Reality check

[Lupita]

Dear CH, I disagree, but will not discuss with you. I do not want to convence you either. God bless you and thank you so much for your opinion. Plus my opinion has nothing to do with you, so please, do not take it personally. It is just my opinion. Forgive me please if my way of thinking bothers you. I hope that we can respectfully disagree. God bless you.

I general, this is a time of stress for economy. Families cannot make it with one salary. It is healthier to have two salaries. It is healthier that both cooperate and contribute to the income. Unless of course that one of them makes a wonderful salary. But not for low middle class like me or others like me. With one check I pay rent with the other, food and car and utilities. if I had to feed another adult, i would suicide. I am talking about low middle class who need to make two salaries for the best interest of the children, not having one comfortably at home while they have to sacrifice so much, but just if they could double the income by two people working they can be doing better.

In my case, if I had somebody to share expenses it would be very relaxing and better. I would want that my son has that. If not possible, there is nothing I can do, just cook my self in my own sauce.

At the end, he is the one who is going to pay the bills, OMG, and the one who will say in ten years, I have nothing to talk about with her.

[Lupita]

CH, thank you for your response. Thank you for not getting ungry with me because of the way I feel. Thank you so much. I respect your point and I love friends that do not hate me for the way I feel.
Thank you again for your freindly response and God bless you.

[Certain Hope]

aww (((((((((((Lupita))))))))))) thank you!!  You have really made me smile big   

Because you are willing to express these thoughts and feelings with no holds barred, I have been able to feel them through for myself, you know - to the other side - where they no longer hold so much power over me. You've taught me alot, Lupita, and I am very grateful to you. God bless you, too!

Carolyn

[Lupita]

In my situation I cannot feed clothe and roof another adult. Impossible. If somebody wants to live with me, has to cooperate 50-50 with the expenses. The same way, I do not desire that any man has to suffer the opposite way.

I still believe that it is healthy for any woman to go out and have a job, make money and contribute to the house economy to be a team. I still believe that it is bad for a woman to have too much time in her hands to be in the internet at all hours of the day or using credit cards that somebody else has to pay.

I would hate that my son comes tired from all day outside home and the woman starts nagging, I am bored, I need to go out, take me out, take me to a restaurant, etc.

I come very tired from the high school, with papers to grade, worries, nasty coworkers, and if I had somebody to nag me with "take me out" I would slap him or her.

My paycheck is barely making it just to pay rent and utilities, modest supermarket, consinment stores. Can you imagine if I had an adult to live with me and who chooses to stay home, and I have to pay health insurance for him her, when I cannot even go to the dentist because i cannot afford to go to the dentist?

I do not deisre that situation for a man either. I do not desire that situation for my son either.

Sometimes I go to the gym if I had the energy, or to dance lessons. I would be very sad if somebody asked me, do not go, stay here with me and entertain me.

Anyway, this is just my personal experience, my feelings. Just the way I feel.

Do not get mad at me for the way I feel. I am a product of my experiences, and there is some truth on what I say.

Like they say, dont hate me for being pretty, dont hate me for the way I feel.

[Certain Hope]

In my situation I cannot feed clothe and roof another adult. Impossible. If somebody wants to live with me, has to cooperate 50-50 with the expenses. The same way, I do not desire that any man has to suffer the opposite way.

Dear Lupita,

When I remarried immediately after NPD-ex, I took the same approach with my new husband.
He is a product of his experiences, too, and had alot of the tendancies which you've described in the lazy wife.
Basically, he'd never had much responsibility or motivation... and he's grown alot in the three years we've been married.
He's grown because he had no other option.... that is reality.

On the other hand, I have always been the "responsible one". I did it out of fear... worked my fanny off... always consumed
with trying to do "the right thing". Even when I was not providing a share of 
income into my family's budget, I know that my contribution was at least
as valuable as any paycheck. That is a confidence I have within myself because I know that I work so hard at whatever I do.
And... I know that a person can make a good income and simply fritter it away out of poor management and unwillingness to curb his appetites.
Poor impulse control... now there's a character flaw!

Anyhow, I just think that alot of people are irresponsible when they're young. It's a willingness to grow and mature which makes all the difference...
a teachable spirit. I am so thankful (and relieved!!) that my husband has that,
along with a strong desire to make the relationship work and not enjoy a free ride.


All of the things that you've written here... I will share with my son, from my heart.
Well, he's only 12 years old now, but he knows... he knows my heart.
I bet that your son does, too.
There is no talking sense to a lovestruck heart, so the time to convey all this info is beforehand...
and I'm sure that you have done that.
He will not forget all that he's learned from you, dear Lupita.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S. Also I agree with what you said about it not being healthy to have too much time on their hands.... for anyone ! Personally, I was feeling the downward pull of that as my energy was being drained out... spending too much time online, etc... and so I went back to work and that was a very good, positive choice for me. But every one of us is on a different schedule, with various contributing factors... and I have to be sure not to make it my mission to pull anyone else alongside my view if they're not ready.
And Lupita... I just thought... best we can do for our sons is to assure them that they do NOT get their value from how much money they make or how many material things they can provide their wives/families! Love to you.

