I guess That's It

[surf14]

HI Everyone;

  I have not been on the board  too much lately but had come to the board during a difficult time with my N Mother and wanted to get back now to relate the outcome.  My mother and I had been trying for the past year to begin to relate again after years of distance; she was emotionally and physically abusive to her children while raising them and I had distanced emotionally and geographically over the years as everytime I would move closer to her she would kick me, so to speak.  It seemed ridiculous to expose myself to more of her abuse when I had struggled to recover my self esteem.

During one conversation this spring she saw an opportunity to dagger me over a sensitive relational issue involving my ex-husband; I could't believe she was still into that kind of meanness.  The way I have learned to express myself and give myself voice I did ie I e-mailed her that her  remark had hurt my feelings a bit.  (very benign)  She answered back by shouting at me online and did not answer my low-key  e-mail for six more weeks.  After six weeks I e-mailed her again saying I had not heard from her how was she?   Aftr several weeks she answered briefly; the atmosphere was decidedly cold.

  However, for Mother's day I sent her a nice card and some goodies I know she likes  but I did not hear from her.  After one week i e-mailed her and asked it she had gotten the gift.?  She answered back angrily that she had and I would have to forgive her for not getting back to me and a thank you card would be promptly be in the mail.  I never heard from her nor received the thank you card she angrily promised.  I guess she was angry because I had asked her if she had received my gift; that made her feel bad about herself.  I had asked becasue I was afraid the mail might have been late and she might have spent Mother's day thinking I didn't think of her.  But no, she just didn't want to talk with me apparently and took my question about receiving the gift as a criticism!!@@!!.  (Can't win)   I didn't want a card anyway from her since I had sent a card; we have talked on previous strings here about the strangeness of N's relationship to their thankyou cards!!@@!!)  She  since has not  answered a newsy e-mail I sent asking about her recent trip to a neighboring state.

I know she has "let me go" because she knows if she had a relationship with me it would have to be real and she couldn't handle it.  Her self esteem has always been a real problem for her and she projects her insecurity onto others and accuses others of all kinds of  negative motives; I'm sure she has done this to me as well, probably feeling that when I said she had hurt my feelings I was being too critical.  Its always been OK for her to dish out meanness but one is never allowed to defend or protect ones self or enforce any boundaries.  Her children , in her eyes just exist for the purpose of meeting her needs.  She's never been able to transform that.

I feel sad about her having let me go; as mean and sh---y as she is I do love her.  Its kind of a primal feeling having your own mother confirm to you that she doesn't love you and cares nothing about your feelings.  I have been able to form some good relationships with others and am well liked by people and and patients I work with (I'm in healthcare) so I'm very clear about whose dysfunction is whose.  My husband says she needs to abuse and kick oythers  in order to raise herself up.  Our relationship is over, I can feel it and I have regarded this as time to let go too so that when she passes on there is no lingering baggage or regret.  I'm very glad I was gentle with her so I can't blame myself (I'm very good at feeling guilty) and gave her no reason that she could genuinely be angry at me.  Its her call and her volition to end it.

 I'm so glad I got away years ago and and have built a life for myself where I have been able to heal.  

Any feedback from the forum is appreciated.    Surf

[Portia]

Hiya Surf.
Did she let you go, or has she simply not contacted you so as to protect that fragile centre that all Ns have? In the gentlest way possible, I'm trying to say her actions are not about you, they're about her. So - and how can I say this to a daughter about her mother? - it's not personal to you. She's not doing it against you....she doesn't know you.

And to think she doesn't love you or care about you....remember, she doesn't love or care about anyone at all. It's not possible.

You say in your sign-off that suffering is optional. I'm not too sure. I think we have to suffer first to come out the other side. Maybe continued suffering is optional, but grieving what is lost - we have to do that....very best wishes, you must be hurting, I'm sorry....P

[Anonymous]

Hi Portia;

 Thanks for your reply.  Yes, you are absolutely right, she is not contacting me to protect herself.  It is about her, always about her only.  She is loveless and not able to care about another's feelings in the least.  That's what hurts.  How does she think I feel about  the anger she shows, the lack of saying sorry when she syas something hurtful and the not replying to my e-mails?  She doesn't care.  That kind of clinches it.  It is the hardest thing accepting this situation and resigning myself to the fact that she will never change.  No matter what, I always seem to hold out hope and that is where I get disappointed.  I know others here have discussed the wrenching struggle with hoping the loved one will change and having so much trouble with accepting that this character problem is permanent.

