What bait does your N use?

[flower]

Hi everyone! It's good to be back.
       We have a new hard drive in another computer and hope this hard drive lasts awhile.

       My question: What do your N unloving ones use for bait in your life to reel you back in?

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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

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        What do your N unloving ones use for bait in your life to reel you back in?

[Dawning]

What do your N unloving ones use for bait in your life to reel you back in?

Their attention to me.  They hold it over me like a carrot and always have.  It is only recently that I haven't been HAPPY to hear from them because...gee...I am getting emails from my mom and dad. But they never ask any questions.  They talk about themselves.   What they really WANT is attention.  It is so obvious now.  I am keeping my distance as difficult as it is and as alone as I feel because getting involved in their Nism would stop me from finally assessing what my needs are.  And doing something about it.  

I have thought of writing them a letter but, as you mentioned several times, they deny everything.  They refuse to feel guilt or remorse.    Its funny...they've been divorced since 1965 and don't talk to one another but they are both really self-absorbed people.  Maybe that is why they hit it off to begin with.

[Ellie]

My N parents use threats as their bait.

Since proclaiming my independence from N parents the other day, mine are using a threat to take me to court trying to make me comply with going back to the other me they used to know. In other words, behave the way we want you to or we will take you to court. Their ignorance is showng. But last night I dreamed we got a letter that they were taking us to court to take our children away from us. This is a threat they've used for years. I can deal with their verbal threats when they say them, I laugh at them, but I guess it stays on my mind to keep dreaming terrible things. Of course they have no leg to stand on, but my N dad hates me so for standing up to him, that he would rather see me locked away than give me another opportunity to stand up to him. I just need to get them out of my head!!!!!! Is there a pill to take to make you forget your past?????? I know there isn't, but I am free of the control, now I want to be free of the voices!!!!

[Singer]

Hi Flower (welcome back), and everyone,

Over the years my Nmother has used all of the above. She had her doctor admit me for psychiatric evaluation when I was in college because I became so frustrated by her denial of everything except her fantasies that I actually smashed  the face of a table clock with my fist out of frustration. I was 20 at the time and after a week the doctor finally told her he couldn’t keep me there because there was nothing wrong with me. I was in college at the time and they had to let me out on a day pass to attend classes. That was fun.

Her favorite bait, later on was holidays and family occasions. She placed quite a bit of importance on keeping up appearances. Didn’t matter that she was on the phone spreading venom between occasions; my sister and brother weren’t supposed to know about that since we weren’t supposed to be talking among ourselves without her permission anyway.

But all that was many years ago. Right now I really think we’d both rather not have anything to do with each other except that she’s old and needs help. And even if she does finally face facts and move into an assisted living environment, the thought of me going on about my business is not acceptable.

So I’d have to say that right now the bait is guilt. She’s driving around with an expired drivers license and when her car wouldn’t start last week she called my brother 800 miles away because she said she couldn’t bother me (living 2 miles away). She rejects everything I try to do for her and tells everyone it’s because I’m always so angry and unpleasant. How she would know that is beyond me; when I called her on the 4th she blasted my sister, her best friend, my nephew, his fiancee, and my brother’s wife for two solid hours. The only times I got in a word was when she’d pause long enough to demand ARE YOU THERE? in between tirades. She got in a couple of shots at me too, I guess so that I shouldn’t feel left out.

So it’s guilt and the fact that I still love and feel sorry for her as bitter, self-absorbed, self-deluded mean-spirited as she is. Maybe I still think she’s like one of the characters in the books I used to love as a kid. Like Heidi’s crabby old grandfather in the Swiss Alps who just needed the love of a child to turn him around. Except in my case she’d probably accuse me of trying to clobber her with a cuckoo clock while her back was turned. She might be right.

Singer

[Anonymous]

flower,

Welcome back! Your father has been brainwashed by the woman he lives with. Keep your boundaries against these lunatics.

I believe your parents have zero chance of successfully suing for visitation of your son. For one thing, you and your husband aren't divorced. You get to decide who has access to your children. For another, your son is old enough to decide who he spends time with. No court is going to listen to these nutcases.

In my family, guilt is the major bait and it works really well!  

bunny

[les]

Hi Flower and all. What a good question and boy do I relate to it all. My 91 year old mother recently told me about an "insight" she had. She said that she now realized that the way to get people to do the things you want them to do is with honey. It took me awhile as it always does ( the black widow spider syndrome - stung, paralysed, witless, sucked dry) to figure out that this really was just a variation on the same old theme-'how can I get what I want when I want it.' But I was actually somewhat relieved initially because I thought it might mean an end to the bullying and guilt tripping. Honey is just another quiver in her bow, another gun in her arsenal.  She has a pillow with an embroidered message, "Money isn't everything...but it sure keeps the kids coming around." Would be funny in "normal" circumstances.

