Need Some Help

[Ami]

I am starting a new thread b/c I really could use some help. It has never failed that someone(often many people) can see the obvious answer when I can't.
 My question and problem relates to all the new threads that I started,.
 I am really second guessing myself with Maria.My gut is telling me that it was not simply about "wanting to have me to talk to". This is what my gut is telling me.
  At the beginning of our relationship,I was very weak. It was before I found the board and I was going down. I was very thin and really did not see any real "way out" of my thinking,which I knew was killing me.I did not know about N's.I just hurt so badly and no one understood-- anywhere. I had given up on ever getting better.I had tried everything and nothing helped.
  I met Maria through another friend. She really 'rescued" me. She helped me to decorate my house ,which was a pig sty. She helped me to start eating . We prayed together and God helped me to start healing. I was always the 'weak" one and she was the 'strong" one.
 I was always giving her money b/c she needed it and I was very grateful for how she helped me.
Also, I felt like I "should: give her money b/c it was helping s/one who brought me to God etc. It was kind of giving back.I, even felt a "leading" from God to help her out. I was fine with it.I felt like I was supposed to watch out for her(give her some money) the same way that she helped me
  Then, as I started  getting stronger( from the board),i started not being so dependent on her. I was not the  "sick" person anymore and was not as "needy".
   THEN, she started  getting really "needy". I tried to be a good friend and listen .Then,it was hours of one depressing thing after another( for  months). I tried to distance myself a little. I thought that we would talk for an hour,have coffee and then I would go exercise. She seemed to resent when I wanted to do something like this.(go exercise, get on the computer etc)
  I started feeling like I had an oppression over me. . I really did not know what to do. I asked my S(older) what his opinion was. He said,"Just talk for an hour and then say you have to go. Say that you can't be her therapist.Say that you have too many problems of your own."
  So, I tried to do that for a few weeks. She was getting more and more hurt. I told her, "I am just going through my own things and am needing some space"
  Then,it seemed like she got more persistent( however I don't trust my perceptions .that is why I am so confused)and so last week she was really crying and seemed to want to stay for 2 hours and just say how she makes good money ,but the H wastes   it and she hardly has any.
 I said that she has to "rein in the H."
  Anyway ,after this day,I was talking to my S. He said to tell her that I am not strong enough to be her "therapist" or sole support(emotionally). I called her up and told her. She was very upset. She told me later that she was "sobbing"
  Last Sat. was when I finally decided to be TOTALLY  honest b/c I felt so oppressed and decided to trust myself. So, I told her all the things(in so many words) that I said here.
  She tried to "blame" me and say that she  just wanted s/one to talk to and if I was "weak" to give money, that was my problem. That was true. THAT is why it is so confusing.Do you understand?
  So, the OTHER wrinkle is another person. This person had a horrible, horrible life.I tried to be an emotional support( Don't laugh) . I tried to help the person see that she needed to find her OWN core and not look outside for it. She sent me an e mail that had me "ejecting off my seat."( levitating)   It was vicious. WHAT  upset me about the email was NOT how she "insulted' me .What upset me was how screwy her thinking was ,but to her it was NORMAL.Her thinking was what scared me. I had tried to be an unselfish help and she was seeing me in such a distorted way.It "scared" me. This got me really,really doubting my own ability to trust my own reason b/c she was so screwy and did not see it.Maybe I am really screwy and NOT SEEING IT.THAT is my dilemma and my question.
 So, I guess that I am asking."What do you think happened with Maria?'I have tried to be as honest as I can in recounting the story..I just feel so confused b/c it is so hard to trust my own eyes. That is my problem. I lost trust in my ability to see--BLEH . I feel so,so sad and overwhelmed .                                 
 So, I am open to thoughts and suggestions. I know that I am in the forest and I am seeing the trees so much that I am lost .Thanks  for any help                      Love   Ami

[Ami]

I wanted to add something.Today,I came out of a HUGE denial about my M. I really,really SAW that she was like a 3 year old. I faced it in my heart. So, that is adding to my  feeling overwhelmed. It is also making me see that I really have to trust myself b/c I am alone( a mother who is a 3 year old would qualify as alone---BLEH).

[sally]

Hi Honey,

A quick response cuz I have to run.

I basically agree w/ your son.