I guess in terms of suffering being optional; perhaps its how long we choose to keep ourselves in the suffering zone after the fact that  is the optional part.  Ideally one will take the suffering and transform it to something more positive ie sensitivity and support for others.  

Aloha       Surf

[Anonymous]

surf,

I'm sorry about the events with your mother. Apparently she was severely abusive during your childhood and she hasn't changed one iota. All you can expect from her is further immaturity and bratty behavior. She isn't disowning you, though. She's just sulking like a baby.

Here are your choices as I see them:

(1) Stay in touch with her but expect zero response. Don't follow up by asking whether she received anything from you. Just send messages and let them go.

(2) Don't contact her, and just let things lie. Work on yourself. You'll hear from her again, I predict.

bunny

[mighty mouse]

Hiya Surf.

And to think she doesn't love you or care about you....remember, she doesn't love or care about anyone at all. It's not possible.




Portia and Surf,

I think this is THE hardest concept to get when dealing with an N...especially a parent. But I have to say that I couldn't really grow up until I fathomed that concept.

And it's hard to say who cut who loose. My NMom can't stand for me to put boundries in place so she has stopped calling, etc.. But I have to say that I have a sense of real joy that I never had before. I finally accepted the fact that she can't really love me (or anyone like you said), and it freed me to finally become a real adult. I know that sounds weird....I was too mature when I was a kid but never really got to grow up like I needed to. It feels good, but it has been a long process of letting go.

Good luck to you Surf. And Portia, your voice is always nice to hear.

MM

[Anonymous]

Hi Surf -- I am so sorry that you are feeling this grief about your relationship with your mother. She sounds as though she hasn't changed a bit from the way she was when you were a child -- clearly because she is incapable of changing.

You say you can feel your relationship with her is over. Since you say you've distanced yourself from her for many years, I wondered how your recent contact with her began. Did you contact her, or did she contact you?  And in the past, has she "gotten over" her anger as time passed? I would think that would give you some clues about what will happen now. If she is a typical N, she will likely come back for more, as you have demonstrated that you're willing to continue communicating, even though she won't apologize.

Morgan

[Anonymous]

HI Morgan, Mighty Mouse and Bunny;
thanks so much for responding and giving me the opportunity to dialogue about this and get some ideas.

Morgan:  My mom and I had never completely lost  touch but I had confronted her ten years ago with the abuse in the quintessential Susan Foreward style ("Toxic Parents").   This was received extremely poorly by her and she denied anything had ever  happened; then called me a  "cruel and viscious" person.  That really cooled things down but I think she still wanted a relationship on her terms.  About four years ago I returned home with my two daughters for the first time in 22 years.  I hadn't been back because everytime she visited me ( I was living in CA at the time)  things went poorly.  On her trips she was demanding, judgemental and critical of me.  Our trip back tho went pretty well as she was on her best behavior and my sister was there to buffer things.   She visited me in Hawaii two years later with my sister and again she was on her worst behavior.  The topic of the abuse and my confrontation was brought up by her at luch one day and (I should have known better than to let her draw me into a discussion about something like this that she can't handle).  She did admit in a way to the abuse at the time and I was able to say "how do you think itmade me feel when I origianlly brought this up so we could deal wiht it and move on and you lied to me, called me viscious and then turned your back on me and walked away?"  She just responded that she had flet attacked. In the admitting of it now she felt very vuknerable and again her defensed shot up and she left from this trip very angry at me. I felt an oodgie feeling being around her after awhile and at times, due to certain mean things she said and did, I felt I was in the presence of evil.  I'm not trying to be dramatic but am describing it as I felt it.  

Things cooled again as she never said thanks for the vacation time I spent taking her around Oahu;  her only outward criticism was that I seemed tired.  Well, I was after working and commuting all year and spending my two weeks off catering to her. I do have sole responsibilty for raising my daughters and providing for them as well as running a household.  My goodness, yes I get tired. Anyone else might not have critcized but would have sensed my fatigue and stopped imposing.

