Why is it so hard to move on...

[gabbenangel]

Why it is difficult to move on and past a relationship with an N?

They are incapable of loving and caring. They hurt in covert and sneaking ways, they make you seem to be bad one or the abusive one - it seems that after you get past their facade and see the growling wolf under the sheep costume you would run for your life. But it seems that the N takes a piece of your life with them or has a piece of your life held hostage?

Does anyone ever encounter the N who plays the silent treatment card? It is almost as if it is their way to provoke you because they know that rejection and silence is one of your buttons? The know that you will become  frustrated and angry with them...that is when they turn and use your anger as a weapon against you by portraying you as the abuser or aggressor and they as the distressed one that just can't seem to understand why anyone would ever be upset with them.

Gabbenangel

[Ami]

Dear Gabbenangel,
  When I read your question, a thought 'hit" me that might be helpful. I was thinking about a relationship that I had with an N(maybe sociopath). The phrase,"When he's good,he's very good and when he's bad he's horrid" hit me. We have such 'hurting" parts in us and the 'sick N's  know how to "nurture' them( for a time). We feel the "tease" of the love that we never got from our parents. We feel that maybe ,now, we can be special .. The relationship seems to hold out that 'promise' . I guess s/one who was not "sick" would not "need" this.
  We are "yearning" for what the N seems to offer------ deep,unconditional cherishing .. However,it is like the moment that I had with my H. I thought that he would be the" good mother" and he turned out to BE my REAL  mother--bleh.
 Our needs are the problem. They are the entry way in to the relationship with the N.(IMO) Then ,later after it is all over, we miss the "good "times b/c they did fill our emptiness.It is like missing an addiction. There WERE good times. Emptiness was filled. Joy was there. However, at the end, we are dropped by the side of the road and "Don't know what hit us". Gabbenangel, keep asking your questions and facing the truths. .What a wonderful voice you  add to the board.           Love   Ami

[gabbenangel]

The relationship seems to hold out that 'promise' . I guess s/one who was not "sick" would not "need" this.
  We are "yearning" for what the N seems to offer------ deep,unconditional cherishing .. However,it is like the moment that I had with my H. I thought that he would be the" good mother" and he turned out to BE my REAL  mother--bleh.


This is exactly it...she made me feel special at one point, it was as if she played with my deepest wounded desire to be somebody special to someone...she used to tell me that I was special in the very first few sessions that we had together. Then she got cold.  I really don't want to be special...I just want to be a part of the human race...a member amongst members and a friend amongst friends. That need to be special just comes from the wounded girl in me that never got the deep affirming love that she needed when she was young. I had to let that go.

Yes, I had an unconscious wish to get from her what I never got from my mom...compassion and caring...how perfect that I would find an N and then work the drama of my unfulfilled wishes out with her...I have had to grieve ever getting that kind of love and just accept that my mom was who she was and that others and myself can be compassionate to me in smalll ways that make a difference.

Thanks Ami!

[tayana]

Gabbenangel,

My nmom is very fond of the silent treatment.  She can literally go weeks without saying anything over some perceived slight.  It doesn't matter whether or not you actually slighted her.  She expects you to be the one to apologize because she never doesn't anything wrong.  It's awful.  It's withholding love.

As far as why it's so hard to move on . . . I think we really want to receive love from these people, even though they are incapable of giving it.  In my case, I want to have a mother I can talk to about my problems, no matter what sort of awful things she's done to me in the past.    I just want to have a mother who loves, unconditionally.

I think there's also the hope, if they are our partners, that they will change and be the person we want them to be.

[Leah]

Gabbenangel,

Does anyone ever encounter the N who plays the silent treatment card? It is almost as if it is their way to provoke you because they know that rejection and silence is one of your buttons?

Yes, have encountered the silent treatment card from my exNH during my marriage, with the longest time of continual silence
being 5 weeks.

And also, my NM who would play the silent treatment card, to cause hurt and pain; by rejection, separation and loss, all the while during this period NM would have continual contact with my siblings.  Then the cards were shuffled and dealt again, whereby I was included once again, for a season, whilst my brother received the silent treatment card.

