My Aunt

[Ami]

You and I will have to disagree here, Hops.
IF  someone else sees an  inappropriate  action and calls it by it's name(nastiness, bullying) WHY is THAT person WRONG?                     Ami



I KNOW that you value integrity--Hops. This is integrity--- that is how I see it.

[Hopalong]

I believe you, Ami.
I don't think there's anything wrong with calling something inappropriate that you believe is.

There's a line between neutrally saying, I think that's inappropriate, and saying
YOU are a bully.

It's like the difference between those I statements and You statements.

One owns your own opinions and feelings, the other labels another person as bad.

So, and I'm not remembering the exact train of dialogue, but instead of:

Lighter: blunt frustrated post about this and that, challenging you, describing your pattern as she sees it
Bill: Lighter, you are a bully, bad person, with bad intent
Ami: And you're a woman

maybe it could work better this way:

Lighter: Less blunt, sensitive and diplomatic post that challenges you and describes your pattern as she sees it
Bill: silence
Ami: ? (free to consider what Lighter was trying to give you, w/o distraction)

I may not be analysing all this very well and it may not be helpful but I hope it is

And if we need to disagree that's okay too. There's room for that w/o heat.

Must go to work...
xo
Hops
PS--I think the debate about Lighter and Jac is a tangent that got throw in to blow smoke--not related, imo, so in her very latest posts, she sounds hurt about that to me...so her tone's amped up

Okay, now I will try to mind my own business
while still opining about everything 

[Ami]

Hops,
 Lighter was asking ME what  the problem was with Jac.  That can be a problem when you try to intrude on someone else's space in an inappropriate way.You GET the answer and you don't like it very much.                             Ami

[Hopalong]

Hmmm.

In my past, inappropriate was often a shaming word. Or I used to respond to it that way.

Another thing I observe in myself is when I get lastworditis the only cure is for me to let go.
(For me, lastworditis signals insecurity about not being understood, or being disliked. Letting go feels good in that sense. Letting it all be okay, whether there's perfect understanding or not...)

Hope this all has helped in some way, visible now or not.

Hops

[mudpuppy]

Fools rush in, so here goes,

I believe I have a very good relationship with both Ami and Lighter (at least until this post). I think I understand both points of view.
My only suggestion, and it is one I try to adhere to myself, is for those of us not raised by Ns to be very circumspect in our criticism or advice to those who were.
 Encountering an N as an adult does not necessarily give us the ability to know what it is like to have been raised by one or the long term and persistent effort it takes to recover from it.
 And even someone raised by an N should be careful in the application of 'tough love'. Not everyone heals at the same pace or in the way we might like and some people don't heal at all.

Lighter, on the one hand you are concerned that Ami has made little or no progress and on the other you say you have been posting frank responses to her since June or July. Since they have apparently not helped her progress any perhaps you might reconsider their value in her particular case?


mud

[wiltay]

Hops, you are projecting your own emotions onto me again, but that's ok.   I've never baited anyone here ONCE, not yet, but that may change.  Flame wars are flame wars after all.   Obviously none of you have been on male boards before.   All this crap being thrown at Ami "for her own good" does nothing but make her defensive and upset.  I liken what Lighter does with Ami akin to criticizing a stutterer for stuttering.  What brilliant, razor sharp insight!  How helpful!!  All Lighter does is unearth Ami's 'symptoms' and throw them back in her face.  She doesn't have a clue about what Ami is going through, not the smallest and not one thing she says is the least bit helpful to Ami, regardless of what she claims her intentions are.    And it is truly amazing some of the things she projects onto Ami that don't have the slightest thing to do with Ami, but are entirely Lighter's issues.  She has been politely asked to cease and desist many times but keeps going and going like the energizer bunny.  I have not been so polite with her and I am feeling even less so by the minute.  The Cheney/Rumsfeld stuff is typical of her abrasive style and is pure flame war material. 

Izzy, I read you as a 'mean drunk.'  If that's true, I hope you find a way to get sober, if it's not true, my apologies for reading you wrong, but that just makes us even.  In either event you still owe me an apology.

