Author Topic: healing  (Read 58884 times)

Anonymous

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healing
« Reply #210 on: May 13, 2004, 05:57:00 PM »
Hi Wildflower,

How ya' doin'? Thought I'd share something I realised yesterday when I reading on that P/A site. My mother also exhibited a lot of those traits. I started ticking them of on my fingers. Then I thought about the jumper she knitted for that kid, that she buried in the garden for his father to find. Yes, besides psycho, still P/A hey. And other things like cleaning toilets with people's toothbrushes. YYUUUCK. Yep, P/A as well. So my list of questions I posted to me about my kids, is also to me.

Hope it didn't bother you? Just give me the middle finger sign if it did, and add an "Here, Analyse This." hahahahahahahah

And my ex. Whoooah. I could always guarantee a "No" response if I ever asked him directly to do anything. I had to be very cagey and even learn to be very manipulative to get him to do or finish anything. How tiring that was. He manages quite well though with no responsibilities and no demands.

I remember once when a new shopping centre opened quite a way from home. First day, there were going to be great specials. I didn't drive back then, and the kids and I really wanted to go, so he took us. But only if we agreed to one of his dumb conditions. And so we agreed to. hahaha  

He was going to stay in the car and time us. We had a certain amount of time or he was leaving without us. We went over the time and when we came out of the shops, with shopping bags and pram and he was gone. hahahahah What a jerk. We had to foot-slog it all the way home, wingey children in tow. I should have walked the other way and kept going then. "Run Forrest, Run!!" comes to mind.

Anyway, in sorting these things out in my mind I think I have a few of these P/A traits myself, so I'm going to do more surfing on the topic. Mine comes in the form of not dealing with issues on the spot, as I've mentioned. And letting things fester and stew and seep. YUK. So I'm aware of that now, which is good. It's gotta start somewhere, hey.

((((HIGS))))

CG

Wildflower

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healing
« Reply #211 on: May 13, 2004, 06:58:59 PM »
Hi CG :D,

I've been thinking about the P/A stuff, and I even wrote some stuff about mom after you asked.  Then I realized that I couldn't write about individual aspects because one story encompassed multiple traits.  And then...

I ran out of anger.  :D  Really.  I met with my therapist this week and took my anger in with me - kinda so she could look at it.  It was a good session.  I feel like I finally earned some stars or something, too, because she finally came out and used the NPD diagnosis on my mom.  She's never said that before - partly because I think she doesn't want to cloud my perceptions and partly because, well, she's never worked with my mom and she only has my testimony.  By the way, she laughed when I told her about the P/A list suggestion :D because she knows I'm gonna dive into it. :D  "Where will these travels take you next?" she smiled affectionately.

So, I'm coming back to that list.  But in the meantime, I'm really glad you've been thinking about it, too.  Finding how it fits your mom and stuff.  Can I ask you something?  Does it make her less scary?  I mean, yeah, she's a psychopath, but does it make it easier to handle if you can identify some act as a P/A thing?

And yeah, your ex leaving you like that at the shopping center?  Why, cos he had so many more important things to do?  Like saving the planet? :roll:

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I had to be very cagey and even learn to be very manipulative to get him to do or finish anything. How tiring that was.


Geez, me too.  :roll: I had this whole 'system' worked out where I would walk this high wire trying to get anything - ANYTHING - from my mom.  Right down to timing my questions...spacing them out...never asking more than twice....making her think it was her idea.  Just thinking of asking her something now gives me a head-ache - and usually I just feel hopeless and don't bother.  Which, you know, was one more reason why her suicide crap was so freakin stressful.  If I ask her to take care of herself, will she do the opposite?  If I ask her not to hurt herself three times, will she take a bunch of sleeping pills just cos I 'nagged' her?  If I ask the wrong question or say the wrong thing - will she get set in her ways and ... get worse because of me???  If I do nothing...and she commits suicide...

You get the idea? :shock: BARF.

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Mine comes in the form of not dealing with issues on the spot, as I've mentioned. And letting things fester and stew and seep.


I had two close friends (one an ex-boyfriend) tell me that they were amazed that the time they spent with me was so peaceful.  I never argued or fought.  But then I had major blow-outs with each of them - because I'd been racking up all these things I was too afraid to talk about.  Afraid that if I disagreed they'd leave me or stop liking me.  I admitted something like that to my ex-boyfriend during our biggest fight.  Something like, I was afraid to tell you because I thought you'd get upset.  He came right back at me, "and you think THIS is BETTER???"  Boy was he right.  Now every time I think of not saying something because I'm afraid people won't like me - something that I'm upset about - I remember that and try to find a way to address it immediately.  It's taken a lot of practice to do it every time - and to do it in a way that doesn't hurt people, but rather, respects their right to know what's going on.  But it's not easy.