Today I am wrestling with whether to go see her or not. She has been "dying" for so long (meanwhile playing golf etc) that I don't know what's real and what's not. She did have a small stroke 2 years ago and that is always hanging in the air.  Biweekly trips to doctors and specialists reveal that she is in remarkable shape. I suppose the, what if she died and I didn't do enough.... hangs over me, but less and less since coming to the board. We all die. I do keep asking myself what is fair and reasonable behaviour in these circumstances - old woman needs a sense of family and help - just work it out day by day.

So what does she use --- the threat of stroke, death, the lure of money  oodles of poor me and bad you.

Les

[Singer]

Today I am wrestling with whether to go see her or not. She has been "dying" for so long (meanwhile playing golf etc) that I don't know what's real and what's not. She did have a small stroke 2 years ago and that is always hanging in the air.  Biweekly trips to doctors and specialists reveal that she is in remarkable shape. I suppose the, what if she died and I didn't do enough.... hangs over me, but less and less since coming to the board.

Wow, Les. Sounds so similar to what I've been dealing with except my mother is "only" 79. But there will be no honey forthcoming; my mother has said that she doesn't give a damn what happens to anyone in the family, or outside of it for that matter, either now or after she's gone. At the same time she seems obsessed with everyone. She's so filled with rage and contradictions that I had suspected Alzheimers, but her doctor says her mind is strong and there's absolutely no sign of it.

We all die. I do keep asking myself what is fair and reasonable behaviour in these circumstances - old woman needs a sense of family and help - just work it out day by day.

It is day by day. I feel fortunate though in that there's really nothing she can do to hurt me anymore. My children are grown and she has just enough money to keep her comfortable for the rest of her life, but nothing more than that.

Mostly I'm just trying to figure out what happened and is happening with my original family. There are so many questions. Mostly about what's real and what isn't on an emotional level. For me emotions have always been a minefield.

Singer

[BlueTopaz]

My question: What do your N unloving ones use for bait in your life to reel you back in?

My N encounter was not with a parent, but with a significant other.

A major problem was his distancing (in hurtful ways ) at the 3 mnth. mark.  The intimacy growth that would occur beyond that point brought up all his inner stuff & caused him severe inner pain & anxiety.   So, he'd distance & we'd start from a place of less intimacy again, until it got to the 3 mnth. break point again.   This happened over, & over & over....  

He'd attempt to reel me back after distancing, by saying all of these wise, seemingly introspective comments.   He'd realized this, & that now...    An old & familiar story for so many who have dating non committal men, I'm sure.  

He knows that I am very inner growth oriented & so he would ask me a whole bunch of questions on the topic, as well.   Like he'd taken some huge interest in the subject

He also attempted to keep me hooked during distancing, by ambivalence, as strange as that would seem.  You'd think it would be a driving away force.   The ambivalence equaled hope to me.   At least it wasn't over & maybe we would work it through, was my rationalized mind set.

He knew this very well, and we were in a perpetual state of ambivalence for 4 out of the 5 years, I'd say!

[Max]

Flower

Thanks for your post.  I feel really bad for your father and alarmed that I could be him in the future if I don't get out of this.  My daughters don't want anything to do with their mother either.  It's too bad your father can't wake up.

The bait my N always throws at me - and it worked for years - was to pretend to be interested in something that was important to me, then either trash it or trash my talent in it.  For example, pretending to be interested in gardening - then telling me I was wasting money, time and "it looks ugly anyway".

Max

[les]

What a topic this is. All the posts are so interesting and insightful.  I would like to comment on all of them but will limit myself and try to keep my post to under a page!...Maybe being way too sensitive here but never want anyone to feel that they weren't heard!

I think Singer, you mentioned that you are trying to work out the impact of it all on you and your original family. (hey using colour is fun) How are your relationships with any brothers and sisters?

The rage that you and others refer to - the need to diminish everyone else; my mother can't seem to find a kind word about anyone. One day my husband just said he wasn't going to listen to it anymore and she has improved a little since then - perhaps just finding more devious ways to convey her thoughts.  Such bitterness these people carry around - in mother's case I think she expected to be continuously worshipped throughout her life and when it didn't happen (although I was left with the job and gave it a really good go!) she turned to trashing others - all part of the N way of behaving I guess.  I am amazed and impressed that you can feel love for your mother Singer.  I think I am trying to get there, it would make this stage of caretaking easier but "the love" is really deeply buried at the moment!

"the thought of me going on about my business is not acceptable." Does this mean - 'Don't you have a full interesting life because I certainly don't and so you shouldn't either'.- I have always felt I needed to hide anything nice in my life (friends for instance) because of her jealousy.

So true Dawning - N parents deny everything. It seems there is no real chance for them to learn and grow. Attention, attention - they need to be hooked up to an IV full of it.

What a hoot Flower - I think you have a best seller on your hands! I know I'd buy several copies. You remind me also that I must get 'Trapped in the Mirror.' My mother still tells me that she didn't feel anything for my older brother and sister but when I was born it all came together, she felt "love." Iwish I understood this but I think it was simply because I reminded her of herself - dark hair etc.  I know it's one of the major things at the root of this ghastly relationship.