Bill

[Ami]

Thank you Bill and Mud                                       Ami

[kelly overcomer]

Ami:  SInce you started the thread I will address this post to you.  Imagine I have been so busy moving out of my old house (finished yesterday...yes, back to the chiro today.)  FINALLY.....time to get caught up on the board.  Ami's post about her aunt was nice but I got behind so didn't even read anymore.  So I read the whole thing yesterday.  Start to finish.  I did not ride the roller coaster of emotion AT ALL.  So that is why I thought it was kinda funny.  I saw this nice thread about Ami's aunt and how SHE is normal but her sister (Ami's awful N mom) is not.  Then it takes a turn and there are slams back and forth.  You have to admit if you were not involved it was a bit funny.

Bill.  Ami and I are dear friends.  I don't think she took my post wrong.  In fact, she and I had a chuckle about my post.  But I appreciate you trying to stick up for Ami.  I want Ami to get over all her crap, too.  But I have been playing this get better game diligently for six years and it still rears it's ugly head periodically.  I remember in the first few months of my realization that my mom was truly Narcissistic and that she was more concerned for anybody and everybody but me...........I lay in bed in a deep depression for months.  I cried.  I yelled and screamed at her.  It was awful!!!  And then I was labelled as unstable.  So everyone thought I was the problem for a very long time.  But I kept digging and did a bunch of research and I know now that I am NOT the problem.

I hate bullying, too.  But I also am a very blunt person (learned behaviour........I finally am not afraid.....) and when I see it in another person it doesn't take me aback.  I am sure it does others, however.

I'll take advise from everyone one of you.....even tough love.  Ami, on the other hand, needs a little more understanding as she is going through these very hurtful stages of uncovering her core (as she puts it....)  She is doing inner child stuff.  That stuff sucks!!  It is a lot to go through.....

Much love to all of you.  Ami.  Hops.  Lighter.  Izzy.  Bill.  Mud.  CHanging.....Leah....who am I forgetting............all of you!!!
'

[isittoolate]

Izzy, I read you as a 'mean drunk.'  If that's true, I hope you find a way to get sober, if it's not true, my apologies for reading you wrong, but that just makes us even.  In either event you still owe me an apology.

Bill

if it's not true, my apologies for reading you wrong

In either event you still owe me an apology

For what? a silly little verse implying the blood isn't getting thru to your brain?

[Ami]

Izzy,
  When I made a comment about "sitting in a dark room "in a chair:" you were very offended, even though it had no bearing on you.
  I think that your comment WAS directed to Bill.I am sure that you would not like a similar one directed to you .                         Ami

[wiltay]

Izzy, I don't care enough about your opinion to argue with you.  Cheers!

[Overcomer]

I love ya Izzy.........you have a comedian bone too!!

[Gabben]

There is a wonderful old saying, maybe it is a proverb .... "there are none so blind as those who will not see"

There is also another wonderful old saying..."those without sin cast the first stone." This comes from the Gospel.

[lighter]

There is also another wonderful old saying..."those without sin cast the first stone." This comes from the Gospel.

Gabben... is God good with the second and third stones?    

Leah.... I'm resonating with you lately.
The thread on THE EMPORORS NEW CLOTHES really has impacted the last two days of my life.  Remaining focused and in the moment is a wonderful thing. Thanks to you and Shunned for that reminder.

Hops.... your example of positive communication was spot on.  I always learn something from your posts, even if it's a reminder of something I already know.  Thanks.

Mud... If you read any ambiguity in my last post, let me clear it up.

 Ami's free to continue her quest for lint, without further suggestions from me.   

If I take the time to venture any advice.. it'll be for someone who's open to hearing it.

Izz... do you suppose Bill sees the irony involved in making accusations....

then turning around and making accusations? 

I just love his little Cheney accent, lol; )



 

[wiltay]

 Ami's free to continue her quest for lint, without further suggestions from me.   

If I take the time to venture any advice.. it'll be for someone who's open to hearing it.

Lighter, you DO have a sense of humor!  I'll believe this when I see it!  Whenever have you ever been able to restrain yourself?  It will be a first.

zz... do you suppose Bill sees the irony involved in making accusations....

then turning around and making accusations? 

This really makes me question your sobriety even more Lighter.  Is this your famous 'clarity?'  Are you accusing me of accusing my own accusations?? I think both you and Izzy are hitting the sauce too much.

I just love his little Cheney accent, lol; )

Totally incomprehensible.  Just a clueless Brit I guess.