Take this afternoon for example.  My work has suffered big time over the past two months because of all the personal shit I've been sorting through.  I finally went to my boss to tell him that I was sorry about my performance lately and that I hope things will be back to normal now.  He was sympathetic and before I had a chance to explain, he actually said, "tired of being a super human and just being human?"  Sigh.  Yep.  That one's been on my list a while, too :wink:.  He told me to just let him know if I need to back off a little.  And he hadn't asked me about it because he didn't want to pry - he can see that I like to keep my privacy.

Good interaction, all things considered, and I've made a mental note to myself to work on a better early warning system at work (and to forgive myself and find a better way if I can't handle work AND all this crap).  But I was upset after talking to him, too.

You know why I don't talk about my personal stuff with people I don't know?  Because I'm EMBARRASSED that my parents are f*cked up.  You know why?  Because they're my PARENTS!!!  How can I NOT be f*cked up?!?!?  I might as well wear a big sign saying "Both my parents are INSANE - so don't bother with me 'cos with TWO parents like that, I gotta be INSANE too"  Know what I mean? Arrrrghhhh :evil:

But I've worked and worked and worked to pull my life together and not be messed up like them.  Now at least I believe in myself enough to know that I'm not crazy or a bad person - just saddled with some unhealthy habits.  But I still hate trying to explain this to strangers - because they can't know how much work I've done.  My closest friends don't even know how much work I've done.  And you know what?  Sometimes that makes me mad.  You know why?  Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person.  Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal.  And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.

I RESENT MY PARENTS FOR GIVING ME THIS CRAP.  

I'M TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T MY FAULT.

Sorry...what did I say about being out of anger?  I think I just found a new well.... :roll:  Eh...or maybe I'm just having a dark moment and it'll pass. :roll:

And here I was just gonna write a quick "no worries I'll be back" post.  :lol:  And I will.  Probably more tonight.  I like the P/A idea.   :D And it's really comforting knowing you understand what it's like to be there - and be working on this.  :D

(((((((((BIG HIGS))))))))))))
Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Wildflower

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healing
« Reply #212 on: May 13, 2004, 09:08:46 PM »
Hi CG,

Here's the stuff I put together the other night in response to the P/A list.  Consider it a first installment? :wink:

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FEAR OF DEPENDENCY  - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.


I’m not sure about this one, to be honest, but this is what it reminds me of.  When I started driving, I was overwhelmed with how free I was.  I used to drive people home – hours out of my way – just to be driving.  Just to be out.  I started hanging out more because I was no longer dependent on my mom to take me out.  She was always too tired, too busy, too annoyed to take me out to meet a friend.  I gave up after a while.  Started telling my friends I didn’t want to go out, that I’d rather stay home.  They thought I didn’t like them.  Big messy downward spiral – can you see it?

Anyway, when I started driving, I started hanging out more.  I started hanging out with this woman who had left home when she was 16.  We went to a coffee shop and did our homework together.  Calculus.  How bad-ass is that :lol:?  But she was cool.  She had punk dyed hair. She told me a hilarious story about a bad dye job once where she came out of the salon okay, but over the next couple of days…clump…clump…  Most of her hair came out.  She had to get a spiky hair cut.  She missed her long hair.  I admired how she’d left home, stuck up for herself.  She’s the one I rode around with listening to classic rock, wondering if I’d heard it all before or was losing my mind.

But I’d be out with her, studying.  And feeling so, so guilty.  I’d start whining about how worried mom would be, and she’d smack me back to my senses and remind me that we were STUDYING.  So I’d stay out late with her, and when I got home, mom would be sniffling on the couch: Are you having fun out there?  I just miss you so much.  You used to be so little.  What happened to that girl who used to be so little?

All I could think was, WHAT?!?  You miss me NOW?  Where do you get off?  You’re crying?  Over ME?  No.  I’m not buying it.

But of course I’d buckle.  How bad am I to think these horrible things?  Of course she misses me.  I’m going out more now.  Things are changing.  At least she’s not yelling at me to stay home and be home by 10, which is what I expected.  I had no curfew.  Geez. Of course I didn’t have a curfew.  I could take care of myself, right?  Just as long as I didn’t interfere.

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OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you.  But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you.  Maybe he won't comply at all.  He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.

FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.

FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds.  To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.

MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not  fulfilling promises.  As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.

PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.

CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time.  By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship.  And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.

AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences.  When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.