Love, Leah

[isittoolate]

hi

Yes Ami has alluded to that which draws us. The N can put on such a phony act of caring, loving, understanding, that we who are not ready for this 'too quick' relationship, think we have it made.

How can one forget what went on inside, when the N was in action at his /her best? We had it made! (will use 'him')

Then it falls apart. The mask is off. The N has shown true colours.

I think of 2 choices;
One is to realize that the initial person you met was a 'ghost', a 'puff of smoke' a melting ice cube, little if any substance; not at all real. (That's the one I used!)

# Two is to always be things of how you felt when the N was courting you and you were on top of the world. You want him back (BUT THAT ISN'T HIM) The real him is the liar, the abuser, the rager, the drinker, the cheater.

Just my thoughts on forgetting and moving on.

Good Luck


Izzy

[reallyME]

Gangel, here's my input:

Ami:

  We are "yearning" for what the N seems to offer------ deep,unconditional cherishing .. However,it is like the moment that I had with my H. I thought that he would be the" good mother" and he turned out to BE my REAL  mother--bleh.
 Our needs are the problem. They are the entry way in to the relationship with the N.(IMO) Then ,later after it is all over, we miss the "good "times b/c they did fill our emptiness.

Ami, you ROCK!  you put things so perfectly in text!

In my case, X knew what I yearned for cause they first counselled it out of me on a sort of retreat, and then  later withheld the affection from me that I craved, in order to punish me for not being what or who they wanted. 

X turned out to be so much like my parent, that I ended up sending them a pic of my mom.  N WAS HORRIFIED that my mother looked like she did.  N's do not by nature like other N's...I think it's because the mirror effect scares the bejeebers out of them...in other words, they are thinking 'do IIIIIIIIIIII really look like THAT to OTHER PEOPLE? IN PUBLIC?  DO I SEEM THAT EVIL?  OH DEAR I CANNOT ALLOW THIS AT ALL!  I AM SUPPOSED TO BE A KINDHEARTED PERSON ON THE OUTSIDE.  I SHOULD NOT AND MUST NOT LET MY TRUE INNER EVIL SELF SHOW TO OTHERS!"

As far as my needs having been the problem...YES DEFINITELY.  I was very NEEDY after having lost a borderline friend of 3 years whom i was very close to and to this day is still dear in my heart.  X knew about my sadness, heard my tears, and then once it was time to devalue me, those things were carefully thrown up at me as weapons.

I only pray that X is not off somewhere mistreating someone else like they did me.

[lighter]

It's hard because you still have hope that they'll change.

When you don't have any more hope.... then it's not so hard any more.

[Ami]

This thread is so enlightening.                                                                                                                     Izzy , that was a great description of the "road" we walk down with the N.It says the whole history in a few brief sentences-bleh.
  Laura -- I guess that the good news is that we can become "complete". Our codependence is what makes us fit together with the N  like two pieced  of the puzzle. If we take away the button that":fits" with the N( or anyone else, really), we should be "happy. That is my goal. Amber expressed it perfectly in another thread. We must not NEED  another person to be complete. I thought that I needed my first love-- my mother-- to be complete. I guess that I don't. When I felt whole(at times  in my life,)I didn't have her .. I had myself. Tayana said ,on another thread ,that she did not let her M steal her creativity. That is profound. She hung on to one aspect of herself .. I didn't do that. My M stole everything(mostly). However, now is the time to get it back.
  Thank you Gabbenangel, Izzy, Leah,Lighter and  Laura                            Love  Ami

PS Lighter you are right about the hope--toxic hope. Last night,I had a 'huge" insight. I saw my H for how he was. He would never be my friend  as in "have my back. He would kick me when I was down. I grieved it. Then, when I woke up today,I was more "together" and more "whole". I faced what I would never face before.
  My H does not "get it" at all. However,I get it and I see the truth.It is about an internal shift away from hope. I always wanted a M or H to protect me and have my back--but I accepted that I don't have it. I would love to feel cherished  and special,but I won't get it from "those two". I faced the truth and let go of some toxic hope. I feel so much better.

[sunblue]

Wow, sure can identify with the whole "silent treatment", "withholding" behavior of the Ns you describe.  I think it is a particularly manipulative and hurtful behavior Ns use.  Personally, I'd much prefer the N be upfront and honest about their feelings, however dysfunctional they are, than the silent treatment.

My Nmom is the queen of "withholding".  If you disagree with her or do something she disapproves of, she completely zones you out.  In my Nmom's case, it's not exactly total silent treatment since she will speak-----just not to you.  She'll speak to others in the room or occasionally to the person she is upset with....but it is usually necessary small talk required to get what she wants.  Mostly, she'll just pretend you're not even there and ignore you.  She will completely withhold attention or interest of any kind.  It's like you are invisible or a complete stranger that she has been instructed not to speak to. 

A perfect example occurred this very evening with my Nmom.  I have been going through a very hard time lately and especially this week.  My depression has deepened over my unemployment situation after having been rejected a lot lately.  As a result, I have had unexpected but painful crying jags.  Tonight, I was sitting on the couch and I started crying.  My tears were evident as they were streaming down my face.  My Nmom, who was literally sitting two feet away from me on the same couch, totally ignored me and my tears.  Instead, she continued to look through the fashion catalog she was studying and even pointed to one page to show me a sweater that she hated and would never wear.  After pointing to the sweater and talking about the clothes she hated or liked, she went back to browsing through the catalog.  Never once acknowledged me or my crying.  That pretty much epitomizes my Nmom's behavior towards me.  Ignoring me completely.  Never taking interest.  Treating me like I was completely invisible, unless it is something that would suit her purposes.

I don't know how you move through it.  Perhaps at some point you just become immune to this kind of behavior.  Perhaps you become so numb that you begin to look at your Nparent or significant other as if they were a stranger or invisible.  I haven't reached that point yet.  Not by a long shot.  It still hurts that my own mother won't even acknowledge the pain I go through.  I realized though that she no interest, no respect and no value for me.

[wiltay]

   Many Ns are extremely good at mirroring back to you exactly what you seem badly in need of,  just in order to have power over you, then to give it or withhold it as it suits them.  Vaknin had a word or phrase for this mirroring back which I can't remember.  He described it as an uncanny ability to read and play back your emotions and fool you into thinking they understand and genuinely care about your deepest hopes and dreams.  It's total hogwash of course.  They understand nothing and could care less.  It's purely the power to change your emotions with their actions, i.e. to play you like a fiddle,  that gets their kettle steaming. 

     The silent treatment of course, is withholding this reflection in order to punish you and get you back into the fold again.  Randy hasn't said one word to me for two years throughout all the reams of crap he's sent my way via other people.  It was very hurtful of course and it was intended to be.  Anyway, this is Vaknin's take on the subject as I remember it and I agree with it.   My father was an N and I believe I sought from Randy the things my father always withheld and R pretended to give them to me and for awhile the world was as it always should have been and never was up until then.  It was like a dream come true.  And why not?  And then, like  Ami said, he became my father, but even worse.  From the beginning it was a complete fabrication, smoke and mirrors, manipulation for the sake of someone (R) feeling powerful.  I am only now beginning to move on realizing this.

Bill

[Ami]

<sup>[I have a slightly different perspective on why it is so hard to move on though. Has anyone read Dr. Grossman's articles? In several of them he mentions how he builds rapport to an extent that the patient "feels" that he is with them, even after therapy ends. I think there is a similar dynamic that occurs with the N, or at least it did in my case. (and my N-friend has the background for it)  That is why therapy is such a difficult prospect for me. I don't want anyone messing with my mind again.

edit:  Or more accurately, I do not want to make myself vulnerable to someone with that skillset. That requires a level of trust that I no longer have.</sup>
   
Dear Sjoy,
  Thank you so much for your "explanation" of why you don't go to therapy. When people ask me why I don't go,I would like to borrow it,if I could.
  I am very grateful for your contributions to the board,sjoy.                 Love    Ami

[Leah]

Sjoy wrote:

edit:  Or more accurately, I do not want to make myself vulnerable to someone with that skillset. That requires a level of trust that I no longer have.