[Lupita]

I understand what you say. If the salary of one is anough, well, there is no case.

I am talking about people like me who barely make it every paycheck. Cannot have another person to feed and support.

I Imagine that Donald Trump GF does not have any need to work. My BF if someday I get one, will have to work and contribute, I cannot feed another adult. Simply cant.

I hope that my son marries a woman who works and contributes to the economy, bringing money to the house is very difficult. Organize that money that other people makes is easier, at least for me. I am good to manage. It is hard to make money. To deal with strangers, eight hours a day, nasty coworkers, students disrespect. It is hard, to go to interviews, to wait for a call from the interviewer, how many times I have read posts from people who are praying for a job, for a call from a job, that is hard. I hope that my son does not have to deal with that alone, because when you know that you are responsible for half it is much much easier than when you know that your only income is all your family has, and your dependants are just waiting for only what you make, you know that all the responsibility is on you. It is hard. I wish that my son does not have to suffer that.

I rest my case.

I do not want to do lastworditis.

[Certain Hope]

lol... Lupita... I wasn't feeling like anybody was trying to get the last word. Mostly, I'm glad that you posted again because I've enjoyed discussing this with you and I hope it's helped you to express these things.  Anyhow, I do understand what you've said and, for the most part,  I'm in agreement with you. No arguments here!

Love to you,

Carolyn

[Lupita]

Lupita, even if you are seeing real stuff in your son's GF--you still can't know how that is going to play out in his life. But you truly believe that you can--and you are making yourself miserable. What is making you think that you can read the future all the way to her cyber affairs in the future? Can you name the emotion that is fueling that? Is it abandonment? Many times in your posts, you comment that this girl treats you as your mother did. If you believe that, are you reacting to her as HERSELF? Or as someone else?

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Where did you get so much wisdom? That is the kind of evidence I am looking for. My distortion is MIND READING AND FORTUNE TELLING. Also BLACK AND WHITE AND ALL OR NOTHING with no shades and grays. CB you are wonderful.

Let's imagine the worst possible scenario: everything you see in this girl is true and everything that you think she is going to do actually happens. If your son can't see that from this vantage point, he is already in deep voodoo. He can't keep running his GF choices past his mommy to see what she thinks. For right or wrong, better or worse, to be a grownup he has to make his own choices. So if he chooses a woman who is obviously an N--you can't stop it, because if you stop this one he will go find another one.


In cognitive therapy you say THE COST OF BENEFIT. What good does it make to me to think this way? It will not help my son and much less my self.

Don't do that, Lupe. Don't miss out on so much joy. Your son will pick who he picks. And he should. Throw yourself into welcoming whomever he picks, with all your heart. If they are going to hit the wall, let them do it on their own account, not because of you.


Ouch, OUCH, OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Although I acknowledge that you are right, you just made me so so sad.  I will do better on New Year. I will tell you about it.

You are right. There is nothing I can do. Just pray and help when needed.  I am so sad. Why do they have to grow up?

Empty nest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I am so sad.---------------------> Emptiness. 

[Lupita]

The feeling CB, is terror. Fear that she will put my son against me, like my SIL and my mother. That I will have zero influence on my son. That my son is going to be taken advantage.

The feelings about my mother is with GFM, not GF. GFM controls the GF totally. GFM is the one that is controlling everything.

OK, again, all or nothing, mind reading and fortune telling.

GFM cannot control everything, she is a huge manipulator, but I have to give credit to my son. That my son is not an idiot. I have to give credit to the job i did with him too. My son is not stupid. He is just pleasing the GFM for convenience and because she is nice to him. She wants her daughter to get married, like her other daughter and like her herself. She considered her husband like a father. I do not want my son to become a father to his wife, patronizing, but equal partner. GFM wants somebody to take care fo her daughter instead of telling the daughter that she can finish college and be independent.

My bad feelings are towards GFM, like she can transplant thoughts from her brain to her daughter barin and my son. Like she can brain wahs my son.

For example, she tells my son, "I trust you, and I know that you are going to take care of My daughter"

Then my son comes and tells me, I have to take care of my GF. She is not his daughter. And many like that.

I wish my son a healthy relationship, no a woman that thinks she is a little child and uncle daddy hasband has to please her.

I want my son to be able to rely in a woman as equal partner.

[Lupita]

I dont want my son to suffer. I dont want him far from me. (emotionally)
Distance geographically, does not matter, convenient yes but not indispensable.

