I am so used to abuse that I don't even see it anymore

[Hopalong]

Ami,
Does his rage seem to stem from frustration, or from cruelty?

Take care of yourself.

Hops

[Ami]

Frustration--Why Hops?

[Ami]

This  is the thing that I am struggling with .(If anyone wants to hit me over the head with a machete,please restrain yourself)
  My H has a reason to be angry and frustrated with me and with my S(older). He was looking for s/thing and I was just "sitting there" ----out of it. He was angry b/c he had been working for the whole day and I was "unresponsive". Also, he wanted my S to go to the bank and my S kept "forgetting" .
  So, the seed for my H's anger was real.. The problem is with HOW he expresses it.I guess that is the problem for ALL l of us. What M is not frustrated with her children and wants to "kill" them.It is "normal"to be angry and frustrated. It is HOW you express it that puts you in the category of "abusive" --am I right?
  Also, I guess that everyone loses it and screams at times.
   Anyway, My H was "losing it" b/c he was  not appreciated. He is a wonderful provider,but that does not take away the need to be kind, emotionally. That was his childhood pattern.If you provided ,you could have childish emotions.His M still brags  that my H was wonderful in school ,but when he came home ,he could let loose and have whatever tantrums he wanted. She thought that it was cute or appropriate.
  Anyway, that IS his childhood pattern. My S and I face the truth. However, the confusing thing WAS that I WAS wrong in that incident and in others. I do things wrong. He has  grievances with me that are "right"
  Then, my younger S is "golden". However,my younger S is now having problems with his emotions,while my older S ,who can see the truth, is good emotionally.My S (older) is getting very wise. He had an N boss. That "smartened " him up. Also, he is getting very wise ,in general. He is a student and a manager at McDonalds. He worked his way up from the counter at 16.  it. He is very good at it.
   I guess that I will not see or heal this all in a day.I am glad that I never "repeated" and that is a blessing. 'God will not begin a good work in you(healing) without taking it to completion"    Love   
                                                                Ami

 

[Gabben]

"'God will not begin a good work in you(healing) without taking it to completion"       


Oh how I needed to hear that this morning.

((Ami)),

I'm still reading through all the new posts and working my to begin responding, especially to your recent threads.  It may take me a while to respond but I am carrying you and others on this board in my warmest thoughts today.


Lise

[Ami]

I guess that I got in to "abuse" b/c I didn't have my core and I will get out to the degree that I strengthen my core.                                                    Ami

[Ami]

I backed my H down.I said that I should have done the things  I did BUT he cannot have tantrums(rages) as a means of expressions---oy. He agreed.                                    Ami

[lighter]

Ami.... you should probably skip this post..... it's not directed at YOU so much as everyone dealing with a controlling hurtful person in an abusive relationship.  

This is my running commentary about that issue and I post it here, just in case it makes sense to someone.

 Eh... after reading it twice I've decided the snake stuff is just confusing but...... I leave it cause I'm pressed for time.  I get confused with the NPD and other types of disorders, addictions etc.  

I keep this post on this thread, bc it makes sense to leave it here.  I just have to apologize up front and hope you skip it if you're not in the mood for it, Ami.  

 










It's like watching someone dance around snakes....

appreciating their natures and understanding why the snakes had to bite them.....

acceptance that it's all the snake knows.



After all.... the snakes were feeling fear..... feeling aggression bc someone was dancing by.... provoking them.

I guess dancing around snakes isn't the problemn after all.... the snake just has to change it's nature?

Hey!

IT COULD HAPPEN!

Anyhoo.....



I have to say the following... even if it seems obviouse:

It's never appropriate for someone to threaten someone, verbally or physically....

it's never appropriate for someone to raise their voice when we/general aren't responding in the manner they desire/require/insist on...... or they'll rage, become violent and injure us if we don't...... bc that's what they do, have always done, is what their FOO did.

Not even if we forget something so gravely important as a trip to the bank.

It is, however, appropriate for bullies to use verbal and physical threats to get their way.....

esp if everyone around them keeps making excuses for their behavior. They don't even have to slow down or play games.

Esp if the people they're doing it to spend lots of energy exploring the abuse in an attempt to make sense out of it.  

Esp if it's an unnacceptable shock to the system every time it's realized.... leaving fresh wounds over and over again. That's not a good groundhog day, IMO.  

It's never appropriate for people to treat anyone in an abusive manner.  

Ever.  

Is the snake still at fault if the dancer doesn't stop dancing through his territory?  If the dancer is an adult.... capable of moving to different territory and of sound mind....

hmmmm....of sound mind....

When the snake bites someone,

who's sitting by silently, not bothering them.....

just sitting there overwhelmed and saying nothing bc they don't want to deal with the snake......

then the snake isn't just biting bc it's his nature... he's not a snake.  

Or is he?

 Eeek.

 It doesn't matter really.... if that's someone's true nature, no use to bother with why.

 How dreadful, to be lower than a snake and seek out to do harm.... not avoid it but invite and initiate. Terrible stuff, that.

 

How does that old saying go?  It seems appropriate just now...::snapping fingers::

"Doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different outcome...."  

What's that called?  Whether it involves an N or an addict or a controlling abuser....

The snake could ask that question, an abused spouse could ask that question.... the child of an N could ask that question.....  



When I look closer.... ::getting out magnifying glass::.......

I guess the real problem isn't realizing that N's/abusers aren't ever going to change.  

 Nope nope nope.... though that's one moving part involved, to be sure but.....

It's coming to grips with the inevitable response we'll have to deal with if we buck the system of any abusive person.

If we come to the place where we can no longer tolerate living like that,  no matter the cost.

We can do something small or nothing at all and bring wrath down on our heads.....  what's  a total muntiny going to bring?  


I think sinking into an unresponsive dysphoria is a very natural response to dealing with aggresive offensive cruel demeaning irrational people in our lives.

Standing up to an intense unrelenting response might be what we feel we have to do IF we DO deal with the facts....

so it's a very hard march to that firing line.... facing the facts and shooting hope dead.  Damn hard march.  I know it is.    

Is that THE terrible realization?

WHat comes next?  

That's it, isn't it?  It's what comes after we acknowledge and accept the truth... what it sets in motion.  

Almost every human on the earth has a phobic response to human on human aggression.  

It's hardwired into our systems.  

No wonder it's so difficult to come to terms with the reality of irrational controlling people.  It's unbearble to live that way and  even harder to buck it. ACK!

Hmmmm...... challenging amoral abusive authority..... that's not something anyone wants to contemplate.... so they don't do it lightly and they don't do it bc they want to either.  

They do it bc they HAVE to.    


It's even less about giving up the hope of a dream than I thought, though that's one of the consistently larger moving parts involved, to be sure.    

The controlling people may be disordered in their thinking.... but they're strong minded about what they do and what they feel entitled to.  Talk about a strong offensive campaign to be reckoned with!  They have no problem lying, cheating, stealing or using some truths and all our weaknesses to keep us confused while beating us over the head for being confused!  

Living with controlling people drains the strongest among us.  That harldy leaves anyone in a position to feel good about initiating what may be the most difficult challenge of their lifetime.  

Esp if their FOO is a nightmare, only adding to the abuse if called apon for help.  

THe strong minded dominate the weak minded....

until something gives.

Facing it feels worse than uncomfortable.... it's a death, many deaths and worse even than death bc it doesn't end easily.  

I don't think it's about healing so much as it is about finally reaching that place where we can't live with ourselves under the current status quo.

It's lining up many moving parts and that's hard bc I don't think we can even see them all at once, even if we try.... just too big... too many of them.    

We must find ourselves faced with a compelling Moral imperative, yup yup yup.



::sigh::  This has been a running commentary that didn't necessarily have any point but.....


Ok... ok.......  

ANGER!  

::nod::

I think maybe that's the point.  

Anger must be one of the important moving parts... right?

Very important stuff.... getting in touch with appropriate anger is difficult to do when we doubt our realities.
 
Even harder for those who've been raised to think of anger as taboo... for those who aren't clear about what they think, they're too busy surviving, walking on eggshells and trying not to lose ground.

Anger helps difine us... individuate us and it gives us energy to get ourselves out of harm's way.  

The energy to face what's to come.


If we're dysphoric.... that's us turning our anger inward?  

Instead of outward at what's causing it?  

We disconnect and refuse to partipate bc we can't pretend any longer.

 Ahhhh.... the death of pretending.  

I remember it well.  

So.... becoming silent and depressed and unresponsive..... that's what comes when the anger can't make it's way out through some healthier channel?

So.... what next?

There's so many phases and pieces that have to fall into place... and there's no specific order.... so many moving parts to keep track of and tend to.  

So... until things become clear... until the moral imperative rears it's head..... In the meantime.....

one can go through the mental excercise of thinking ahead, getting paperwork in order, gathering information one may need at a later date and, amazingly enough.... sometimes this is the thing that can remove a block.  

It's not refusing to face things so much as it's sidestepping a head on confrontation....... it's preparation for treason.

Some kind of empowering movement forward, in any case.  


Dealing with hard facts and pieces of paper that don't jump sideways, lie or talk back.  Whew!  How refreshing.  


It's certainly practice for the real rebellion, if it ever comes.

Sort of babystepping, really.  

A covert gathering of strength..... covert rebellion.... putting future leverage in place.... covertly.  

Did I mention the word, 'covert?'

Like Sun did beautifully with 6 children and her husband waiving a gun about.  

Ya ya... like that.

Sort'a like doing homework.... I bet Ami was a very good student.  

I also think that we don't need to face or deal with truly physically abusive people, the system should stand as buffer in those cases.

There are legal avenues of gaining distance, such as the are. they're there.  

Sometimes...... it's hard to tell when you can fight something yourself.  

Hard to determine if there's room for negotiating your human rights, or not.

Do you think most people can tell if they're dealing with someone who's not going to budge an inch.... always going to be an abusive toxic waste of skin?  (Rhetorical or not)  


BTW... I think everyone does lose it and screams at times.... though I haven't wanted to kill my children at any time, up to this point. 

They're still very small though

[Hopalong]

I vote for the Don't F*** With Me Again, EVER glint in the eye and body language that could never possibly be confused with submission

And if anything comes at us past those sane boundaries...even ONCE...

It's face the paper time. Safety deposit box in a new bank time. Just as Lighter describes.

imo.

Hops

[alone48]

Ami,

I am going through a law suit at my previous job where there was retaliation for a stand that myself and another coworker took. The attorney was appalled that I didn't think somethings were abuse. Like you said, you get so use to it, it becomes the norm. We have spoken to several differnt people (professionals) during this process and everyone but me seemed to see the problems. After they made me award, I began to realize this had gone on for quite awhile my coworker had just finally made me aware.

So you are not alone, if you don't feel right about it then I would venture to guess something is wrong. Your instincts seem to be pretty right on to me.

[Lupita]

Dear Ami, I have the eimpression that you do not work outside home. Is there  reason for that? OMG, you have a masters degree!!!!
Why do you like to stay home?
And this is only if I am right. I might be wrong. I have never seen you talk about your job, so i assume that you do not work outside home.
I would die if I had to stay home. Making your own money gives you pride. I was a homemaker for three years when I married in 1983. An N. It was a nightmare. He thought that becuase he was the provider he had to be first in everything. And I thought it was correct. And I was in my country and I was a DOCTOR. And concert pianist. When we went shopping he spent a lot of time in his stores and when it was about mine he did not wait at all. I had to go on my own.

It took me three years to understand that if I did not have to ask him for money he would be nicer to me.

Why did I stay home those three years? I have never been lazy!!!!! NEVER!!!!!!!

So, after three years I started giving piano lessons at my house with my baby in the playpen, then got a job in a school and my bay came with me to school and later he went to day care.

I hope I am not saying anything offensive to you. I really appreciate you and love you.

I feel that you are right. We do not understand the difference. I see many posts that you agree with people and in another posts you agree with something that is different. As if you were trying to agree with everybody.

Please, do not get mad at me if I am not giving you what you need. I am trying. But if you do not like it just disregard it.

I am so much like you.  I identify almost with almost everything you have said.

[Ami]

Thank you so much for responding to this thread.
Thank you Alone .  I always appreciate your kindness..
Thank you Gabben for your uplifting words.
Besee--I agree with Hops. The more that I heal, the more I agree with Hops. We have to have a boundary that is firm. I see it embodied in  the saying,"Talk softly,but carry a big stick.'
 I did not read the inner bonding articles,but from my reading, you have to HONOR the inner child. Taking any form of abuse is NOT honoring it.
  In fact, my H started "his thing" the other night at about 5 PM. I had a stomach ache all night and All the next day UNTIL I stood up.Then,it went away. To me, my inner child is in the stomach(gut). If I do not honor my inner child, my stomach will hurt.
  Before I got on the board,I could hardly eat. I had so dishonored my inner child. So,my guess is that you may have misinterpreted the articles. Margaret  Paul seems like she really stands up for herself,IMO.
  Lupita--you can insult me anytime( lol). Lupita, you  are so sweet and gentle that I take what you say in that spirit.
  I have worked in my marriage.I have had wonderful jobs. However,nothing on the outside has ever healed my core--no job, man, ,appearance, possession, accomplishment   etc. Nothing ever touched that raw ,painful place inside me and healed it---until I found the board and all of you. Inner strength is a quality that exists apart from any outside endeavor(IMO) .This is not a political statement ,but look at Bill Clinton. He has had everything and it was never enough.
 I know many very accomplished people with deep emotional pain that the accomplishments never "touched'.I have one friend(20 yrs) who was a dentist and a doctor who had to get a mental disability and leave work.
  Then my cop b/f had no education and  thought that he was "great".He loved himself from the inside. He could be in anyone's presence and never feel "less than" no matter HOW accomplished the other person was. It is all an inside job,Lupita.
.So, the outside can be good IF the inside is healed. Then,you  have both.
I have 'been there  and done that" on most things.
   Love to you  Ami

[Lupita]

Ami, why are you working on an abusive relationship?

I know, I know, who am I to ask that, I have been a victim my self all my life. Still, you might want to answer me.

I asked you, if you worked outside home. You said i am wroking on my marriage.

If you think that I am a blind trying to help another blind you might be totally right. Still, would you answer me?

Then you can ask me why do I beg for love in everysingle person I meet and they get away from me. I know the reason, then you can ask me why I do not stop. I cant stop clinging to people. YET!!!!!!! I will try, tomorrow perhaps.

Can you answer me my question? or Could you? is there a reason?

If you do not want or dislike my question just disregard. Thank you. And love you.
Your sister.

[Ami]

Lupita--You are so sweet.I wish that I could hug you.
 My marriage..... I think that I can let it go,now. If my H does anything physically,I will call the police. I am ready to let it go ..It took me getting the degree of self that I now have(however small) to get  to  this point.
  I stayed  with my H b/c I was not whole enough to be any better without him--if you know what I mean.IOW,I was so shattered inside that I needed to rebuild before my life would be better without him.
Now,I am at a better point . My insides are more whole.
I don't know what I will do with my marriage.My first goal is to rebuild my insides. Then,I will worry about  my marriage(unless there is abuse, then I will call the police)
 What good would it do me to go through all the trouble of a divorce if I were still in my own "prison".? That is how I see it, anyway. Also, Lord help me--I don't want to repeat.                Love  Ami

[Ami]

Dear Lighter,
  I have to say s/thing to you. You have a really good point about  a snake being a snake. Wow--- a snake is a snake.
   I looked at my H and I SAW it . I looked at him and I didn't have to lie. It saw it.
   I didn't have to protect myself, which was a big part of what I was doing.I was protecting myself b/c I could not face that I could be O.K.  IF I saw the truth
  S/thing clicked in to me, today. I had a stomach ache and I was hurting emotionally. I wrote a post to Alone. I told her that current pain can really be "old pain"
 Then,I realized that my stomach ache was about abandoning myself when I was 14. The cure to my stomach ache(gut,core) was loving myself. I realized that I COULD love myself. Then,it went away.
    Dorothy could always "go home"----Wow.  Thanks ,Lighter--a lot.
                                                                  Ami

[lighter]

I disagree with your theory, Ami.

Abuse, whether it's physical or emotional, verbal or jerking my children around to control or upset me/you/anyone....

is abuse.


You can draw your line at the physical stuff..... but that's just talk.  That's not standing up and refusing to accept abuse, it's a reason to stay and accept it without having to say....

I, Ami, will accept lots of abuse, all kinds... but I draw the line at the physical stuff cause that makes me feel like I'm doing something."

What I see in that statement is that you won't stop any abuse AT ALL.  You'll just call the cops to stop ONE FORM OF ABUSE and the rest gets a pass cause you're not done taking it.  Don't you know you shouldn't?

At some point, you'll be done and you'll know when it arrives.

Until then, might I suggest you're getting financial docs together?  A credit card in your own name..... use it and pay it off monthly to build your own credit up.  Copy bank statements.  Make a list of expenses and things you see him doing that might be interesting down the road..... like journaling his abusive statements..... maybe tape recording some, marking down what was said at what marker on the tape and dating it.  Maybe even setting the date on the recorder, which aint easy.

When you're doing the above things for yourself.... you'll feel stronger, more capable of requiring better treatment, which you deserve.

It's odd that you put up with the abuse and don't see that it's unnacceptable in every way and absolutely should be something you DO NOT PUT UP WITH FOR ANOTHER MINUTE.

It get's easier to refuse that treatment..... if you're lining your ducks up and laying a good foundation, in case he refuses to treat you with disrespect or abuse. 

You'll want to be prepared..... not confused, broke and at his mercy, right?

He'll have unlimited funds for an attorney and what will you have?

You should at least have credit to float on if you turn around he's cleaned out all the bank accounts and cancelled your credit cards..... had you removed from the house bc he made false statements about your hitting him! 

Don't laugh at that bc I have a doctor's wife telling me her horror tales about that right now! 

She get's what little money he wants to give to her and she can't take her children out for lunch she has so little money. 

So...... line things up.  You can't insist on better treatment if you have no resources and can't back up ultimatums, KWIM?

And..... I think your putting up with any abuse is crap.

You shouldn't have to sit unresponsive in your own home and take abuse for feeling voiceless and dysphoric cause your trapped.

DO something positive.... you don't have to deliver ultimatums NOW. 

You can line up those ducks..... think about your lines in the sand.... the REAL ONES you'll enforce, come hell or high water and be prepared for it when you're core is ready.

Happy Thanksgiving, Ami.

See you when I get back from out of town: )