Anyhow, I read a book about anger by Tich Hnat Hnan  where he talked about a woman who healed her relationship with an alcoholic mother by just simply saying  "I love you" to her everyday.  Well, I felt this was something I could do to help things and bring some closure to our relationship.  When I told my mom on the phone that I loved her she started to cry.  It really meant alot to her I think. So, I got into the habit of talking with her on the phone for the past year and saying that to her frequently; she always seemed to really like it.  She began to call me, something she never had really done, even at Christmasshe called!  I would hear from her every two weeks or so.  It was kind of nice although it required patience at times because of her self-centerdness.  That brings me up to date  to the story told above where I was expressing some feelings about my ex and she clearly went out of her way to dagger me and was openly disloyal to me in supporting him.   That gave me the opportunity to make her more sensitive by letting her know gently that she had hurt my feelings.  That is the way to move on from these things and carry on with a relationship.  I can't just stand there and allow her to insult me after all I've been through giving my children a stable life,  But she told my sister she had stopped writing because I was too critical of her.  MY GOSH; I hadn't even voiced a criticism; I had merely reflected MY feelings and the rest is history.  She was projecting her own thoughts about herself onto me and labeling me critcical.  No way to get through here; no way to win.
 (Sorry this is so long)

Bunny:  you seem to understand her perfectly. Yes, she is exceedingly immature and has not changed.  Amazing.  And she doesn't want to.  I'm afraid her silence is her way of saying that she will not consider my feelings no matter what and she will not change.  She used to say years ago those famous words that I hate:  "People will just have to accept me the way I am, I'm not changing".  To me this is the true sign of a personality disorder.
  I will  do the second of your suggestions Bunny; just distance since this is her wish and I will honor it. But for now I will send her flowers on her birthday.  Whether or not she responds doesn't really matter, I'm doing what's right but if she ignores my girls and myself for birthdays and Christmas that follow, I will cease trying.  Its hard to tolerate too much rejection.

Hi MM; nothing you said sounded wierd.  You have a very realistic and mature grasp on the problem.  I was wondering if you have ANY contact with your mom anymore and  did you feel guilty for enforcing the boundaries which she couldn't accept which led to severed contact?

Thanks again so much guys!  Any more thoughts are welcome.

 

[Anonymous]

Sorry, that last  posting was me of course.    Surf

[mighty mouse]

Dear Surf,

The last time I actually spoke to my Mom was about 1 year ago. We emailed once or twice around Christmas and then she emailed me in February asking about storms in my area (she knows nothing about me and that's the way she tries to seem concerned). I told her that if my house gets blown away that I would get around to letting her know eventually. Yes....that was a bit snipey. But I want to get into the habit of letting her know that I'm on to her faux concern and that's she's not important enough to know anything about me until I'm darn good and ready - i.e. on my terms, not hers. Of course I now know not to tell her anything very personal or very near and dear to my heart as she'll exploit it.

Like I mentioned on another post I am sort of in the process of rebelling against her like a teenager. But I have also come to the understanding that she will never change and doesn't really care about me (or anyone). I did send her a very non-committal B-day card but didn't send her a Mother's day card (she always counts how many cards she gets). So I decided to leave her one short. But I have decided it's more important to "have me" than to "have her". So I've finally copped to the idea that perhaps I won't ever see her again.

There was another thread here somewhere mentioning that you may have to be okay with being perceived as the "bad guy". And I'm okay with that now. I haven't gotten any emails so I'm sure that I offended her - it's not hard to do. But she can say the ickiest things and not be concerned, apologetic in the least. Hey, she's got 7 other children to kick around. She won't miss me. She knows I'm not Nsupply anymore. And it's lifted a huge burden!


MM

[Anonymous]

Hi MM;
  Your sense of freedom is refreshing sounding.  If your mom is like my mom, and she sounds very similar, she will be greatly offended by the lack of a mother's day card.   I too have learned only recently, and the hard way, not to talk with my mother about anything personal.  After her last dagger I think she senses that and is offended.  But when trust is destroyed its gone, whoosh!  She is responsible for that.  It sounds like you feel as though you really don't  need your mother for anything anymore because of her toxicity.  Its very sad.

