AA Thread

[gratitude28]

Hi Guys,
Enough of us are part of the great group of AA, that I thought for us it might be nice to have a thread here. One issue I wanted to bring up was the fact that I figured out my mother had NPD AFTER I got sober, and I think, for me, this was important - so that I never used it as a crutch. I do believe things happen the way they are supposed to and getting sober - and realizing no one was going to ever "save" me was very important to my being able to accept my past and figure out how to pick up and go on.
As you said, Lise, AA teaches you how to deal with people all the time and in all situations. It has definitely helped me with dealing with my family, as has this board.
Anyone else have insights or stories?
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

Izzy,
Yes, you can see people change when they are going to - they start talking less about themselves and more about how they can help others. They also start to listen. Some never get past the "I" stage, though. Like you said, they aren't able to ask for help. You really have to humble yourself to accept the program, and I don't think an N can ever do that. They will always see others as "beneath" them. I have seen people who would be considered less far up on the social ladder than I, but who were a lot better people. When I realized that I was no better than others, I was able to be helped.
(((((((Izzy))))))
Love, Beth

p.s. I wonder if he took you to show you he was better than them???? What did he want out of taking you if he hadn't accepted the program?

[Gabben]

Hi Beth,

Thank you for this thread - great idea. Beth, I am just now, in the last 6 months, waking up to my mom's NPD. I have been in AA for over twenty years -LOL...oh well,  it takes what it takes, right?  

Here is a wonderful reading about humilty, which in AA, and any spiritually for that matter, is taught as the most precious virtue to pocess and work for -- I have a long ways to go - LOL but it is all about progress, right?


Violence, after all, is nothing more than a fear of    
love. And when you fear love, where do you turn?    
You turn to pride-the pride of your own self-de-    
fense.    
   
There's a great secret here that philosophers have    
known for ages. And it's a secret only because it's so    
obvious that no one bothers to notice it.    
Consider the nature of water, a weak and lowly sub-    
stance that flows freely around all obstacles. If you    
live a life of the same "humility" as water, even the    
jaws of hell cannot bite into you. But the more solid    
you become in the pride of your own strength to    
avenge yourself against insult, the more those jaws    
have to grasp onto-and once they have you, then    
you can't fightfree, no matter how many bandoliers    
you have draped over your shoulders.    

So the more you let go of your "identity the more    
you "die" to yourself in perfect humility-the less    
you have to defend; and the less you have to de-    
fend, the less reason you have for anger.    

Thanks again,
Lise

    

[Gabben]

Yes, you can see people change when they are going to - they start talking less about themselves and more about how they can help others.

Last night, a friend of mine in AA, told me about his sponsor's experience with the IRS. For the last twenty years his sponsor had been sending small monthly checks to the IRS with a letter of amends. Just last month he received a phone call from a higher up at the IRS. This "IRS high up" told him that he was looking at all of the amends letters and wanted to ask him about his work in carrying the message to others; he asked him if for the last twenty years he has devoted his life to helping other drunks. The AA guy told him all of his story and they ended up have a warm and friendly conversation which ended by the IRS guy telling the sponsor that he was too friend of Bill W and that the  IRS was going to forgive his debt completely and wipe him out of the system - his debt at that time was still over $70,000. The IRS guy told him that after twenty years of service to helping other drunks he had paid his debt to society and then some -- Another miracle.

AA says that self-less helping others is the key -  I know it helps me to unhardwire the self centered thinking in my brain.

Lise

[Gabben]

p.s. I wonder if he took you to show you he was better than them???? What did he want out of taking you if he hadn't accepted the program?

I was going to Al-anon and some people crossed over from one to the other. I said something at my meeting that was repeated and got back to him at AA. We had a terrible row, but I had no idea how this happened.

I do remember about loving with detachment and after 5 months sober, he fell of the wagon. (I could almost see it it coming as he was full of pent up rage from these 5 months.) What I said at Al=Anon was. "He fell off the wagon...." then went on to talk about how I felt and how I handled it.....
Then someone approached him at his Home AA and said,"I hear your sober date has changed".

I was just as angry as he and attended Al-Anon only until I found out who I thought it was who ratted on me--but then maybe it was no one..... The N kept me close to him, now that he had got me to quit Al-Anon.

After I found out he was an N, and I learned more---this could all have been sabotage on his part.

Izzy

Hi Izzy,

In the opening reading at most AA mtgs and other 12 step groups of "How it Works" it discusses your ex-N:

Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.

There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Hope this adds some insight

Lise

[Gabben]

One issue I wanted to bring up was the fact that I figured out my mother had NPD AFTER I got sober, and I think, for me, this was important - so that I never used it as a crutch.

Hi Beth,

This has caused me reflection today. Do you mean that you never scapegoated your mom for your adult problems?

