ASSUMING makes an....

[gratitude28]

I have found myself in a position, more than once, of believing I know what my NM is doing and trying to "catch" her at it. And I have been wrong. Why do I even bother? I guess because I am tired of being lied to and I want her exposed. Ugh, I guess they instinctively know how to be the sneakiest... They would not do something that would show their true nature.
Has anyone else done this? Do you second-guess your N????
Love, Beth

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
  I remember you were in this position a few months ago,, with the computer. I could feel your desire for' justice." I think that you have a deep need to "expose" the lies. I think that it is a cry for justice and truth that comes from deep within..
  I think that these values are important to you. It is my impression from "knowing "you.
 I think that you are struggling with core values.
 Also, the lies of the N make us want to tear our hair out. We want to scream ,"NO more lies."When my M was here(before I stood up and she backed down) ,I was crying. I just wanted the lies to go away, ALL the lies, all the years and years of lies. They were so deep, so embedded. 
   I think that you may be facing similar things. Beth, you WANT your M to be different. I think that this must be human,not a "weakness"
 Maybe,we will always want this,until the day we die. Maybe, it can't be helped.
 Beth, I think that YOU are sane and seeing her through sane eyes. You want to "put" your sanilty on to her and the situation, You want to "right" the situation. That is what I think your core issue is. Down deep, you want to make it right.
                                   Love ,  Ami

[gratitude28]

((((((((Ami)))))))))

Thanks for your response. I think I don't care anymore about having a different mother. I think more than anything I wish I could open my sister's eyes. I feel sad and sorry watching her try to explain all of my NM's behavior. She spends so much time justifying her actions... She is in serious denial. I also would like for my dad to see... but I don't know if that would be good or bad. Ultimately, I have to leave it in someone else's hands, as I am not the boss of the world

Love, Beth

[Hopalong]

With an xNbf, I contacted several of his former lovers, and we compared notes and identified the patterns and lies. And then I let him know. He had a meltdown.

Mask removal was painful for him, but extremely healing for me and the other 2 women (one told me she'd been in therapy for 4 years trying to get over him, but he kept rehooking her...and now she realized she could heal). So that "solidarity" was enormous.

And I admit that unmasking him, so he'd know we all knew what each other knew...was satisfying while I was still so angry. Later, I came to feel sorry for him again. But I stayed free.

In my family, unmasking has only helped in overt circumstances, like when my brother stole private letters from my computer and I had a copy of the email he'd sent himself (while lying to me that he'd not touched it). I presented it to him right in front of my mother. Quietly said this is proof, and I never want you to enter my study again.

That said, now that another visit is imminent, I hide papers and carry my laptop with me everywhere. No trust.

I don't know if you'll ever have that satisfaction w/in your family, Beth. Do you know what your limits are? As in, how hard and how long you'll try?

love,
Hops

[Ami]

Dear Beth,
  My eyes are opening to "realities" in the world. S/how I am seeing how *I *wanted to sit in the center of the universe and pull all the strings (in my world) and have it all turn out all right for me.
  I really, really was trying to do this and had no idea about it.
 I am seeing, now, that the "players"(my M,H,F) are running on their OWN hamster wheels. They are not running for or against me. They are trying to outrun their own demons.
  It is a relief to see. I am just starting to see with my heart,not just my head.I am so glad that I could offer you some comfort, Beth.It touched my heart.          Love    Ami

[gratitude28]

I don't know that I will try, hops. My sister sees what she wants to see. Once I told her about Narcissism, and she semi-agreed, but tensed when the subject was brought up again, so I have let it drop. The funny thing is, she is a doctor, and told me that my explanaiton of Narcissism was not accurate - that it was something else. They have their bubble. I have my life, which is very nice. I don't need for anything to happen. I think I just am reeling still from realizing how long the lies/games have been going on and how oblivious I was to it all. I went on being the nice, good daughter I was supposed to be while my mother was pitting my sister and I against each other. My sister and I are close again - we talk all the time. My mother is still trying to get between us, but not having success. It is unbelievable to me, a mother who loves both children and works to help them love each other (which they do), that you would enjoy doing this to your children.

[Leah]

Dear Beth,

No, I don't try to second guess an N

With my nmom, three years ago, she knew that I was becoming more aware through my researching and reading, and so she set a trap for me, then enjoyed herself; my expression of surprise.  My nmom has other disordered traits and is very very, scarily, clever.

With my ndad, now he is different, last year I believed in good faith a story he told me, until, my inner self told me different, so I contacted the third party and during my conversation I mentioned my ndad's story account, to which it was then confirmed, that he had lied.