My mother has been toying with excommunicating me  ever since I confronted her with the abuse ten years ago.  That's how she handles things when people need her to take responsibility.  BOOM, she cuts them off.  She may have decided to do this at last now.  Kind of feels like that because she's never quite pulled away like this, or has she?  Bunny may be right; she may be pouting.  

I know what you mean by becoming comfortable with the bad guy role; I've definately been carrying  this for some time now because of bringing out the past to my mom but I've never been comfortable with it. I'm just  more used to being well liked and thought of and probably achieve a lot of esteem from that.  So its an odd feeling when my mom sticks me in this role as a bad person, or a shameful person or whatever she constructs to shield her from her sins.

she is clear that i am not a good source of N supply and is acting accordingly I presume.

Aloha  MM

[surf14]

That was me again MM, I logged in but it didn't pick up my name.  Surf

[Singer]

I was wondering if you have ANY contact with your mom anymore and  did you feel guilty for enforcing the boundaries which she couldn't accept which led to severed contact?

Thanks again so much guys!  Any more thoughts are welcome.

 

Hi Surf,

I'm struck over and over again by how similar the experiences of ACON's are. This is what has given me the most difficulty: My Nmother will not accept any boundaries on her behavior, which leads me to believe that she truly wants to severe contact with me, more so than the other way around.

However, to severe contact with her means severing contact with my brother and sister also, since they seem to want to ignore what's going on and react as we did as children, which is to let her vent her anger on whomever, and protect oneself . This grieves me more than severing contact with my mother, but it seems unavoidable.

Does there ever come a point where it makes more sense to abandon one's family of origin than to try to preserve it?  My two daughters are young adults now. Their take on it is that everyone's family is screwed up and you just deal. They deal with it by avoiding contact with Grandma.

I guess in terms of suffering being optional; perhaps its how long we choose to keep ourselves in the suffering zone after the fact that is the optional part.

I have a feeling that I'm pretty much the only one who's choosing to keep myself in the suffering zone. My mother's satisfied because everyone is at odds. My brother and sister are dealing in the same way they always have. My daughters are trying to make sense of things through logic.  And I'm still hoping that Mom will someday approve of us all.

Funny thing is, I don't even want her love, I just don't want her to die claiming that I'm a total screw-up. Because if she says so, that would make it inescapably true.  I think that's the REAL power of an NMother.

Singer

[Anonymous]

Hi  Singer;
  Boy do I relate to the feelings you describe.

"Does there ever come a point where it makes more sense to abandon one's family of origin than to try to preserve it?"

I have been heavily involved with this thought for a long time.  I am sure the answer is yes, it does make more sense to abandon one's family of origin if the state of dis-ease in that family threatens to sicken you and your current family.  Actually if this is the case, abandoning that family of origin is imperative.

Because of your relationship with your brother and sister you stand to lose more than is reasonable if you choose to abandon that family.  Do you  feel that your siblings would not understand at all if you charted  your own course away from your mother?  Would there be a chance to retain relations with them but not your Mom?  

"I have a feeling that I'm pretty much the only one who's choosing to keep myself in the suffering zone. "

Its so very hard to stop hoping they will just  come to their senses and be normal like most other people, isn't it?  It just seems so basic but they resist it  like it was the plague.   Incomprehansible!

Take care Singer.            Surf

[longtimelurker]

Hi,

one way of looking at leaving your family is this :-

if you still participating in a dysfunctional family you are still part of the problem. in a way you are supporting them and their way of dealing with things.

if anyone is to have a chance to understand themselves or to have that realisation that leads to change you can't support them or do anything for them.
a bit like an alcoholics loving spouse who supports him in all sorts of ways - but she's preventing him from following his own path - which one day may lead to resolution.

that's the kind of thing i've been thinking of lately - perhaps my thoughts didn't come across that clearly but i'm sure someone might be able to phrase it more succintly
I hope it adds to the discussion.

[Anonymous]

Great thought Longtimelurker;

The realization of this enablement makes it important to leave and yet the sad realization is that the rest of the family won't understand and are even more likely to label your behavior as abandonment.   Quite a burden to bear but not a reason not to interrupt the dynamic and withdraw.  What's the difference?  You're probably already thought of as the bad guy because your behavior breaks with the family code of conduct anyway.

Surf