I can think of a million examples of these traits.  It was just life.  As I said above, I have to be very careful with my mom because if I ask the question in the wrong way, or if I ask her twice, or if I ask her at the wrong time, she’ll close up and refuse whatever I’m asking – not openly of course – and it’ll never happen.  So yeah, as you said, I had to learn to be manipulative with her.

A month before my junior year in college, my dad dropped a bomb on me.  He wasn’t going to pay for my college tuition anymore.  He’d spent his entire inheritance (on a second home, on a third floor addition to that home, on renovations of the entire house, on himself in a million other ways) – part of which was to be reserved for my education, according to my grandfather before he died.  

Mom and I scrambled.  To her credit, she used up her savings to keep me in college.  Not that I didn’t hear about it over and over again after that.  How my dad had ruined her life by taking all her savings.  Savings she’d worked all her life to save up.  How she'd lost all her security.  She fell into a severe depression and lost her job (the real beginning of the current spiral downward, I think).  Did it make me feel like I’d stolen her money?  Did I feel her depression was my fault?  Absolutely.

But…my school was expensive.  Mom’s savings hardly made a dent.  I needed to be on financial aid.  But…in order to apply for financial aid, the school needed my mom’s financial statements.  Tax forms, etc.  She put it off.  Week after week.  Promises that she’d send it in.  Tomorrow.  In a week.  Day after day went by.  No forms from Mom.  

I signed up in the student work program, but because of the late notice before starting the year, there weren’t many jobs left on campus, so the financial aid office took care of me and gave me a job there.  I was surrounded by the issue of financial aid.  Every day.  No escape.  I filed other family’s statements away.  Other mothers’ pleas to help their children.  Other mothers’ paperwork.  Other families struggling.  Nothing from my mom.  

That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies.  Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for (HA!  We.  As if.  :roll: The peace I’d fought for between us).  Trying to find new and creative ways of asking my mom to send the damn paperwork without letting on that I was asking her to send the damn paperwork. :roll:  And then I started dating an emotionally unavailable guy.  CRACK.  SPLIT.  CRASH.

That was fall term.  When I went home that winter break, that’s when mom told me I didn’t contribute a #@$% thing to the household.  Irony?

----------

Okay…that’s all the poison I can stand for now. :lol:

((((((((BIG HIGS)))))))))
Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Portia

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healing
« Reply #213 on: May 14, 2004, 05:10:33 AM »
aurghhhhh...! Wrah! That's how your parents make me feel!
How d'ya feel about money now WF? Are you super-independent with money? And your work....your boss obviously values you a lot, implying you always give more and maybe it's ok to give the norm? Don't give too much please.

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Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person. Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal. And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.

Where are those average people then? Just to be normal eh? Scratch anybody's surface and 99.9% of the (western) human race are loons of some sort. (Half my neighbours are. Just discovered one went to top himself a coupla years ago (he didn't) but he's a manic/dep. I had no idea and I see him all the time. 'bout time I started looking at other people a little more closely I think.)

You don't have to pay for your parents' f*ck ups. You don't have to earn anything. You ARE part of normal life. It really really really IS everyone else. You know the thought - 'is it me or is everyone else crazy today?' - hey, I keep reading you and well, I reckon it's everyone else. I'm serious. Damn it, WF, you're above average for god's sake and it makes me mad to think you're giving your employer more than required. Work isn't personal - it doesn't define you (I guess unless you're an artist). Sorry, but I made the mistake of letting work partly define me and I'm sooooo anti-it now that it's a bit of a crusade! P furry ear stroke

Anonymous

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healing
« Reply #214 on: May 14, 2004, 05:15:48 PM »
Hi Wildflower,  :D
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I'm really glad you've been thinking about it, too.  Finding how it fits your mom and stuff.  Can I ask you something?  Does it make her less scary?  I mean, yeah, she's a psychopath, but does it make it easier to handle if you can identify some act as a P/A thing?

Yes, and no. Personally, physically I"m not scared of her anymore. Because she's not around, I suppose. But I know what she's capable of, so I think if I was to ever have her around again I would be. I've told a lot of stories here about her. But no the worst ones. It's inappropriate and probably illegal. Those ones, I should/could only ever go to the police with. But I have no evidence or proof, they were such along time ago. Just my own 'suspicions and knowing'.

My husband has, at times, wanted me to do this, but I haven't. He kind of agrees with me though, and I'm convinced it would only appear like 'sour-grapes'. Let me just say this, I really hope she gets a pang of conscience before she dies and leaves a confession note of sorts. And not just die, taking the secrets of her foul deeds to be buried with her. I can't really say any more than that.

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And yeah, your ex leaving you like that at the shopping center?  Why, cos he had so many more important things to do?  Like saving the planet? :roll:
Yes, I remember geting home and he was in his usual spot on the lounge, watching TV.