I know that I fall into "holes" so to speak where I realize that I am still repeating patterns and still acting out the drama of my childhood. (Some of us have had more drama and pain). However, because of AA I can't or I have to try to not let my childhood be the excuse for what my part was or why I acted the way I did. I will mention my overreaction to others such as strong emotions that I may have expressed that are out of proportion to the experience  but only as a way of clarifying why or explaining my reaction to help bring a sense of light to the darkness. I do my best to take full responsibility for me and my actions in the present - it is freeing.

Here is another way to put it:

My childhood was really bad, I knew that my mom was mentally ill long before I even turned 18. I hit a ACA bottom long before I ever hit my drinking bottom. But even when I fall into a "hole" I am responsible for getting myself out - no one else is going to do it for me. I personally can't say words like never.  I learned a long time ago that never is a word that does not fit in my vocabulary very truthfully.


Peace,
Lise

[gratitude28]

Lise,
I am surprised I used never in that sentence (I had to reread it to see it - lol). I try to keep always and never out of my vocabulary. Now that you mention it, it is strange I say that.
I was a very unhappy and angry young adult. I knew I didn't like my parents, but didn't know why. I guess I think that knowing my mother didn't love me or care for me might have been what I would have "used" to keep drinking - to justify it. I don't know. I can hope that I would have been as dedicated to becoming a useful person and a person dedicated to her own family. But you know the mind is never clear with booze swirling around. It has taken me a lot of time to sort and decide what is good and bad in my life (and it's an ongoing process).
How about you?
Alcohol was a given in my family - the cure for all ills and the life of the party. It also killed my grandmother. I thought it was essential to adult life... Amazing how untrue that is.
I am just about 4 years sober now. I cannot go back. It would be the end of me. Forunately, my HP also took the crazy desire away from me, so just the thought of a drink spirals in my mind to the wreckage and the hole I would be unable to climb out of. Gosh, these are some convoluted sentences. Sorry about that. I am not usually so garbled.
I'd love to hear more about you - your family, your travels to get here.
Love, Beth

[axa]

Dear Beth,

Just dipping in and wanted to say I admire and respect you for living the AA programme.  I am always grateful that I am not alcoholic, lots of drinking problems in generations of my family.  I rarely drink anymore myself which suits my life, just want to say well done and thank you for your support over my time here.

Axa

[Gabben]

Lise,
I am surprised I used never in that sentence (I had to reread it to see it - lol). I try to keep always and never out of my vocabulary. Now that you mention it, it is strange I say that.

Yeah, I know what you  mean...I did not mean to point that out to make you feel bad or anything I knew what you were saying when you posted it. About working to "never" blame our parents -- It is hard when we have emotional baggage

It has taken me a lot of time to sort and decide what is good and bad in my life (and it's an ongoing process).

Me too. It is an ongoing process and one that I'm told will last a life time...thank heavens I don't have to be perfect by a certain date or anything...LOL

I am just about 4 years sober now.

Beth  -- you sound amazingly healthy for 4 years, grounded, strong and honest. But it is really is not about time, is it? I mean Bill Wilson had his spiritual awakening and was off helping others before he even had 6 months. We are just one drink away from our next drunk too.

How are you doing on the emotional housecleaning stuff?

Thanks,
Lise

[gratitude28]

(((((((((((Sweet Axa)))))))))))))
Thank you!! I always look forward to seeing you here.

Lise,
Right before I figured out about my mother, I was trying desperately to make amends with her. I was apologizing for all the horrible things she said I did/was (Gosh, if only all of us could have such horrible kids, I now realize). She was eating it up. I apologized to my sister, and we have made living amends. The people I hurt most with my drinking were my husband (who has been a dream in dealing with it all. He is grateful that I got help, for me, and for our family. He went through this as a child with his father, and I feel bad for having put him through it again).
I have a huge problem with trying to love my mother or want good for her. I vacillate between disgust and indifference with her. But I am careful about letting myself get angry. I know it will not help me.
I have a question about sponsors. I have had two. The first was a wonderful woman - in the sense that she draws people into the program and tries to help many. But one on one, she was imaptient with me. I had a lot of questions and she didn't really want to talk - just gave a blanket answer (pray, call me). I didn't do so well with that. I really wanted someone to help me understand. I chose another, who was a flaming N and literally dumped me, as I wasn't following her directions to the T. I know I should have tried again, but the group is small, and I didn't feel anyone else was well-grounded. Have you found, too, that many, even after a long time, don't yet seem to see the bigger picture of life? I function well within the group and outside of the group. I see AA also as a tool to help with dealing with life, not just a replacement for alcohol.
More to add, but need to get to work.
Love, Beth

[Gabben]

I have a huge problem with trying to love my mother or want good for her. I vacillate between disgust and indifference with her. But I am careful about letting myself get angry. I know it will not help me.

Oh Beth - can I relate! I vacillate too between disgust and indifference. It is really hard for me to deal with my mom because she plays the poor me no loves me routine -- this leaves me with heavy guilt for not being a good daughter, as she always tells me.