Realize that when you bevgan your relationship w/ Maria, you were a different person.  You have changed and grown.  My therapist told me (& I agree) that as we grow, we will be ending certain relationships that no longer congeal with the new person we are, and that’s OK.

Maybe take some time out with Maria.  Be alone and feel your feelings about her.

If Maria can’t understand this, then you just have to do what YOU need to do.  Maria will be FINE w/o you.  Don’t worry about her.

You & Maria have helped each other, but YOU OWE HER NOTHING.  And she owes you nothing.  If you 2 can be friends, that’s great, if not, that’s OK too.

As far as the vicious email, I know it hurts, but, forget it.  That person must be very troubled and it’s not your duty to help her if she is mean to you.

These are my opinions. HTH

Love,
sally

[Poppy Seed]

Is Maria giving you flack for putting up boundaries? 

Does Maria recognize who you really are, in spite of your strugglings?  Or does she need you to stay in a weakened state for some reason?

Could this be a transition period where you are defining a new "you" and she is thrown off by it?  Maybe she doesn't know where you will land and it makes her insecure?

Pops

[Ami]

WOW Amber,
  Your post has s/thing profound in it,but my emotions need time to absorb  it. Thanks for responding. It is so hard to be coming out of the  "freakin" hole-- at this age--- isn't it?: Layer upon layer of lies and distortions-----digging---- excavating----- mining .                    Love   Ami

[isittoolate]

Hi Ami

What concerns me is that Maria learned very quickly that you would "pay for the friendship".

Your life is very convoluted, and it would be helpful to read about your progress, where no one else is involved.

For you and Maria to be friends, I'm thinking you both have to be on the same page.

I would have no faith or trust in this new person who is sending vicious emails. She is a no-no.

Your Mother is a no-no. Mother or not, why would you feel that you could get better with her HATE in your life. I expect when we all can reach a point of no more abnormal thinking, can handle any situation, can tell any toxic person to take a walk, can find a friend who is honest and true, then we are close to home base!!

Sometimes we just need our own space in which to heal, without the input of others who might be more damaged than ourselves.

Is it time for a Time Out from Maria?

Just my wandering thoughts
Love
Izzy

[Ami]

Thanks for caring Izzy. It means a lot .                               Love   Ami

[Hopalong]

Sounds so hard, Ami. I'm sorry you're going through all this.

I noticed something:

she makes good money ,but the H wastes   it and she hardly has any.
 I said that she has to "rein in the H."

I think Maria does not set her own boundaries. IOW, it's up to HER who controls her salary. Perhaps she's in an old-fashioned relationship where she earns money but her H feels entitled to control (and waste) it? She's said she makes good money. So take her at her word. She needs to create a budget and set aside in HER OWN BANK ACCOUNT whatever she needs to have on hand to get safely through the month.

As to whether her H will buck that, again...that is Maria's job. If they need marital counseling and/or financial counseling, she needs to make that happen. Nobody else can do it for her. Even you. And if he's a true deadbeat, then she has another choice on her hands. Spinning her wheels at your kitchen table isn't saving her, and it isn't saving her children.

In a way, you are doing her a mitzvah by stopping the bailouts. I learned this the hard way with my D. Nobody gets responsible with money until they have to, unless they're born accountants. And she may still believe she's not entitled to full control of her own earnings. She could take a portion of her income, as could he, and pool it in a family account...but that's just basic finance.

A quote I always liked:

Pain happens. Suffering is a choice.

Susie Ormond writes great books aimed at women's relationship to money. That's her cause. Perhaps you could give Maria her newest one...

hugs
Hops

[Mati]

Hi Amy

When we are in recovery, we really need to have enough space to do it in without complicated relationships and those that we cannot do anything about (family) we can keep our communication with them simple whilst we get on with our healing.

Whatever went wrong in the relationship does not really matter at the moment Ami, you have enough to deal with over your mother and you will probably be able to work it out later.   I have found that I am only really able to heal properly without distractions.

Your needs are paramount. You deserve to heal.

