The Transcendent Child.... book by Lillian Rubin

[lighter]

Oh Changing.... do you not have contact with your brother at this point?

I can't imagine leaving my baby sister behind, no word, no contact no anything while she was alone..... sort'a...... in foster care. 

((((Changing))))

I also feel so sad for your brother..... going off on his own and braving that Ivy League school by himself.  How scary.... how badly he must have suffered, feeling like the odd man out.  I'm sure he was covered up with his own problems but..... it's a cold adrenaline that hits my stomach picturing you in foster care, with no word from him.  That you couldn't even care for each other actually hurts my stomach.  You bc you were too young and it sounds like caring for you father.... him bc of problems we can only guess at and maybe that it was just too painful to come back?

I could sit and question you like a drill sarge but...... I want you to stay focused on school and telling us details about the attorney and on what you''ve managed to salvage with your brother, if anything. 

(((Changing)))  You are a transcendent child...... I know you are.

 Ami.... I'm going to post more about the stories as I read them.... so much info attached, didn't want to post too much.  How much detail would you like in the stories?   

What did you think of information listed so far?

[Ami]

I think that the puzzle to getting whole has many pieces. The transcendent child offers valuable pieces. I still think that the most important piece is to connect the gut( feelings) with the will. I think that trusting one's primal emotions and perceptions is first. That is of course,if they GOT disconnected.Not everyone is disconnected.                               Ami
   

[Ami]

((((((((((((((((((Changing)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
 You,of course,did not "plan " to be an inspiration or probably even want to go through so much that you could be an inspiration to others. However,I ,often, think about you Changing.  You inspire me to go forward .        Love   Ami

[Certain Hope]

Reading just the last few posts, this came to mind...
from the Gospel of Matthew, chapter 10:

16 "Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

17 "But beware of men, for they will hand you over to the courts and scourge you in their synagogues;
18 and you will even be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles.

19 "But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say. 20 "For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

21 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

 28 "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father.
30 "But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 "So do not fear; you are more valuable than many sparrows.

32 "Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33 "But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

34 "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

35 "For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
36 and a man's enemies will be the members of his household.

 37 "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
38 "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
39 "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
40 "He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

The peace Jesus brought to earth and made possible at the cross is the peace of reconciliation between God and man... not the sort of peace this world dreams of. That is my belief.

Hugs, y'all
Carolyn

[sally]

Lighter,

Thanks for posting about this book.  I am thinking of buying it, so I googled the title and found the following review.  I believe the reviewer is saying that although these people may have transcended, they may still be  affected by the abuse.  Food for thought.

The Transcendent Child: Tales of Triumph Over the Past by Lillian Rubin, Basic Books, $23.00, 1996, pp. 229


Reviewed by John A. Speyrer


The Transcendent Child is about children, who by succeeding in life, were able to transcend or overcome their deprived and traumatic childhoods. The author, who herself was a transcendent child, has always wondered why she was able to overcome severe obstacles, but her brother could not. She asks why some, who fall down seven times are able to get up eight times? I don't believe Rubin's book answers the questions she poses, but it does present eight interesting stories of people who have overcome unbelievable handicaps to eventually lead successful lives.
Lillian Rubin, a sociologist and psychotherapist, believes that one's genetic potential is a factor in determining one's ability to adjust to life's vicissitudes. She believes that an early life of abuse and neglect will not necessarily be reflected in one's adult life.

The author writes that transcendent children share certain characteristics. They possess determination which gets them through childhood relatively unscathed and this determination helps them succeed in later life. She says developmental psychologists view human potential as not necessarily subject to such simplistic determining factors as early trauma. Thus, she believes that a child who is abused does not have to become a child abuser. And even those who lived a seemingly perfect childhood can turn into unhappy and neurotic adults.

Another characteristic of these children is their ability to leave their families early, both physically and emotionally. This took them out of their pathological family environment early. In each of the case studies, the children had special interests or abilities. This might be the real reason why they came to the attention of the author. In any case, a strong decision not to be like their parents is another characteristic of these children. These "transcendents" also seem to be able to attract mentors later in life when needed. These helpers and advisors are able to assist the person at critical times since they remain open enough to receive the guidance and advice of others.

Often the children did not feel sorry for themselves and did not act out the life script of victimhood. Rubin believes that self-help groups sometimes fosters a feeling of victimhood by its participants. In any event, she believes that we have a choice of whether or not to fall in the trap of victimhood.


* * *
I don't know how happy these former transcendent children are as adults, but they seemingly are professionally and financially successful. Alice Miller's concept of a "gifted child" is similar to the author's "transcendent child" since they both have solid defense systems which keep their neuroses at bay. An issue not discussed by the author, but one which those of us interested in the regressive therapies know is important is -- what kind of birth and infancy did these exceptional children have? Second line traumas are easier to work around and resolve than issues of birth and early infancy. In Imprints: The Lifelong Effects of the Birth Experience, Dr. Arthur Janov has written that ". . . a decent birth is at least half the job of child rearing and may be equal to years of positive experiences with parents. . . whereas an improper birth leaves one vulnerable to even the most benign events." So a closer examination of these seemingly well-adjusted persons might reveal psychopathology. And a look into earlier phases of their lives might solve this puzzle of the relative absence of neurosis.

So, after all, did these children escape the effects of horrendous environments including beatings, sexual abuse, and abandonment? I do not believe that they really escaped. In many of the stories, psychopathology in the adults is described. And being successful is not a standard for being well adjusted and happy. Equating mental health with good functioning and prosperity is an error. The invulnerables were really not so since one's neurosis and act-outs may be to succeed to matter what. Most of these transcendent children have had exemplary careers. In their cases successful careers equated to extraordinary natural abilities, strong successful defenses and perhaps great determination to show that they had not deserved the abuse they received.

If these children are judged solely by their behavior it would seem that they have transcended their traumas. But their repressed experiences are still present even though, as a child and as a professionally successful adult, they present a facade of being well adjusted by acting with social grace and charm. However, a defense does not eliminate repressed feelings.

[sunblue]

Hmmmm.....In reading the posts about the Transcendent Child, it called to mind some painful thoughts and also some questions.  The part I found disturbing was how once again an author is disparaging those who are on the receiving end of this kind of unique abuse by admonishing them for thinking of themselves as "victims" or "wounded" and for engaging in support groups.  Is there any kind of abuse in more need for the support of others than those who grew up in an N household or who has been involved in an N relationship where they did not have a voice?  In my view, it is definitely not about wearing a scarlet V for victiim on your chest, but rather finally, finally, FINALLY getting validation that you were abused or hurt by someone, since you will never receive it from those who harmed you in the first place.  To me, this is just so critical.  And I resent it when people throw out the victim accusations.  It's like they don't want you to discuss it or explain the abuse and what it has done to you, but rather to just "move on", transcend the whole experience.  But those who grew up voiceless need to "voice" those experiences more than anyone.  Why?  Because we have so much to say.  Because our feelings, wants, desires and needs were never acknowledged.  To me, heaping an accusation of wallowing in victimhood is just another way to dismiss us, diminish us and hurt us.

But I do think the author brings up some interesting points about "transcending" your abuse which, of course, every therapist aims to do.  In the beginning of one of LIghter's posts, the idea was discussed that a brother might be a pessimist and a sister might be an eternal optimist.  Is this just genes or a reflection of the type of childhood experiences each had?  And, if you were stuck with the "pessimist" genes, what can you do to transcend your experiences? 

The author said that those who were most isolated or ignored in such families would go on to find others that would "adopt" them, so to speak.  But we know that is not always the case.  So what happens to those who are not adoptable for whatever reason?  How do they transcend their experiences?