Thanks for listening all

Les

[seeker]

Hi everyone,

A#1 bait in my family is Guilt!!  "If you were a good girl, you do as I say!  What is wr-r-rong with you?"  Ouch.  Hurts just to type that.

The bait my N-SIL used was to borrow stuff and not return it, so we'd have to visit to get it back.  Then it was free tickets from the office.  Then it was access to my brother and/or nephew.  You know, "family togetherness".  Ick.

A red flag I have with other non-related covert Ns is when someone asks a question as though they are truly interested (the set-up) and if you answer enthusiastically, they answer with a withering "good for yooou" (spike!).  Buh-bye!  

Oh I loved your bag o tricks, Flower!   My SIL uses all of those!  My dad uses the Doubtmaster, still does.  No wonder my teachers would write "needs more confidence" on my report cards and my dad didn't do or say anything about it...he liked it that way!!!

Take care out there, Seeker  

[Anonymous]

Add another to the guilt/manipulation brigade. Or maybe it's shaming..... I knew something wasn't right pretty early on on my marriage.  But whenever I would make the slightest murmurings about leaving, my NH would hit me with something like......

"Yeah, that's you, a quitter.  That's the way that you deal with everything, you just leave.  You never work at anything.  You never try to work things out.  You just leave. You'll never have a real relationship because you're not willing to work at it."

So, since my personal history wasn't exactly stellar, of course I rose to the occasion, I didn't leave. I was going to be a better person.  I kept trying to do better, read that as trying to please him.  Until I caught him cheating on me.   Even THEN I stayed because he was willing to get counseling.  I fell for it again !!!!  Color me stupid !!

So, by the time I finally DID wake up, I was a total wreck.  But since I finally, really KNEW that he was poison, I DID actually leave. Hardest thing I ever did in my life.  But I knew that if I didn't get out, I would die.

Fortunately, there IS life after N-World.  I'm amazed to find that there really are people out there with no hidden agenda.  That it isn't always pulling teeth.  That you CAN have just a simple, pleasant good time.  That real communication and compromise doesn't make you end up feeling like you were swindled.

So, don't bite the bait !!!!!!   There's always a REALLY BIG HOOK under it !

Gingerpeach

[Max]

Flower

I love your bag of tricks!  I may just draw some of them and make my own bag just to remind myself.

My N was able to sucker punch me over and over for years.  Kind of like Charlie Brown being fooled once again that Lucy would hold the football for him to kick.  

Max

[Singer]

Hi again,

As Flower said,

So many interesting things you all say, I just can't resist commenting!

But where to start? So many of your experiences hit home.  Flower, the info vacumn is my downfall. I always fall for that one, and being told how I lacked confidence. Seeker, I've also fallen for the borrowed stuff used as bait, but it doesn't have to be borrowed. It can be an old photograph, promised but never delivered, a book that I might have expressed an interest in ten years ago,  or even a piece of misdirected junk mail.

Les asked,

How are your relationships with any brothers and sisters?

and got me thinking because that question has been troubling lately. I have a polite, but superficial relationship with both my brother and sister. We're like people who have been through an unexpected disaster together. We know we've shared something life changing, but we don't especially want to talk about it.  My brother has a family with a wife and children of his own, and my sister has made family from friendships, which infuriates our mother even more than anything I've ever done, which is saying something.

The thing is, my Nmother never wanted to believe that she would become old. But if old is what she has to be, then she's going to play it to the hilt. Can't be a damsel in distress without plenty of villains.

Here we go again, different tune, same old song.

Singer

[Anonymous]

Hello all,

Singer wrote

The thing is, my Nmother never wanted to believe that she would become old. But if old is what she has to be, then she's going to play it to the hilt.

My dad has just hit the Senior Zone big time, filling up his days with doctor appts and insisting my mother drive him.  Oi!  He second-guesses all his doctors because if they knew anything they would know what's wrong with him, which is nothing and yet, everything!!!

Max, I have often thought of poor Charlie Brown and Lucy duping him again at the start of football season.  I have always hated that motif but didn't know why until recently.  When I wish an N would change, I just think of Charlie and Lucy...isn't it funny that Charles Schulz chose Lucy to be the neighborhood shrink, too?      She has all the answers, whether they are helpful or not!  

Gingerpeach wrote:

Fortunately, there IS life after N-World. I'm amazed to find that there really are people out there with no hidden agenda. That it isn't always pulling teeth. That you CAN have just a simple, pleasant good time. That real communication and compromise doesn't make you end up feeling like you were swindled.

Hey GP great to hear from you   and to hear such hopeful words!  I believe there is an N epidemic in my area...I live in a hip, affluent area (I am not hip, not affluent) and all within seek and affirm the American Beauty, Pottern Barn cardboard lifestyle.  ("I WILL sell this house today!")I get a little sick, trying to figure out the unwritten rules of self-appointed bluebloods and feeling like I stepped in the dog doo.  Literally ill.  It permeates the atmosphere.  So I'm taking deep breaths (no not of the dog doo!!!) Fresh.  Air.  That's better.

Phew!  Well, take care out there!  Seeker