[Ami]

Once again ---from all your wonderful responses ,I think that I figured out what happened. In  mid stream,I decided  that I wanted to live according to my gut. That involved not being a "slot machine".anymore She did not like that and kept trying to get me to go back to my former self(by guilt).   I responded by pulling away more which resulted in her trying to put more guilt on me.
  She didn't like that I changed the "rules" in the middle. That is what happened.
   I guess that there is no "blame". I was very weak and she helped me. I helped her. Then,I did not "want" the same victim role ( and she was on her feet) so I wanted to change the rules.That is what happened . We will see what happens from here. Actually,I just want to be done with it.I think that she was wrong  not to "admit" what was going on and instead try to blame me. This makes me angry? Would you feel that way,too?   
   I really just want the whole thing to go away.
 I realize that I have to go out  and live life. How else will I learn-- Right?(What about just staying in a hole?)
  I guess that the bottom line is that I am angry b/c she would not "admit" the truth. She wanted to blame me for "giving it" to her--- rather than see her side in it.
 I know that she was manipulating me and then blaming me for  "thinking" that she was asking for money.I think that this is what happened and I feel very angry about it.
                                                                                          Ami
.
   PS I am really hurting from all this,but I feel more"real" so that must mean that the whole thing is really "good"
   I think that what happened at the same time that I decided to trust myself was that another layer of denial about my M came off.I really see that she is a three year old and it is REALLY painful.

[lighter]

Maria must have liked the way things were very much. 

She had you to herself a lot. 

You were dependant and she got money for helping you, in a way. 

It was good for her but things changed for you.

Now.... watching you happily chat up all progress(read that as not needing her any more) is painful for her and on top of it..... she's losing your attention and financial support at the same time. Ouch.

Can't feel good for her.

Esp since your situation is improving while her's is still in the dumpster with her loser husband. 

I vote you still DO things with her that you need help with and pay her for that help.  That way.... you have other things to do with her, besides dwell on either of your problems, and she's still improving your life and you're improving yours.

People who're good at editing, organizing and decorating are hard to find.  Esp ones you like to do that sort of thing with.

You may even feel a little icky and enmeshed with her after the time you've spent at your lowest, with her doing all the leading. 

She's not ready for things to change, and sound like you are. 

[Ami]

That is very insightful ,Lighter. I stlll need a lot of help decorating the house. We have many rooms that are "Do Not Enter"(if you know what I mean).
  She got my downstairs really, really beautiful.Before  my H was ashamed to have people over----BLEH. My house was a pig sty with a depressive sitting in the middle(me)   She helped me to get beautiful,unique artwork and lots of other special things. You have a unique solution. Thanks Lighter                  Ami



PS I have a peace after reading your post. Why can't I figure out my own solutions?  Yours makes so much sense but I could never see it.. My thinking scares me.Why can't I figure out something"simple' like this?This is not just a rhetorical question.

[lighter]

Well..... get busy and set some goals with her. 

She'll feel needed and valued.... one part of the puzzle,

and you'll feel great about getting the house in order and it'll probably cost you a fraction of what an organizer would charge you.

Usually they'er between 70.00 and 100.00 an hour.

So.... get her thinking more positive and make some progress for both of you.

Think about what you've paid her and what you still have to do. 

Do you think you got a fair value, up to this point? 

You can say...... Look, I've gotten 2 rooms done and I think I've really under paid you... or I'd like to get 3 more rooms done and I think it's worth X dollars (taking into consideration what you've already paid her)

I value people who can do this kind of work (and focus my attention on it)

 Maybe this'll be a win win in the end?

If not, you tried and learned along the way. 

[sally]

Ami,

I see a red flag here:

she would not "admit" the truth. She wanted to blame me for "giving it" to her--- rather than see her side in it.
 I know that she was manipulating me and then blaming me for  "thinking" that she was asking for money.

This makes me uncomfortable. 

love,
sally

[Ami]

Maria is a genius about decorating. She can go to  consignment shops and make your house look like it could be in a magazine. She can go to dumpy stores and get museum type of artwork.
  You are right. Maybe,we will go out tomorrow. We have a  consignment store here where people bring nice furniture etc. She can go in to that dump and come out making my house like a palace.
   I got so overwhelmed with my pain that I could not see outside it----I guess. I had head up A##--itis for so long that my thinking is not right---
 Today,it also upset me that someone who I befriended started thinking that I was an "enemy" when I was not. Her thinking was so screwed up that it really upset me that maybe I am that screwed up ,but just don't see it----------BLEH.
  I have had so many changes lately that I don't know who I am.( Who I was ---was not so good-- maybe this will be an improvement)
                                                                                                                                       Ami