it. Now, I know why I started getting more and more nearsighted. Also, I had recurrent dreams of "not being able to see".
  I can finally, finally see how people will do ANYTHING to keep their lies. It is a huge shock to me. It really, really is.
 I thought that there was something wrong with me. I thought that I was "too sensitive" or "too.... something". What I was -- was simply seeing the obvious truth . I had to have my whole self snuffed out. It was too dangerous to the family system.
  Now-- what about other life situations? People will destroy you if you get in the way of their denial. It is a "life or death" fight. I really truly am shocked.
Now, I see that I was always O.K. My great crime was being perceptive and simply seeing what was right in front of my eyes. For that terrible crime, I needed to "punish" myself. I did the terrible crime of seeing  the lies and dysfunction.
 So, the end of the story is that I CAN see and I can SAY what I see.  'What does it profit a man to gain the "whole world(people s approval) and lose his very soul(truth).
  Thank you to everyone who helped me to see this.                         Love  Ami



P.S.  I SEE now how people get us" back "in to our FOO situations. I see HOW the foo situations  replay. We have to be "blind". We have to suspend the truth that we are seeing.Otherwise, we would run from "bad" situations and people. We are made to be "blind" in our FOO. THAT is how they destroy us. Then we get in to a work or relationship  situation and we are still blind. The other person( if they are sick) 'wants" us to be blind so they can "replay" our FOO on us again.This is what Besee is saying, I think, about work.
  The antidote to the poison is the truth. We have to" un- blind" ourselves. Then  we have to "Say the truth."This is where setting boundaries and enforcement of boundaries comes in. Once we SEE it, We must then stand up for our truth with boundaries.
 .
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 09:36:35 AM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

lighter

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #34 on: September 13, 2007, 09:57:40 AM »
Once we SEE it, We must then stand up for our truth with boundaries.
 .




I think asking you to stop launching off my posts with assumptions......is speaking my truth and setting a boundary. 

At the very least, share your point but do it by asking for clarification.

I'm sure that if I followed you around and critiqued your posts with wrong assumptions..... it would result in a firestorm, lol. 



lighter

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #35 on: September 13, 2007, 10:01:19 AM »
Lighter,

You suck at it; )

Are you serious or are you joking?

I can't tell because of the ; )

Sally




That's a quote from PATCH ADAMS. 


It was very funny and I assure you, I meant it with the same humor Robin Williams delievered it, in the movie. 

Iphi

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #36 on: September 13, 2007, 10:03:56 AM »
I'm glad you shared your thoughts Ami.  I think you are so right.  Your ability to perceive things clearly was the ultimate threat.  
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Ami

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #37 on: September 13, 2007, 10:17:07 AM »
Dear Iphi,
 This is the road to get us back to good mental health.. That is what I have been searching for my whole time on the board.                                                                                                                                                   I used to have good mental health. I know what it feels like to love yourself. I know what it feels like to honor yourself.
  ONCE I accepted lies- all my "good mental health" went down the tubes. I started hating myself and thinking that I deserved to be "punished".
  My mind and body were simply telling me to "face the truth" and then  I would be whole again. However, I was too brainwashed to do it.I HAD to be brainwashed or my family would destroy me.
Now, I see that the "yellow brick road" back to wholeness is simply facing the truth. That is the road to loving and honoring ourselves. WHY are people  so afraid of the truth?B/C it is very,very very powerful.It is like a very powerful medicine. It can transform metal in to gold-- alchemy. It can transform broken people to "whole"people                                   Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Iphi

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #38 on: September 13, 2007, 10:48:41 AM »
But the truth means we have to change and that some things are going to have to be let go of.  It means change and some changes are really, really, really hard.

I remember when I decided to not see the truth about my dad.  I was 5 - there was a specific incident - very small, but that was when.  It wasn't really a choice - it was not a choice I was able to really make.  I couldn't tolerate the truth. ("Truth? You can't handle the truth!")  I was not able to let go of my dad at the age of 5.  Or for the next 30 years.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Ami

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #39 on: September 13, 2007, 11:10:57 AM »
Dear Iphi,
  I remember the exact moment that I jettisoned myself away. I threw myself overboard . I probably did it many times before in smaller ways. I started having phobias very,very young.i was afraid to go to sleep and many others. That shows me that I was trying not to look at my M.
  However, at 14, I had a moment when I simply gave myself up to their lies. I remember the moment clearly. After that I was "numb" all the time. Everything was grey. I went on with life ,school etc  but I was under a glass jar( a "bell jar" as Plath says).
  i was simply not there. This is what I mean by not 'being real".
   Now, I have the strength to face the lies and distortions.
Iphi-- if you have dizziness, stomach aches,sobbing etc--it is just part of denial leaving you. You have many many symptoms FROM BEING in denial( depression, lack of joy, self doubt , lack of trust in self etc). They have to "dissolve" as denial breaks.                                                                                                           I had someone to call who kept  encouraging me. The board really helped. I have a few friends who I PM . They kept encouraging me that it was all 'part" of coming out of denial. It was scary and I needed some people  to help me when I was really afraid.You are welcome to PM me,of you want.
  Iphi-- if we stay in denial, we will have a compromised life. There is no other choice(IMO) than to come out. I am feeling much,much better.                                    Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Iphi

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2007, 12:04:52 PM »

It seems to me that coming out of denial means that I have to give up my dad, give up on my dad, in every way.  It seems to me I have been trying to get him for years to stop making me choose between him or me (that is making me choose him even to tolerate mistreatment).  Having my dad in my life means going against myself and I did not create that situation.

It was a choice I was not able to make in the past, but sheesh - I'm 37.  I'm a parent.  I guess I have to choose me.