I've read a lot on the subject and it seems a pervasive attitude seems to be that focusing on others is the answer to transcending these types of negative experiences.  Believe me, I firmly buy into the idea that abuse or not, it is a good thing for people to give to others and try to make a difference in others' peoples lives.  But having done some of this, I also know that it does not help to transcend your own pain.  Yes, it's great to help others but in the end, it really doesn't help fill up that Grand Canyon of a hole left by an N family.  At least I don't think so.  Perhaps time helps.  I also thinks validation and acknowledgement helps, even if it doesn't come from anyone in your family or from those who committed the abuse.  Validation means it actually "matters" that someone hurt you, that you didn't deserve the abuse and that you have value.  In my opinion, as someone on the receiving end of Ns, there is not sufficient validation.

I think someone who has experienced an N relationship faces a different kind of abuse then let's say, a child of an alcoholic or drug addict.  They are all horrible, terrible abuses of course.  But it is obvious to most people if a person is an alcoholic or drug addict.  It doesn't take a lifetime to understand that alcohol or drugs contributed to that parent's behavior.  Not so with an N.  NPD affects the very self-esteem of the person affected (children, spouses, siblings).  It affects everything you do.  It is painful.  It is sad.  Pretending that it's not by merely moving on, getting over it, won't change that.  That is not to say you should wallow in it  But before you can move forward, you have to receive validation, understanding, ackowledgement and peace. 

[changing]

Judeo-Christian Peace
(Job 22:21 KJV) Acquaint now thyself with him, and be at peace: thereby good shall come unto thee.

(Psalms 119:165 KJV) Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

(Psalms 122:6 KJV) Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.
(Psalms 122:7 KJV) Peace be within thy walls, and prosperity within thy palaces.

(Isaiah 26:3 KJV) Thou wilt keep him in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed on thee: because he trusteth in thee.
(Isaiah 26:4 KJV) Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:

(Matthew 5:9 KJV) Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.

(John 14:27 KJV) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

(Romans 5:1 KJV) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

(Romans 14:19 KJV) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

Lighter, all of us should "follow after the things that make for peace"- I hope that anyone who does not want to deal peaceably with you, whatever their religion or creed, has the good grace to leave you alone and begone to the infernal regions!!!

My B did not even come to our F's funeral though the evil StepMonster may have had something to do with that, and he doesn't answer my communications. I still love him in very much the same way that I did as a child, a free, boundless and unselfconscious kind of love, and feel great respect and affection towards him as well. I think that he fears and is repelled by my emotional knowledge and understanding of him- what I love and value in him are the intangibles, not his vaunted intelligence and such. I keep track through reading about him on the internet- his writings, goings on, famous friends, his institute,lectures he gives, etc., even arguments he is involved in on sites. He looks well in his photos. I would do whatever I could for him, and can see so much of him in the Transcendent Child information. I only wish that our family was not so fractured and cast to the winds, almost totally decimated now, and he did not seem to have to bury his feelings about our NM so deeply after she took off, or have to run from our raging NF. He is a very cerebral man but there is a truly sweet side that has been deeply wounded and remains touchy, making him appear brittle and chilly.

Pensively,

Changing

[Ami]

Dear Changing,
  As I read your post,a thought hit me that I wanted to share.I think that your B has so blocked out any sense of a "past" . He is the new man" without a past" b/c the past was too painful for him to take in to the present.
  I think that this must have been his coping mechanism. He is all the "new"  things that he is now. He is none of the things before college where he was able to redefine himself.
  Maybe ,he feels like he is built  on 'glass" and one little mention of the past will send him shattering. I bet that is why he has not included you in his life.
   I think that he is a very fragile person who is keeping himself intact by blocking out everything that has to do with his child hood.
  Just a thought. Compost what does not fit.Changing, I just wish I could give you a big hug and kiss and a nice hot cup of tea( with blueberry muffins)I send my love in to cyberspace,dear.    Love   Ami

[Leah]

Indeed, this is a fascinating thread, and personally insightful and affirming, and CB's writing, is so akin to my own life story, childhood and womenhood (to include over 20 years of marriage).