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Geez, me too.  :roll: I had this whole 'system' worked out where I would walk this high wire trying to get anything - ANYTHING - from my mom.  Right down to timing my questions...spacing them out...never asking more than twice....making her think it was her idea.  

I completely understand. Talk about making the simplest, most basic
issues of childhood, like communicating our needs, into a battle-field.

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???  If I do nothing...and she commits suicide...
This has to be the ultimate weapon of mass mainipulation doesn't it? The ultimate form of manipulation and control. This one makes sure we're always keeping one eye focussed on them and don't stray too far, or apply too much pressure on them, or too many expectaions on them. WTF

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"and you think THIS is BETTER???"  

I know, but it's not our intention to explode/implode is it? We're just trying to keep it in, usually to keep the peace. Very juvenile, isn't it? It doesn't work. The sooner we get past that one the better.  :D

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"Both my parents are INSANE - so don't bother with me 'cos with TWO parents like that, I gotta be INSANE too"  Know what I mean? Arrrrghhhh :evil:

But I've worked and worked and worked to pull my life together and not be messed up like them.  Now at least I believe in myself enough to know that I'm not crazy or a bad person - just saddled with some unhealthy habits.  But I still hate trying to explain this to strangers - because they can't know how much work I've done.  My closest friends don't even know how much work I've done.  And you know what?  Sometimes that makes me mad.  You know why?  Because I've done a good job with some hard, crappy, impossibly difficult stuff - and all I have to show for it is being mildly neurotic in the eyes of the average person.  Sometimes I just wish I weren't struggling so hard just to be normal.  And I wish I could say to people who don't understand, my parents are crazy but that doesn't mean you can't trust me because I've earned my way back into normal life.

I RESENT MY PARENTS FOR GIVING ME THIS CRAP.  

I'M TIRED OF PAYING FOR SOMETHING THAT ISN'T MY FAULT.


Good on your boss for being understanding, but can I say, I'm with Portia, don't push yourself. Especially not to compensate. That's often what we do when one part of our mind/life seems so messy an screwed up and impossible to handle. We try to 'prove' it wrong by being totally cool, together and a success in some other way/s.

My husband does this too. I guess I probably do too. But I'm much more aware of it in him. He's in a lot of ways, socially retarded. Hope he doesn't read this!!  :wink:  And he's a bit of a mis-firer in personal relationships. But he feels and is convinced that he well and truly disproves this 'myth' about himself because he's number one at his work.

It doesn't disprove anything in my eyes. They are completely seperate. But he needs the validation it gives him, and for years that validation has 'enabled' him to be a good an proper, fair bastard at home. I don't let him off the hook any more.

This is me when I'm in lecture mode to home at him, (note all the 'talking at' and 'telling him' tone. Very N of me hahahah)
"If you could rectify the disparity in your priorities, and you put the time and effort into being as good a friend, father, husband, etc as do at being and maintaining being number one at work , you'd be the happiest man on earth". He's sort of starting to get it.

I know you're doing the exact opposite to my husband, you've been working on it for years, and recently to the point that you felt that your work was suffering and spoke to your boss about it. But his observation isn't to be ignored. "Tired of being super-human" is an interesting comment. Is he being ambiguous? Is he saying something much more there?
Is he hinting at perfectionism?
Reluctance to delegate?
Lack of trust in others abilities & competencies?
Fear of failure?
Emotional Fatigue?
Ignore this if yoou want to, they are just questions coming from my own personal history and experience. How that comment would have caused knee-jerk reacions in me.

I had a team in one place I worked and I was a very incompetent delegator, and a control-freak. I was paranoid when I had to leave the place even for lunch. Then I had time off, got sick ((hahahah of course, who wouldn't behaving like that) and when I got back to work, man did I notice how skillful that team was without me. How irrelevant my role was really. I was like a big hole in the sand at the waters edge, and the wave comes in and pooouf, it's dissappeared. Some might say, "Oh well that was a result of the good training you gave them."

Yes, yes, I know, but I wasn't allowing them the space to work autonomously previously. How I must have frustrated them. But I learned a good lesson there which I've translated into a powerful parenting skill. Teach them and then let them practice. Even if it means making a mess. hahah or burning a hole in it.

Anyway, I'm off to your next post now, :D
(((HIGS)))
CG

Anonymous

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healing
« Reply #215 on: May 14, 2004, 06:25:57 PM »
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FEAR OF DEPENDENCY  - Unsure of his autonomy & afraid of being alone, he fights his dependency needs - usually by trying to control you.

So I’d stay out late with her, and when I got home, mom would be sniffling on the couch: Are you having fun out there?  I just miss you so much.  You used to be so little.  What happened to that girl who used to be so little?
Guilt Guilt Guilt! Instead of being free to grow up, and socialise unencumbered, here you were having to lug around mom's needs and dependency. If you if ignore them, you're a selfish little bitch. It's a no-win situation. Why wasn't she enjoying the free-time herself, maybe finishing one of her half-finished hobbies? Answer, cause she wasn't in control. While you were wasting your time looking for the phone book to get the phone number for the pizza joint she was happily in control of you, and you were taking care of something she should have got off her arse and done (dependency?).
Subtle control, but still control.
Subtle dependency, but still dependency.

[
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quote]OBSTRUCTIONISM - Just tell a p/a man what you want, no matter how small, and he may promise to get it for you.  But he won't say when, and he"ll do it deliberately slowly just to frustrate you.  Maybe he won't comply at all.  He blocks any real progress he sees to your getting your way.

FOSTERING CHAOS - The p/a man prefers to leave the puzzle incomplete, the job undone.

FEELING VICTIMIZED - The p/a man protests that others unfairly accuse him rather than owning up to his own misdeeds.  To remain above reporach, he sets himself up as the apparently hapless, innocent victim of your excessive demands and tirades.

MAKING EXCUSES & LYING - The p/a man reaches as far as he can to fabricate excuses for not  fulfilling promises.  As a way of withholding information, affirmation or love - to have power over you - the p/a man may choose to make up a story rather than give you a straight answer.

PROCRASTINATION - The p/a man has an odd sense of time - he believes that deadlines don't exist for him.

CHRONIC LATENESS & FORGETFULNESS - One of the most infuriating & inconsiderate of all p/a traits is his inability to arrive on time.  By keeping you waiting, he sets the ground rules of the relationship.  And his selective forgetting - used only when he wants to avoid an obligation.

AMBIGUITY - He is master of mixed messages and sitting on fences.  When he tells you something, you may still walk away wondering if he actually said yes or no.
[/quote]

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Ican think of a million examples of these traits.  It was just life.  
Me too, both with mother and ex. :x

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Mom and I scrambled.  To her credit, she used up her savings to keep me in college.  Not that I didn’t hear about it over and over again after that.  How my dad had ruined her life by taking all her savings.  Savings she’d worked all her life to save up.  How she'd lost all her security.  She fell into a severe depression and lost her job (the real beginning of the current spiral downward, I think).  Did it make me feel like I’d stolen her money?  Did I feel her depression was my fault?  Absolutely.

Now, this is the juicy bit. This is where P/A gets us if we never deal with it. We end up always as the 'victim' in some-one else's melodrama. We end up as supporting cast in someone else's life, instead of being "leading lady' in our own.  :D  :D  :D  :D Which is the real reason we are here. Doesn't everybody want/need a supporting cast?? No they don't.

She lost her security and her savings that she'd worked all her life for. That is tragic, but she was responsible. Somewhere along the line she gave over control, played 'dependent ' once too often and was taken advantage of. This wasn't your fault. And yes, to her credit she spent the last on your education. But remember, that was her agreed responsibility as your parent, and your father's. Not yours.  If college was what they'd planned and promised and wanted for you, then they were under an obligation. And you ended up having to work and chip in. They were responsible for any distractions you may had along the lines of feelings of fear and embarrasment and anxiety throughout that whole time.

When your mind should have been free to focus on study and career and new relationships, you had all this other shit going on in 'centre stage'. What difference do you think it would have made if they had of met their responsibilities squarely in the face, say dad had of sold the 3rd floor he built, to help you out? hahahah If they had grown-up and made it possible for you go off to college mentally unimpeded by their crap for the first time?

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Other mothers’ pleas to help their children.  Other mothers’ paperwork.  Other families struggling.  Nothing from my mom.  
Her own guilt and shame and denying reality. Probably was buying lottery tickets every week, and living in fanasy world that a fairy god-mother was gonna bail you out.

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That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies.  Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for
I can't say here what I wish you had of said to him,  :x , but you sure let him off the hook 'big-time". And of course I would probably have done the same. But shit, it's exactly at these junctures we need to learn to turn the heat on them, not turn it down.  :x  :x  The sooner we learn to distinguish this, the better. Once again, start becoming 'leading-lady' in our life, not 'supporting role' in some-one elses.
Here he was, skewering you and letting you down big-time, both as father and supporter, probably for the 1000th time, and he turns it around, till in the end, "YOU'RE" offering "him" unconditional love and support.
 :shock:  :shock:  How f*cking twisted is that.  :shock:  :shock:

SPEW, WHERE'S THE BUCKET.

The squeeky wheel gets the grease!!! You shoulda made the bastard squirm and not let him off the hook TILL HE COUGHED UP SOME DOUGH. Kept the heat up, gone over there,  :D  with forms for a personal loan for him to fill out AND SIGN.

Skewered his SELFISH ass to the bloody wall. Maybe it wouldn't have achieved anything, Maybe it would. But you'd have a least made him have to face himself. Hope he was enjoying the extra floor on his house, What was it, a pool rooom? Somewhere to relax after a hard day of doing his daughter in. Somewhere to entertain his friends while his daughter was almost on the verge of a nervous breakdown. F*CK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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That was fall term.  When I went home that winter break, that’s when mom told me I didn’t contribute a #@$% thing to the household.  Irony?
Fall term, fall term. yeah, that's for damn sure. I wouldn't contribute a sheet of toilet paper to some people now, without getting a decent thankyou of appreciation FIRST.

Thanks for the feedback and stories Wildflower. I've probably still got a long way to go myself, but just in this post of yours alone I see so much of me in all of these things you've wriiten. Different characters, and situations, but same dynamics. Thankyou, and I think  :idea: the fog is clearing.  :D I hope it's the same for you.

((((HIGS from a happy free-floating HIGAPIGASAURURUS))))

And long may youn Vent!!!!

CG
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Wildflower

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« Reply #216 on: May 15, 2004, 01:40:42 AM »
Okay another long one, but before I start ... feeling a little…narcissistic here, what with all this talk of myself.   :roll: :oops:  :oops:  :oops: So I wanted to say that I used to keep journals several years ago.  I used to write profusely – trying to figure stuff out.  But I got stuck all the time.  Big circles.  Writing the same pages over and over and over.  And who was I writing to?  I didn’t even know who I was.  I stopped writing in journals because it wasn’t getting me anywhere and I was just thinking about myself all the time.  But talking with you guys?  Thinking about all of us being in this together?  Thinking about others instead of my own stupid problems all the time?  Reading your responses and thinking about how things might appear to you?  So unbelievably helpful.  :D :D :D And yes, the fog is clearing.  Big time. :D  Thank you guys.  :D :D And with that said...no need at all to parse through/read/respond to this post unless you want to.  I'm just talking out loud...  :D

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That’s when I had my first major panic attack – trying to be strong and keep up my studies. Trying to comfort my dad by telling him I understood about the money and this wouldn’t affect our relationship that we’d fought hard for

I can't say here what I wish you had of said to him,  , but you sure let him off the hook 'big-time". And of course I would probably have done the same. But shit, it's exactly at these junctures we need to learn to turn the heat on them, not turn it down.   The sooner we learn to distinguish this, the better.


You’re so right about how I should have skewered Dad when that was happening, CG.  I guess I was too confused and used to making excuses for my parents, huh?  BARF.  SPEW.  PSEW.  Maybe I should PSEW him for emotional damage.  :lol:

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I know you're doing the exact opposite to my husband, you've been working on it for years, and recently to the point that you felt that your work was suffering and spoke to your boss about it. But his observation isn't to be ignored. "Tired of being super-human" is an interesting comment. Is he being ambiguous? Is he saying something much more there?
Is he hinting at perfectionism?
Reluctance to delegate?
Lack of trust in others abilities & competencies?
Fear of failure?
Emotional Fatigue?
Ignore this if yoou want to, they are just questions coming from my own personal history and experience. How that comment would have caused knee-jerk reacions in me.


That bit about being super human?  Honest? I’m not entirely sure what my boss means, because I haven’t done any work for the past two months.  Okay, maybe a tenth of the work I normally do. :wink:  Seriously.  I’ve delegated everything except this one piece that we don’t even need.  And I’m in charge of bringing everyone’s work together, but that’s it.  So what have I been doing?  Managing ha ha ha.  I’ve been the perfect manager in the sense that everyone else does the work while I sit on my ass (wiping the tears off my face - okay, not managerial :roll: ).  So, I can’t imagine that my boss is telling me I’m STILL working too hard.  Really.  That would be nuts.   :?

It’s true that I was a perfectionist, and I used to give too much of myself to my job.  But I’ve been much more relaxed over the past couple of years.  For one thing, I’ve been going back to school in hopes of changing careers – because my heart’s never really been in my current one.  Ever since I started going back to school last summer, I’ve been more than happy to delegate. :D  To let this go.  If I ever put my heart in my career it was to gain financial stability.  To never have to worry about money the way I have in the past.  To never let it control me and my happiness the way it has in the past (Yes, Portia, I’m 100% independent financially – I depend on no one).  It was pure survival.  It was purely drive to get into a position where I could count on stable income.  It was never for status. In fact, I’d have been happy staying where I am – but I’ve gotten lots of pressure to promote up.  I don't even want to make more money because I'm afraid it'll go to my head and I’ll end up just as irresponsible as my dad.  To work less would put me in a precarious position like Mom’s.

When my boss first asked me to delegate, I simply didn’t know how – and yes, part of it was because I didn’t trust others to do the work (can you imagine why? :roll:).  But it was also because I simply didn’t know how to break the work down, to reorganize it, shift priorities, identify the balls in the air in such a way that more people could be doing more work – more efficiently.  But I’m getting better, I think thanks to my boss's help and advice.

And the project I've been working on for two years?  The client is a raging N hahahahahah.  I’m not kidding.  She’s hilariously insane – hilarious because I rarely have to deal with her in person.  You should see the people who do, though.  I’m sure you can imagine how crazy they feel. :roll:  She can’t make decisions about the project because she has to figure out whether she should have bar soap or liquid soap in the bathroom – or what kinds of snacks and soft drinks she’ll allow (does it make sense to have caffeine-free Diet Coke AND Diet Coke?).   :roll: She doesn’t want this project to end because then she won't have all these people catering to her wacky needs.  Ever seen Groundhog Day with Bill Murray?  That is this project.  I’m not kidding.  So the team has LOADS of time to make mistakes.   :lol:  :lol:

So I let people learn - and make mistakes in their own time – because I see this as a learning project.  Like school.  I ask questions now instead of giving answers.  I think about how to break a problem down so that junior members of the team can be more effective.  I have a pretty good idea of the strengths of the members on the team.  Some of them are just as good as I am if not better (I write software, so it’s fairly easy to be objective about skill levels on the team – even when it comes to different styles).  For whatever reason, though, I’ve been singled out to be the leader.

So…here I am … giving all my work away and asking questions and learning how to enable others to do their work.  I feel kinda useless in some ways, but super human?  No way.  I can see how he could have said that six months ago, but not now.

So, I think he may have been saying, in a weird way, welcome to the human world where the rest of us live.  With our sloppy work and messy lives and imperfections.  Hmm.

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Where are those average people then? Just to be normal eh? Scratch anybody's surface and 99.9% of the (western) human race are loons of some sort. (Half my neighbours are. Just discovered one went to top himself a coupla years ago (he didn't) but he's a manic/dep. I had no idea and I see him all the time. 'bout time I started looking at other people a little more closely I think.)

You don't have to pay for your parents' f*ck ups. You don't have to earn anything. You ARE part of normal life.


Funny, all this ties into the bit about me having a tantrum about being embarrassed about my parents.  I’ve felt that away about my family since I was around ten but I've never voiced it before.  I remember when it started.  I remember envying my friend who lived a couple doors down – whose dad was a Boy Scout leader.  Whose mom took care of me more than once when my mom was sleeping and I’d gotten in trouble or hurt.  They had lots of toys and regular meals.  So...I was embarrassed that my family wasn't like this.  I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't hide all the problems when I was at home (weight, failing grades, troubled relationships) so I hid.  But yeah, I see it now.  I have been compensating ever since I left home.  I’ve been trying to hide the fact that I come from a messed up family.  I’ve been trying to learn to be ultra normal so no one will ever be able to tell by knowing me that I come from a messed up family.

But I DO come from a messed up family.  And I survived.  That’s something to be proud of isn’t it?  To look my past in the face and say “You stay there in the past, okay?  We’re done here.”  I’ve started telling my closest friend (my ex, the one who showed me how unproductive and hurtful it was to stay all bottled up) about my family.  I’d kept it from him until now – afraid he would leave me.  Well, he’s still here.  He still cares about me.  And he had no idea my family was so messed up.  Okay, he knew about my dad, but he’s having trouble absorbing all my stories about mom.  He keeps saying he had no idea (it wasn't obvious :shock: ?).

That’s what I wanted, wasn’t it?  So how could my friends know what I’ve done if I’m all busy hiding and compensating?  If I’m sitting on the sidelines of life struggling to be perfect so I can go out and play with the others.  But maybe there comes a point where we’re just scared to go out there and take life by the horns – and there’s nothing really holding us back anymore.  After that last hook has been removed.