Yeah my stomach hurts. 
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Ami

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #41 on: September 13, 2007, 12:16:48 PM »
Dear Iphi,
  You said the answer simply and elegantly(IMO). It is all there in your post. The N person is a walking ,living "lie".. They personify the word"lie".When we interact with them, they DEMAND(overtly or covertly)that we share in the lie. They must lie in order to keep their masks on. It is life or death to them. We are a small ant who must be destroyed if their lies are threatened.
   They are wedded to their lies..This is what I learned after two months of dizziness, stomach aches, and yeast infections.
  We are having the "shock" of someone dying-- WHILE they are alive.We are seeing that they are not a person in the sense that they share human emotions with us. They "look" like a person ,but they are hollow.
  So, we have to accept that someone died while they are still alive. That has been what I have seen after my ordeal.
   Iphi-- I never fainted although I thought that I would. I had a paper bag to blow in to when I got dizzy. My stomach is better. In fact,I gained weight and am a size 8(which I wanted).I feel much better now.
   All these symptoms are just our bodies way of coming out of denial                Love  Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

tayana

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #42 on: September 13, 2007, 12:24:08 PM »
Quote
Why is it that I feel like it is about my undesirable personhood, instead of their bad behavior?  Is it because I have believed them?

I'm posting late in this thread, just because it doesn't seem like I have time to keep up with all of the posts and everything else going on in my life right now.  :)  But I clipped the above quote because I have spent months talking about it with my T, with my friends, with my brother, and anyone else who is willing to listen.  I actually went to an assertive communication seminar this morning, and one of the things the awesome speaker mentioned was that to earn respect and control of our situations, we have to first respect and like ourselves.  He said the first thing we need to do in the morning is look in the mirror and say, "I am good."  It was a very profound thing for me, because my T has been trying to get me to look at things more postively for months.

It seems to me that all of our N experiences have a common theme: we lose ourselves in the miasma of the N relationship.  For those of us with N parents, I don't really think we were ever allowed to have a sense of self.  And even if we had that sense of self, we were never allowed to express it.  My Nmom was the type that squashed any display of self expression:

"You aren't wearing that are you?  You look like a (fill in blank)."  I have heard bum, frumpy, boy, tramp, boho, etc.  My Nmom even told me the other day that my son looked like a boho because he had on a baggy t-shirt and shorts with a pair of crocs.

"You don't want to go into that field.  You'll never succeed."

"Why do you want to do that?  That's a man's job."  I currently work in a male dominated field, so she considers it "men's work."

"You need to do something with your hair."  or "I don't like your hair that way, you should grow it out."

Self expression and love of self was bad with my nmom.  I wasn't allowed to like the person I could be, because there was always something wrong with that person.  I was selfish.  I was cold.  I had no passion.  I didn't care about anyone but myself.  My grades weren't good enough, even though I was at the top of my class, but I wasn't the best.  I wasn't ambitious enough.  I didn't have goals.  Etc.  These are things I grew up hearing, and after hearing them so much and for so long, it's very hard to break away from that mold without some sort of motivation.  N's turn the focus of their bad behavior on us, and present us with very clear terms why we are causing it.  I took my son on vacation and my Nmom told me she would be dead when I got back.  Not because we were going on vacation, but because she perceived it as me taking my son away from her.  Therefore it was my fault, and I spent the first three hours of a ten hour drive, crying.

N's have this manipulative behavior that makes us doubt ourselves, and if we grew up with an N parent, we've heard that we aren't worth anything all of our lives.  The only way to break out of that is to learn to like ourselves as ourselves, for who we are, imperfections and all.  I won't say I'm there yet, and some days I really don't succeed, but I"m getting better.  I read, I'm not sure which book, that we can't give love until we love ourselves.  I think this is very true.  I feel more connected with my child now that I'm away from the N nonsense, even if we are in separate rooms, doing different things.  I feel good when we have a day with no blow ups or misunderstandings, and there are more of those now than not.  I had gotten to a place before I got away where I didn't want to spend time with anyone, not even my son, because I just wanted time for me.  Somehow "me" was getting lost, and everyone was demanding things from me.  I finally had to stop and say, "Enough.  I matter too."

I do  not like to have contact with my family, my parents in particular.  IN the future, I'd like to decrease contact to as little as possible.  Contact with them brings those old feelings of worthlessness and defeatism back, and I am starting to really like the new me.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we are tricked into believing their bad behavior is our fault, and the way to escape that is to realize it is a trick, to look at them and realize we aren't what the N is telling us.  We aren't bad, selfish, cold, unpassionate, etc.  We have to learn to have a sense of self and respect for our persons.
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You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you
really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing you think you cannot
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tayana

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #43 on: September 13, 2007, 12:26:39 PM »
(((((hugs Iphi))))))

My mom was making me make that choice too, and I finally had to choose me.  I was dying inside, and I feel so much more alive now, even though things are hard.  We can't be responsible for other people's feelings, but we can empathize with them.
http://tayana.blogspot.com

You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you
really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing you think you cannot
do.
-Elanor Roosevelt

Ami

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Re: Inciting you to destroy yourself
« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2007, 12:50:29 PM »
Tayana
THAT WAS BRILLIANT------WOW
I am so happy and inspired to hear you talking about loving and respecting yourself. That is "where it's at".You are right. They de-nuded us of ourselves like you would de-nude a forest of trees. They left us barren-- self less.
  You are getting your self back. You sound SO good. I am so happy--truly,truly happy to hear your strength.     Love   Ami
« Last Edit: September 13, 2007, 01:43:44 PM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung