I "Forgive" Too Easily

[Ami]

I am just frustrated and I am going to ''air" it. There is a person who has been belittling me for a year. I have been like a "boxer" dodging back and forth.I feel very 'badly" for the person b/c she had a horrible life( worse than mine) HOWEVER,once I got her "off me", I felt sorry for her again  again and went back and was "nice" and the same belittling started all over again.
  I have a friend who saw the belittling and would NEVER engage ,again. Not me--.
  I am so angry ,but I must think about WHAT lesson I can learn.
  I guess that I don't feel like I have the right to say,"NO" or "No more" IF I feel sorry for a person.
  Sounds like a pattern to me. I always denuded myself for my M ,partly b/c I felt so sorry for her that she was so insecure.
  I could really hit s/thing,I am so angry.                              Ami-

[Iphi]

Similar experience - I struggle a lot with feeling like a big meanie for telling people I feel sorry for/compassion/sympathy/pity/whatever that they need to treat me decently, nonetheless - that is my dad's m.o.  I'm a big meanie unless I throw down all boundaries and allow whatever vandalism of my soul he feels like and call it 'good.'  So it isn't as hard to have boundaries with people I don't know as with people that are closer - much much harder.

I am going to think about the main issue you bring up and get back to you (have to pump, visit the baby, go to a meeting, eat lunch), but in the mean time - I am so excited that you are feeling angry and relatively on time right?  Not a decade later!

[Ami]

BLESS YOU,Iphi  !!!

[wiltay]

Yup, I agree with Iphi, Ami.  Your M made you feel bad about yourself for 'hurting' her whenever you had an emotion of your own,  or one she didn't approve of,  or ran counter to the way she wanted you to feel,  and/or she withheld love whenever you got too independent or uppity, so you just stifle yourself  whenever  your own 'selfish, hurtful' wants come up.  Extremely frustrating!!  You become trapped in an endless loop, damned if you do, damned if you don't. My own M did this too and I hadn't previously thought of her as an N, but it is VERY N-ish.  Thanks for 'airing' this Ami.  It brought up my own stuff.

Bill

[Ami]

Dear Bill,
  This post is so "right" on that it takes my "breath away". How did you figure this out? It is 'my life"in a microcosm----bleh.
                              Love to You,   Ami

[axa]

HI Ami,

Glad to hear that you are angry and so you should be.  I think that forgiving too easily is so unhealthy.  People need to EARN forgiveness.  It comes back to boundaries practise, practise,practise is the only way you can learn to enforce them.  Make our boundaries for yourself and leave the outcome be what it may.  My experience is that people with healthy boundaries do not get abused........... they get out.

Practising mine daily, with difficulty a lot of the time, may I add.

Axa

[Ami]

This particular interaction was a "blessing" to me.It showed me the whole "microcosm" of my life. S/one violates me. They seem "pitiful". I cater to them and not 'care" for myself. I go against myself b/c my "pity" for them overrides my 'care ' for myself. I get taken in .
  I feel "horrible' about myself  b/c I have no 'self respect". That is my life with my M.
   My friend watched this person and said,"I will have nothing to do with her,". I said,"I feel sorry for her."My friend did not let 'guilt" make her denude herself--bleh.
  That is why I was so angry.
    Ami

[wiltay]

I am much the same way Ami.  My empathy light goes on for everybody whether they deserve any or not.  It's virtually automatic and I often regret it and feel angry and stupid and perplexed about it later.
Bill

[Ami]

Dear Bill,
  What do you think that the deeper issue is with it?  I am going to write(journal) about it. For me, I bet it is fear of s/one's anger---bleh .                          Ami

(((((((((((((Bill)))))))))))))))))

[gabbenangel]

I think that forgiving too easily is so unhealthy.   

I like this line - We can't just forgive or then we become a doormat.

People need to EARN forgiveness.

This I disagree with. we can find forgiveness in our hearts  even if the other person never knows what they did or how they wronged us. But it DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE HAVE TO TRUST THEM OR ENGAGE WITH THEN ANYMORE.

After I have worked through the pain and hurt of what other do, crying tears and feelings of anger that are sometimes accompanied by vengeful thoughts (where I have to pray for them instead), I find that I can suddenly see, I see their pain and fear and why they did what they did. Also, I see that at some point I made a decision based on "self" that put me in that position to be hurt.  Just like I brought into my saint N therapist special promise of love, really it was a play on my unfulfilled needs and wishes, I got hooked and then I got let down. I had a part. When I can see my part, the choices I made out of fear or self, I can release the other person and see them for who they are - it is freeing. It seems to me Ami that you have already done this with this person or are in the process?

It comes back to boundaries practise, practise,practise is the only way you can learn to enforce them.  Make our boundaries for yourself and leave the outcome be what it may.  My experience is that people with healthy boundaries do not get abused........... they get out.

This is true for me; the more I set boundaries, practicing courage or a leap of faith, the stronger and easier it is to set boundaries and to discern others characters before the drama starts. It is like you said to me Ami, "the hole" we get the point where we just take a different street rather than fall in. But life is full of holes and the different street will even have one if we don't keep our eyes open.