Watching the Nick Drake documentary last Friday, I realized that some people don’t survive.  For whatever reason, they don’t survive.  No matter how others try to reach out to them.  That may be my mom (though I doubt it now – she was just having a tantrum), but it’s not me.  I’ve always been a survivor.  Time to strut my stuff and be that leading lady in my life.  Thanks for that image, CG. :D :D :D :D

(((((((BIG HIGS AND ((CG Portia)) TONS OF LOVE))))))))
Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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« Reply #217 on: May 15, 2004, 02:54:17 AM »
Hi Wildflower,

as you move into and embrace that 'leading lady' role with all the accolades are a very normal part of it, just remember All those 'normal' people out there are so often just like us. If you met me in a work related endeavour you'd probably think I was from a very normal, well-adjusted, happy, positive and stable environment. And you know something, I'd never let on otherwise. So you just never can tell. You're just as together as the rest of them, probably more in a lot of ways, because of what you've come through. You've built some muscles along the way, that just might see you over the top.  :D
So glad and happy that you opened up to your friend. Bet he feels privileged. :D

And once again, long may you vent, 'til it's all out!!

(((HIGS)))
CG


CG

Dawning

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« Reply #218 on: May 15, 2004, 02:59:25 AM »
**Hi Wildflower.  Guess CG and P are out and about today/this evening (time difference and all that.)  

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But I DO come from a messed up family. And I survived. That’s something to be proud of isn’t it?


Yup Yup, YUP.  And I am glad that your ex is listening to you.  

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That may be my mom (though I doubt it now – she was just having a tantrum), but it’s not me. I’ve always been a survivor. Time to strut my stuff and be that leading lady in my life.


 :D  Survive and Thrive.

**To CG: your explanation of their intentions to simply *win* was so spot-on.  After letting it sink in, it felt like another step up the ladder to awareness.  Closer to the light.  Are you at a coffee shop now.   :?:  :wink:   Hey, I am going to go tomorrow and have a moca.
"No one's life is worth more than any other...no sister is less than any brother...."

Wildflower

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« Reply #219 on: May 15, 2004, 03:46:06 AM »
Hi CG :D

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If you met me in a work related endeavour you'd probably think I was from a very normal, well-adjusted, happy, positive and stable environment. And you know something, I'd never let on otherwise. So you just never can tell.


Are you kidding me?  I'd know your humor in a heart-beat :D :D  No, no.  I get your point.  And ... never letting on.  I need to think about that.  I'm reading Don't Lets Go to the Dogs Tonight right now, and it's the memoirs of a woman who grew up in Africa.  It seems as though she accepts her life - good and bad, real bad.  I don't want to go around advertising ... but I'm not sure I want to ... reject who I've been in the past.  Not anymore.  Can I accept who I am and never let on at the same time?  Ponder ponder splash ponder.

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Here he was, skewering you and letting you down big-time, both as father and supporter, probably for the 1000th time, and he turns it around, till in the end, "YOU'RE" offering "him" unconditional love and support.


Oh, and wow on the unconditional love reversal.  I so didn't see that :shock:.

Hi Dawning :D
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:D Survive and Thrive.


Nice.  I've got a new motto.  Thanks :D.

(((HIGS)))
Wildflower
If you want to sing out, sing out
And if you want to be free, be free
'Cause there's a million ways to be, you know that there are
-- Cat Stevens, from the movie Harold and Maude

Anonymous

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« Reply #220 on: May 15, 2004, 06:36:29 AM »
Hi Wildflower,
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[Tonight right now, and it's the memoirs of a woman who grew up in Africa.  It seems as though she accepts her life - good and bad, real bad.  I don't want to go around advertising ... but I'm not sure I want to ... reject who I've been in the past.  Not anymore.  Can I accept who I am and never let on at the same time?  Ponder ponder splash ponder.


This was specifically in reference to workplace situations, I've found it necessary. Especially being female.  :D In personal relationships it's different, I think there's such a thing as appropriate disclosure. I wasn't thinking this means rejecting who I've been in my past. It's just that for me personally, I've often found some people don't understand, or will use certain information for gain and advantage. Or even misunderstand completely and think I need advice or sympathy that I may not appreciate. Tricky boundary things come up.

A counsellor advised me a while ago, "There is appropriate and inappropriate sharing of historical personal information. And also, you need to learn to consciously assess who is entitled and who isn't. Only you can decide, but in most cases less is better than more while your working on your low self-esteem." I found that advice invaluable, partly because of changed outcomes subsequently and partly I felt it put me even more in the control seat of my life.  :D  Does that make sense?

I guess to, she was taking into account the extent of the horrid details. My history is pretty messy and hard to comprehend even for me sometimes :shock:. So I've come to understand how much harder for outsiders and new folk who come along into my life. Quite frankly, I've found some people and relationships I have are much better off and happier without being burdened with it. While some closer relationships have grown and even flourished as a result of disclosure. It's an individual case-by-case judgment call only I can make.    

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Oh, and wow on the unconditional love reversal.  I so didn't see that :shock:.
Dare I ask? I'm wondering how that makes you feel?

(((HIGS & more HIGS)))

CG