Sjoy,

Likewise, with regard to my decision of not entering into 'therapy'

Instead chose counselling (but the person had no understanding or knowledge of personality disorders) nevertheless, I did receive validation of varying kinds in relation to my exNH and FOO, and in particular, that I was not to blame or feel guilty for ending my marriage.

Also, chose courses, and in addition, the training courses for my volunteer work were immensely helpful.

And my personal choice of no anti-depressant medication.

Walked through it all by faith alone.

Love, Leah

[Ami]

Dear Izzy,Leah, Laura,Lighter,Sjoy ,Sun ,Tay, Gannenangel and Bill,
  Thank you for the contributions to this thread. The wisdom on it is mind-blowing.I wanted to share a wonderful experience that I had today.
  I had been really hurting as I faced my M and H. The other night,I hurt so deeply when I faced that my H was not my friend(emotionally). Something in him strikes me(and others) when I are down. His F was  like this. I could never face this in my H b/c I needed a friend too badly to even SEE the truth. I faced it the other night. I came out of denial and I had a peace come over me.
     I have been having the "urge" to have some sort of addiction. Really ,what I want is a "codependent" relationship where s/one will tell me that I am cherished and special..I want to "feel" like I am loved "unconditionally" without having to "do anything(perform). I am "craving" this. however,I am also,looking at the "craving" and seeing WHAT is it that I want exactly.
 I want those "feelings". In the past,I would try to get those feelings met by some codependent "action".
Now,I am just looking at my "needs" like I would look at an animal in the zoo. I am seeing that if I try to meet them with a person,then I am setting up a situation of powerlessness for me. I am giving away my power to you,so that you will tell me that I am worth s/thing.
 I think about the times that I did this. It felt "good"like the first piece of chocolate. However,it felt horrible, too,like the whole box of chocolates.
  I am thinking of one situation where I got my "wish" and I got all the"attention" that I wanted. It felt 'wonderful" like a short trip to heaven,but it set up an addiction where I needed more. Also, I was very numb and just going through some "yearning" ritual.
   I can see it in my mind's eye. Was it really a "happy" experience? Was it "fulfilling? Was it a desperate hunger that was trying to be met by "eating s/thing indigestible"?
 When I woke up today,I had a familiar feeling that I had when I was "whole" such a long time ago.I felt that there was ONE thing that I had some control over. It is how do I want to be? What qualities do I value in myself? How do I want to function within myself and in the outside world?what is my own particular"signature" in life?
  I felt a happiness about being able to cultivate the qualities that I like about myself. I felt a joy about having certain parts of me that are unique and that I like. I used to  enjoy being in my own skin.I was happier going for a walk in the sun than going on an exotic trip. I was happy b/c I was at peace in my own skin.This is the ultimate"vacation".
   I feel the beginnings of myself "coming" together. I am finally coming "home" after this horrible N journey .. I wanted to share it with you .
 The journey back to life from the N nightmare is s/thing only you,on the board, would understand. Thank you for being there and for all the love that you give me.               Ami

[gabbenangel]

 From the beginning it was a complete fabrication, smoke and mirrors, manipulation for the sake of someone (R) feeling powerful.  I am only now beginning to move on realizing this.

Bill
[/quote]

Ouch - This N woman mirrored my mom in the begining. She held the promise for me, like you and others have conveyed, that I could finally have or get the special love, mostly affirming love, the kind of attention that we need when we are little and through-out our youth that was never there for me. It was that look the we crave from our parents that sparkle in their eyes that tells us they love us and that we are special to them.

Because this N was a therapist she would spend time with me in friendship outside of the appointment hour. I already had good boundaries and found this parculiar behavior on her part odd but I rationalized it by telling myelf that it just affirmed her extra special care for me, why else would she spend time with me outside the appointment hour?

It was all smoke scream like you said...wow the pain of healing from an N is tough...one layer of pain is the now layer and the other layers are from your history...it is healing though... slowly.

This website helps so much because it helps me get past the idea that this situation was all me and I am the bad one while she is the good one.