My childhood resiliency, being able to cope, with no role model or mentor, I too looked to and chose mentors from novels, the public library being my haven and sanctuary, oh, the sheer pleasure and joy of selecting new books to read was immeasureable.

School did not provide a support network, however, I managed to select an inner role model and mentor.

Silence has been my life, and, assuredly, silence is not golden, nor is it emotionally healthy.  

Whilst being there for everyone, resilent, most certainly, it did not equate to happiness.

This thread is awesome.

Leah xx

[Leah]

Lighter,

Thanks for posting about this book.  I am thinking of buying it, so I googled the title and found the following review.  I believe the reviewer is saying that although these people may have transcended, they may still be  affected by the abuse.  Food for thought.

The Transcendent Child: Tales of Triumph Over the Past by Lillian Rubin, Basic Books, $23.00, 1996, pp. 229


Reviewed by John A. Speyrer


The Transcendent Child is about children, who by succeeding in life, were able to transcend or overcome their deprived and traumatic childhoods. The author, who herself was a transcendent child, has always wondered why she was able to overcome severe obstacles, but her brother could not. She asks why some, who fall down seven times are able to get up eight times? I don't believe Rubin's book answers the questions she poses, but it does present eight interesting stories of people who have overcome unbelievable handicaps to eventually lead successful lives.
Lillian Rubin, a sociologist and psychotherapist, believes that one's genetic potential is a factor in determining one's ability to adjust to life's vicissitudes. She believes that an early life of abuse and neglect will not necessarily be reflected in one's adult life.

The author writes that transcendent children share certain characteristics. They possess determination which gets them through childhood relatively unscathed and this determination helps them succeed in later life. She says developmental psychologists view human potential as not necessarily subject to such simplistic determining factors as early trauma. Thus, she believes that a child who is abused does not have to become a child abuser. And even those who lived a seemingly perfect childhood can turn into unhappy and neurotic adults.

Another characteristic of these children is their ability to leave their families early, both physically and emotionally. This took them out of their pathological family environment early. In each of the case studies, the children had special interests or abilities. This might be the real reason why they came to the attention of the author. In any case, a strong decision not to be like their parents is another characteristic of these children. These "transcendents" also seem to be able to attract mentors later in life when needed. These helpers and advisors are able to assist the person at critical times since they remain open enough to receive the guidance and advice of others.

Often the children did not feel sorry for themselves and did not act out the life script of victimhood. Rubin believes that self-help groups sometimes fosters a feeling of victimhood by its participants. In any event, she believes that we have a choice of whether or not to fall in the trap of victimhood.


* * *
I don't know how happy these former transcendent children are as adults, but they seemingly are professionally and financially successful. Alice Miller's concept of a "gifted child" is similar to the author's "transcendent child" since they both have solid defense systems which keep their neuroses at bay. An issue not discussed by the author, but one which those of us interested in the regressive therapies know is important is -- what kind of birth and infancy did these exceptional children have? Second line traumas are easier to work around and resolve than issues of birth and early infancy. In Imprints: The Lifelong Effects of the Birth Experience, Dr. Arthur Janov has written that ". . . a decent birth is at least half the job of child rearing and may be equal to years of positive experiences with parents. . . whereas an improper birth leaves one vulnerable to even the most benign events." So a closer examination of these seemingly well-adjusted persons might reveal psychopathology. And a look into earlier phases of their lives might solve this puzzle of the relative absence of neurosis.

So, after all, did these children escape the effects of horrendous environments including beatings, sexual abuse, and abandonment? I do not believe that they really escaped. In many of the stories, psychopathology in the adults is described. And being successful is not a standard for being well adjusted and happy. Equating mental health with good functioning and prosperity is an error. The invulnerables were really not so since one's neurosis and act-outs may be to succeed to matter what. Most of these transcendent children have had exemplary careers. In their cases successful careers equated to extraordinary natural abilities, strong successful defenses and perhaps great determination to show that they had not deserved the abuse they received.