It was my anger issues that brought me to this board. Last Spring I broke out in a rash of resentments. It was so confusing to me because I used to rarely get them. I knew how to accept responsibility for my behavior and admit when I had been selfish with people and placed myself in a postion to be hurt. However, this time the resentments would not go away, like bad weeds I'd pull them and the next morning they were back again. I then read a book about repressed anger and it listed resentments as a symptom of repressed anger. 

I had been telling my sponsor but she just kept telling me to inventory them out and pray for the people that I was angry at. It was not even making a dent.  I had always had a T, so it just seemed normal to start develing deeper again into childhood with my T. 6 months later - hardly any dissociated resentments! Yippie!

I've worked through so much hurt and anger, tears and raw pain over the last few months -- rarely do people in AA address their emotional issues, but I found that if you want to continue to grow spiritually then you have to clean house emotionally because God is not of the nature of anger...or guilt, so I have to work to rid myself of this stuff in order to stay close to Him.

I have a question about sponsors. I have had two. The first was a wonderful woman - in the sense that she draws people into the program and tries to help many. But one on one, she was impatient with me. I had a lot of questions and she didn't really want to talk - just gave a blanket answer (pray, call me). I didn't do so well with that. I really wanted someone to help me understand. I chose another, who was a flaming N and literally dumped me, as I wasn't following her directions to the T. I know I should have tried again, but the group is small, and I didn't feel anyone else was well-grounded. Have you found, too, that many, even after a long time, don't yet seem to see the bigger picture of life? I function well within the group and outside of the group. I see AA also as a tool to help with dealing with life, not just a replacement for alcohol.
More to add, but need to get to work.
Love, Beth

Yes, Beth -- I have struggled with sponsors over the years too. Recall, that "no human power can relieve our alcoholism." In the end the sponsor is only there to take you through the steps and see you take someone else through, by then you should not really need them, but we do need support. 

The big book was supposed to act as a sponsor, did you know that?

My sponsor is my firend and she calls ME for support now, funny huh..I tell myself if I just trust God he always points me in the right direction.

I have a spiritual adviser who understands the steps, he is a psychologist and is of my faith background. I meet with him once every two weeks and get really honest.

He is the one that wrote the Victim Anger stuff.

My suggestion is always to follow the book...I always tell my sponsees that there are many opinions and people will steer you in the wrong direction -- the "softer easier way", if you know what I mean. The book is grounded in fact and will always have an answer, and that is a promise!

Hope that you are well?

Lise

[BonesMS]

Wanted to bump this to the top.  I hope anyone with firsthand knowledge on this will reply.  I'm a novice on the subject of addiction outside of being co-dependent.  I'd like to see if there is a correlation between co-dependent behaviors mocking narcissism and substance abuse mocking addiction.  I don't think this has ever been discussed on the board before.

tt

There is a distinction, within the DSM, between substance abuse and substance dependence.  Substance dependence is equivalent to addiction. Individuals who have active addictions often behave like Narcissists.  Co-dependents, who are as sick as their family members with addictions, also can behave narcissistically.

Bones

[Bella_French]

Hi TT,

I think the real distinction between Narcissim and `coping' via Drugs is the desire to be cruel. NPD sufferers are cruel, and they feed off it. People who love and/or depend on them become hurt and may turn to drugs or magical thinking in order to cope. The two may appear similar, but are worlds apart IMHO.

NPD is defined by cruelty. Addiction is defined more by pain relief. Thats how I have come to see it, anyway.

X Bella

[gratitude28]

TT,
I am not sure what you meant by how large a part alcoholism plays in the posts. I am sorry - could you put it into layman's terms for me? Also, I do not feel you hijacked the thread at all. As I have said, as long as a thread is being useful, I feel it can go any direction. I wanted to get back to you on this, but needed a breather - and I've been a bit busy.
The other day, I was telling my husband I felt awful about the time when I was the worst - about being a drunk. He said, "But you were never mean." Well, I may not have been mean, but I was wholly selfish (the addiction was my main focus for much of the time). So, I guess that is where we differ from Ns... we are focused on the addiction, but not cruel in our focus. We are trying to feed the beast. I think Bella got it right when she said we are using it to help with the pain. I was shocked when someone said that in a meeting and I realized it was so true. I was hiding. And, as we have also said here, I wanted the instant high. When I get restless now, it is because I am still (after almost four years) learning how to live without that instant fix.
So, tt, please, if you can, let me know what your question is, because I am sure it is important.
Love, Beth

[gratitude28]

Just to add one more note, in a sense, my alcoholism plays a very small part in my life now. Thanks to my HP, I have no desire for alcohol and I live in normal society. I do need to give more back to the program and I plan to. I try to give here on this board, but I know that is not enough. I feel that as my kids get older, I will have more time and I will be able to devote more to work with other alcoholics then.
Love, Beth