OK, honestly, the fear to lose my son.

The thinking error is "I always lose, and there it comes again"

All or nothing. I do not always lose. I feel like I always lose.

[Hops guest]

Lupita,
Everyone has been so wise and kind.

I don't know if this is a helpful addition, but I would say: ask yourself to think about how your mother constantly told you the worst possible things she could think of about you, how she expressed doubts about everything about you--your character, your loyalty, your accomplishments, your motives, and your good intentions. She nagged and pressured and worried you DAILY with negative interpretations of every single thing about you she could think of, and she laid huge piles of guilt on you all the time for not making her the most important thing in your life. Ask yourself how this made you feel.

If the answer guides you--treat both your son and his GF the opposite way. You will have a grateful son and possibly a daughter. Regardless of what happens in their relationship, if you are loving and positive and approving of both of them as individuals, not as a couple, that is what you will create in your own life as a result:

More love and more positivity, more approval.

(It helps to not get involved at ALL in their marital relationship or problems. Of course they will have some. But it's amazing what you can contribute by simply loving each of them as people, not as generalities.) I have had to repeatedly remind myself to see my D as a young woman, stepping forward in life, not just as "my daughter". I think that possessiveness, forgetting to let her go emotionally, is part of why it was so hard for us to make a transition to her new stage in life. We're making it now, but it was unecessarily hard.

So he's a wonderful young man. You can be glad about what you gave him, and now just respect what he's choosing to give himself. You have no control any more. You just have opportunity -- to love and support him, and whoever he chooses to love.

(If you have to fake it, that's okay. Eventually you'll believe yourself, and it will get easier to accept her.)

Sounds inane, I know. I'm sorry it sounds so simpleminded. But I believe that's how it works. I can't know if any of this be true for you, so please ignore anything that's not helpful.

love,
Hops

[Lupita]

Are you Hopalong?

[Lupita]

I guess it is clicking in my brain. Today, my son brought a friend to my apartment, they needed my computer to watch a DVD from the library, they sat at my living room for three hours, then I made food ofr them. I felt like mother again. I felt I had a place in the world. When things like that happen, I feel not so bad. I was thinking that I need to talk to my son and tell him to not forget me so much so I do not feel abandoned. I do not know if that is going to help. He has to know  that I feel much better when he gives me some time so I feel a mother. He did not do anything special. Just bring his little a*s over to my house and fill in the empty space. It does not have to be all the time, just often enough. It had been a year since he brought a friend to my apartment. I love when he has fun in my house.  I don’t know.

Maybe that GF would go to the Jacuzzi with me, and enjoy the hot water. Maybe they can play tennis with me. I wanted to go ice skating the other night. She said no. I wanted to go on roller coasters another time and she said no.

I guess, it does not matter. She does not have to play with me. I thought that she had to earn my love since I gave birth to my son and raiced him all by my self. I feel so ridiculous. That is not going to happen.

[Lupita]

In my country, you have to honor your moter in low or the boyfrind will not like you. You can fight later, but never as a girlfriend. Here, the mother in low means nothing. You show your mother in low your power and if she does not discipline you can punihs her not letting her see her son.
That is another problem, the cultural issue. I was expecting to be treated in a different way.
I did not leave my house until I married at 27. My sister also, at 35. My brother at 25. My cousin is 25 and is with his mother. In my country you do not leave your family unless you get married.
My son left my house at 17 when he went to the dormitories at the university. He never came back. That was a killer.
When you adopt a different culture you get things that you love and things that you do not love so much.

So, I just identified one of the problems.

I totally forgot about that.

[Hopalong]

Yup, that was me (Hops guest), Lup...sometimes I log in for just one hour at work.

You are thinking SMART and you summed up the cultural difference exactly. MILs overall have no accepted power in the family here. The moment a young person takes a spouse or mate their loyalty is supposed to be to the mate. That really is different.

Good that you remember it now.

Another piece, painful for you when you're lonely, is what my D has told me when I forgot: Mom, you are not my friend. I don't want you to be my friend. You are my mother.

So you can only be a mother figure in some way, or at best an older adult friend. Never a "play"mate. Children here don't play with their mothers.

It's a whole lot of tongue-biting. But I bet it will be worth it in the end.

Maybe instead of telling your son he needs to come over more often so you will feel happy, you could just use "I" messages:

I enjoyed it so much when you brought your friend over. I love making food for you! I hope you'll come again soon.

(See? You're telling the absolute truth but there's no criticism of him, and no guilt trip (keeping score of the frequency). That makes you warm and appealing, which makes it more likely he'll come over more. It's just expressing the truth from I-statements, and positive and "attracting" statements, instead of pressure and guilt, which do the oposite.)

love
Hops