So, with the true facts, I was able to approach my ndad and remove his mask. He was in shock, and he did not like to have to admit, amazingly, he did admit, but, however, he did a quick shuffle with some blameshifting etc., and, he never apologized to me.

Assuming as they taught me in my DV support and advocacy training, only makes an ass out of me!  Which I really like to retain 

Hope my true life story accounts are of some help.

Love, Leah

[Gaining Strength]

Gratitude - this is the 3rd or 4th post this week with which I identify very closely.  I have long felt that my mother lied and on occassion caught her in her lies - until the past few months.  A series of events changed my family dynamic this summer and I have been able to see clearly, and unmistakably how dependant both my parents are on lying.  Until this summer - the one N characteristic I could not identify with my father was lieing.  Well I was wrong - very wrong.

On mother's day my father was hospitalized with ceptic delirium. It set off an insane two months of commitment to the psyche ward and two months of legal battles to get him the help he desparately needed which my brothers and I eventually lost.

Meanwhile on Memorial Day Eve my mother broke her hip and was hospitalized for 6 weeks and thereafter in need of in home help.  The following Saturday my older brother married a wealthy woman from Palm Beach.  All of these are significant in the revelation that both of my parents are perhaps pathological liars.  My father lies primarily in a profoundly manipulative way and my mother lies without provocation.

During my father's hospitalization my brother's and i agreed to be on the same page so that we could get the help he clearly desparately needed.  Because my middle brother was getting married he was not available for 5 of the 6 (contentious and excruciatingly painful) commitment hearings.  He began to doubt my oldest brother and my account of my father's behavior, including the revelation that he was a profoundly proficient liar and that his lies were all part of complex schemes to manipulate anyone and everyone.  He is very, very good at it.

Because the one attribute i had always acknowledged in my father was his unwavering honesty the revelation of his pathology of lieing was a real shock.

But the bigger shock was learning what a liar my mother is.  I knew she lied when it suited her but because i didn't have a dialogue with my brothers i had no idea that she was telling them things diametrically opposed to what she said to me.  But now that my oldest brother and I communicate and my mother's sitter and I talk I have learned that my mother lies all throughout the day about significant and insignificant issues, provoked and unprovoked.  It is shocking.  I now know that I cannot believe anything she says - whether it is an answer to my question or even something that she brings up herself.  For example, I asked her if she had called a man about fixing her computer - she said she had.  Her answer means nothing to me.  It tells me nothing.  It might be true but then  it might be a lie.  I have no way of knowing.  But she also approached me to tell me that she no longer ate sweets.  But that afternoon a 1/4 of a cake I left at her house was gone and her refrigerator was filled with pudding and other desserts.  She called my brother and told him that i wouldn't answer her calls anymore and that i wouldn't come to see her or allow her to see my son.  She told him this on Fri. or Sat.  My son and I had visited on Wed.  I spoke with her ONCE on Fri. and Sat. though she called 6 and 8 times each day - with as many as 5 calls within oNE hour.  AND we had plans to have lunch on Saturday.  Now why would she tell my brother that i wouldn't talk to her or see her? 

But - and here is ultimately my point, now that i know how compulsive a liar she is I am at long last able to let go of her.  I'll still talk with her and visit but this has really helped me let go of those lingering needs to connect from her and receive that mothering nurture.  But now i am much freer - knowing that the truth is not in her.

[Hopalong]

Beth,
I am so happy to hear you and your sister have a close bond.
That's way better than the usual wreckage...it's wonderful!

GS,
I can understand how seeing your mother's pathology in her lying has helped you stop yearning.
What a liberation.

love to you both,
Hops

[Leah]

I can understand how seeing your mother's pathology in her lying has helped you stop yearning.

What a liberation.

Trumpets blasting away at Leah's desk!

As that is the very sentence I need to explain to the not enlightened ones who question my No Contact with NM

YIPPEE 

And yes, it has been a liberation.

"Thank you" Hops

Love, Leah

[gratitude28]

Yes, Hops, it is nice for us to be close again. She and I went through a long period of separation. She is not an N, but has those tendencies - especially as she was the Golden Child.

GS - I was very shocked as well, when I figured out that my NM lies. I remember lying a LOT as a child, and deciding one day to stop. I think I was so used to hearing lies, that lying came naturally. I hope I will also be able to accept her lies as par for the course... but it's hard to hear them and not wince...

bean... then you are further along than me, and it is good to know that this must be a stage in the healing process. I always feel comforted when others have experienced the same things. I was feeling like a bufoon's ass this past few weeks...

Leah, looks like you did what I would like to do... with the outcome I suspected. Thanks for giving me the example to cnfirm what I was thinking! I am sorry you had to go through that. Ugh - I really despise dishonesty - especially sneakiness and dishonesty.

Thanks very much all.

Love, Beth