Love you,
Lise

[wiltay]

Lise, I think it's so true that we play a role in whatever happens to us, but one thing I think you are overlooking is that there really ARE 'predators' out there, people who have the need to use others for their own gratification.  Child molesters and rapists are the worst examples.  Yes, they were victims of lousy parents probably, but so what? I really don't care.  N's are often (not always) predators as well in search of their own gratification at the expense of others who are particularly vulnerable to them.  What they do isn't 'illegal,' but it certainly isn't right either.
 
   I  play volleyball  with someone who is a major N. I have compassion for his 'humanity' and the way he is trapped in his house of mirrors and self-defeating behavior and I often even like him when he is behaving like a normal human being for some reason (it's rare), but basically he prays on other people's vulnerabilities without any shame whatsoever because it makes him feel superior.  Also, his grandiose need to be the center of the universe by throwing temper tantrums whenever things don't go his way, causes many people a great deal of emotional distress.  In short, he takes as much as he can and gives back nothing but grief.  I understand and share your impulse to be compassionate but some people just don't deserve much IMO.

Bill

[wiltay]

Ami, I know fear of anger is definitely part of it. I think there are about 58 things going on and it's making my brain tired thinking about them.   It's a good question.
Bill

[gabbenangel]

Hi Bill,

As I was reading your post I was struck with the insight that perhaps I did NOT do anything wrong with this N woman, perhaps it is just like you say. She is a predator and was preying on my vulnerability, my need to be a part of and to have social connections and she did this under the guise of Christianity, calling herself an apostle.

Your stating that there actually are just people...predators that we run into never hit me so hard... because I blame myself so much.

No I did not do anything wrong. I often felt guilty with my mom too.

The following webpage was and is the best description of her, saintly N, it is her through and through, she is so good at looking like a loving innocent Christian.

http://www.narcissism.operationdoubles.com/strategy_of_narcissism.htm

The priest at my church, who sided with her, is different from the pastor. She, the N saint would often complain to me that the actual pastor of my parrish would not even look at her 'he won't have anything to do with me" she used to say. She could not figure that out either. I could not figure that out either.  I mean she had a following of disciples and had written a book, she was living the Gospel as far as I was concerned so why would he avoid her so much, I used to wonder? His avoidance of her was actually one of the first red flags for me; it began me questioning her or looking under the mask.

There was once a time when I invited her to a retreat ceremony that was very important to me. Well, she had already crossed boundaries, I babysat for her, I socialized with her why would I not want her to be at a very important occasion that related to our work.  She said yes, of course, but she showed up late and left early all the while she had her head down and was seeming to be stressed about something. 

There is a saying that I read somewhere that says never love anything that can't love you back.


The N that you play volleyball with, he does not know that he is an N, correct? I mean these people may be good inside but they just don't know what they are doing? I just have the hardest time believing that people exploit others so shamelessly...they have to be operating from the neck up?

Do you have any good reading suggestions on Ns?
 
Lise

[gabbenangel]

Sorry Ami...I know that this was your original post about forgiveness, I don't want to take it hostage.

Recall, we are the "voiceless" we want to be valued not devalued. An this situation for you is someone devaluing you...where is your voice in the situation? Like Bill says, it is about fear and perhaps the backlash that could come about if you were to give your precious voice to the situation and stand up for yourself directly, if you have not already done so? How do we speak our truth, use our voice, gain the respect and dignity that we deserve without hurting others? I know that if I can speak the truth to someone from a place of acceptance rather than anger, they will hear it better and might grow from it. But when I am still angry they are bound to just put up walls.

I once read that forgiveness is not letting someone off the hook.

Just this morning by bully roommate emailed the household (other roomies) complaining that someone took her coffee, she was angry which I have don't have too much problem with (just ask Bill), she ended the email telling everyone "not to respond."  That was her way of controlling. She was afraid of our response. I had to email her back and tell her how I felt when I read that, I said "I felt squished."  It would seem only fair that others would have an emotional response to an upset angry email and telling them to "not respond" is a subtle form of oppression...were is our voice? She chilled and apologized. She treats me with respect but inside I know that she mocks me.

Hope some of this helps,
Lise

[Hopalong]

I think one thing I retain from my childhood faith is that everybody is already forgiven.
Mind you, that isn't necessarily exactly what I was taught to believe. But I do believe it.

So in a sense, my being hurt or angry or wary or wounded or scared or devastated doesn't really have anything to do with forgiveness, in my heart of hearts. Everybody's already forgiven. It's moot. I don't need to decide about it. It's done. It's not even my job, except at a personal practical emoto-growth level. (When I don't forgive, I'm emotionally constipated.)

What I can do though, is pay much more attention to whether I'm forgiving myself, as I err my way along, more quickly. In the moment, as it happens, until I get to the place where I, too, am already (before the moment) forgiven...and therefore I no longer writhe with shame and get so distracted.

I'd like to be able to screw up, hurt someone, or do whatever other failing I do, as it is a certainty I will...and be forgiven already. Assume it. (I do not mean make no effort to do what's right. I mean not spend time after a mistake writhing about it. I want to KNOW I'm forgiven, so I move directly to making amends, and continue living creatively.)

This sounds an awful lot like religion but I am not really wanting to use those terms. I think I'm talking about faith, not doctrine.

Rambling on,
Hops