If these children are judged solely by their behavior it would seem that they have transcended their traumas. But their repressed experiences are still present even though, as a child and as a professionally successful adult, they present a facade of being well adjusted by acting with social grace and charm. However, a defense does not eliminate repressed feelings.

Regarding my sister, and myself, I was resilient and was supportive to my younger siblings and even later on managed to study and build a career.

Whereas, she did not, and went from one drama to the next.

This made her inwardly resentful of me, though just how much resentment she held for me was not evident until she did something cruel and atrocious against me a few years ago.

I have wondered much recently as to whether Is it genetic? 

My sister, sadly, is a mirror of my mother.

Whereas, I can match myself to a paternal aunt.

This thread is amazing and so very timely.

Thank you all from my heart.

Leah xx

[Ami]

I wanted to say some things to Sun Blue. In  my first  reading of the thread ,I had the same reaction that Sun had. I think that she has a very valid point.
  The way that I look at it   is that MANY answers can be right. Not just ONE answer is the WAY.. The Transcendent child  concept has good ideas but they are not THE DEFITNITIVE ideas.
  I could see how they could  seem too "simplistic". In a way, they are. However, they are only one small piece  in a large puzzle. The puzzle is "How are we going to become whole? How are we going to reclaim what was stolen from us?These are the questions that we have to keep asking UNTIL we find our answers.
  Some concepts ,like the Transcendent Child ,seem to  shame a person( in a subtle way) in to giving up their OWN  search for wholeness. The Transcendent child concepts can be taken as a "get over it" type of thing.
  I know ,now, from my hard fight to find wholeness, that there are many more people and concepts out there to drag you down rather than lift you up. I don't know why. I have had several loving people who lifted me up and held me ,when I could not hold myself , as I searched for my 'insides". I had others  try  to push me down with some version of "Get over it."
   The truly 'transcendent" person just keeps going. God will provide people just for you. He will provide love and special touches just for you.
   It is supernatural.
   So, I understand how the concept of the Transcendent child can be taken in both "good" and "bad" ways. For me, I am able to" take what I like and leave the rest" b/c I trust my gut to lead me where( and with whom)I need to be.
  Sun, the best resource you( and all of us) have is our gut.It is precious. Try to build it up as you would a muscle. It will provide many riches for you                Love    Ami

[Leah]

Did you guys know that there are principles embedded in Jewish life that call upon Jews to make peace; it's a responsibility they bear.  If you're a Jew, you can't turn down the opportunity for peace.  Is there any imperative in Christianity, such as this?


Here's a quote from Jewish scripture about peace.....

'He who establishes peace between man and his fellow, between husband and wife, between two cities, two nations, two families or two governments, no harm should come to him.'

This person, who has overcome and grown beyond a tormented childhood, has a will to be that peacemaker.  Not only political peace but an internal one.... a release from the anger that's dominated his life so much, up to this point. 

Though the anger has been a huge part of his transcendence, goading  him every time he stumbled or failed, it also plays a part in his marginality, even when it's no longer necessary. 

So, now he's trying to relax into his life and experience his joy...... and ready himself for inner peace he's just beginning to know. 

Cool.

Dear dear Lighter,

Many times I have been scorned and ridiculed for having forgiven my perpetrators, and remaining in contact with my ex-husband.

"Blessed is the peacemaker" is not something that I ever thought of consciously, yet, looking back, that has apparently been my behaviour, as has been testified of me.

Yet, I was never angry, which annoyed some!  Hurt, very hurt, desolated yes, but not angry.

So much to share, and not sure how to share or say it.

But my life, now, in October 2007 has meaning, makes sense.  It is though I have been given understanding and peace. 

As to G-d's chosen people, which is my heart, as a true bible believing follower of Christ, in Acts 10:36 it says ...

"This is the message of G-d sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of shalom through Yeshua the Messiah, who is Lord of all"

Shalom means 'Peace, Wholeness, Completeness'

Apostle Paul said in Romans 1:16 ...

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile."


"Yeshua, a light to lighten the Gentiles and the glory of God's people Israel"


Yeshua, is Jesus' name in Hebrew, means 'Salvation, Deliverence, Victory.'


Matthew 1:21 "You are to give him the name Yeshua because he will save his people from their sins."



Love to all, you lovely people.

Leah xx



Matthew 5:9 - Jesus said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." 


Sermon on the Mount - The Beatitudes

[sunblue]

This particular thread of conversation prompted thoughts of resiliency and hope for me.  Resiliency of course is always thought of as a positive trait and it is.  But what causes one person to be resilient and another not?  Is it the amount of pain or loss or negative experiences a person has?  Is it the amount of love or encouragement they received growing up?  Is it the balance between good and bad experiences a person has?  Or is it an unfailing faith that no matter how much bad stuff comes your way, things will turn out all right?

I'd really, really love to be more resilient but I'm not.  In my mind, it's because I've been kicked a lot and each time it gets harder and harder to pick myself up.  In my current situation (unemployed) no one works harder than me to find a job.  Yet, over and over, I am rejected.  I'm sure similar situations are evident for others here, whether personal or professional.  So when life has shown you that no matter what you do, no matter how many times you try, things always turn out the same, how do you stay resilient?  How do you stay hopeful?

I'd really love to hear from people on this topic and perhaps who have shared my kind of experience.  I just honestly don't know how to do it.  When you've been disappointed by literally everyone in your life and all efforts for digging yourself out are thwarted, how do you remain resilient and hopeful?

[Ami]

Dear Sun,
  I think that it is important that you don't use the "concept"of the resilient child to beat  yourself over the head with. I think that I hear you doing that( subtly).
  There are so many variables in each persons situation that it is impossible to really compare.
  The main point is your situation and your feelings.
  I think that you have to do just what you were doing before you felt guilty that you were not  going fast enough(it seemed).
  I think you need to keep facing the truth of your family and your situation.
   As you face them( and it is really hard),you will begin a process of healing.
   I think that it is counterproductive for you to compare yourself to some "mythical' person who is doing"better ' than you are.
  I agree that N is a worse abuse in a way that alcoholism (for example) b/c N 'looks good" so you doubt and deny your reality. Then ,you get very lost to yourself.
   I think that you were on the right track when you came on the board(IMO)                 Love   Ami

[sally]

Dear Sun Blue,

I wanted to tell you that I agree 100% with your post about victimhood undercutting validation.  I think for people like you (& most of us on this board), we are not simply whining, rather we are looking for solutions and trying to comprehend, to process our experiences and define who we are & where we're going.

Reallyme discussed this victimhood issue on a recent post and I pretty much said what you said here.

I also wanted to tell you that I think your posts are very intelligent, you are very perceptive and profound; I'm particularly thinking of your "How long this Journey" thread.

I did like what Lillian Rubin said about falling down 7 times & getting up 8 times and in view of your employment problem, you are doing that, so you are resilient.  Heck, I think everyone on this board is resilient, I mean we're here, trying to make sense of our lives, right?

So, Sunblue, I say keep on keepin on with what you're doing.  As far as work, can you brain storm and see if there are other "roads" that you haven't previously considered?  I also think that it's probably really hard to find a job while your mind is also focused on unravelling your FOO.  I think that it takes ENOURMOUS ENERGY to deal with FOO issues.

So you have a double burden of looking for a job and fathoming your FOO, your identity and I wanted to acknowledge that.  Just try to be gentle with yourself and give yourself love.

Glad you're here, Sunblue.

Love,
sally