pathological RUDENESS!

[write]

I just visited ex and greeted & started to speak to him and he walked off mid-sentence, not a word, absolutely no manners whatsoever.

This has always been fairly common with him but it's only now I see it clearly, how on earth did I miss this level of pathological behaviour though????

My family was always pretty abrupt or bad-mannered or easily withdrew but still....

It's quite a NPD trait, I hope I pick up on it right away with anyone new who comes into my life, it's extreme empathy-lack isn't it.

~W

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Write,

I'm noticing such behaviours more and more these days, too. I think that this sort of rudeness in others is even more apparent now because of a very late-blooming acknowledgement of self-value, whereas - before - it would have barely been noticed.

One thing... although I do agree that npd can be extremely rude, I see similar behaviours in those who suffer from depression as well as attention-deficit/scatterbrained disorder (just made that one up  )...
so I try not to take it to heart.

All in all, I'd say it's a very good thing that you're noticing! So much better to be aware...

Carolyn

[SilverLining]

Hi, Write,

I see similar behaviours in those who suffer from  attention-deficit/scatterbrained disorder (just made that one up  )...
so I try not to take it to heart.


Carolyn

It's a good diagnosis for about  75% of the population IMHO.      I try not to let the instances of mild rudeness get me down, because they seem to happen all the time.  I don't believe people mean badly, they are just too strung out by the stresses of modern living. 

[Certain Hope]

Really does seem to be getting worse, tjr! But I should note here...

Write, I do realize that you were speaking of pathological rudeness, beyond the "norm" (whatever the norm might be)...

and yes, I really and truly have witnessed such a level of constant, repeated, consistent, glaringly obvious rudeness lately - and from people of all ages.  Of the three examples which spring immediately to mind, one is severely depressed, another is very attention deficit, and the third is simply so consumed with her own issues and hectic schedule, she seems oblivious to everyone else (but not Npd).

Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

Back again, Write...  just remembering and realizing... with npd, it never really matters whether or not we're present.

If she/he feels like talking, we might receive words and gestures, but it's still only a one-way deal...
How many times have you thought that you were actually having a conversation with N only to discover that he/she is only engaging in auditory self-stimulation?  Too numerous to count, I imagine.

[write]

How many times have you thought that you were actually having a conversation with N only to discover that he/she is only engaging in auditory self-stimulation?  Too numerous to count, I imagine.

good point CH. Even if you think you've impressed upon NPD person the importance of something you're imposing so it'll get subconsciously or deliberately disregarded!

Today is such a day, I arrive to collect ex to give him ride as he asked. I told him it was fine but I had a lot of computer work to do. Guess what? Son's computer is now down. Rememeber when this happened a couple of weeks ago in the middle of organising my end of year accounts.

Ex is upset because he broke it but says he's upset because of upsetting me! I say never mind, maybe you shouldn't do these things when you're on your way out the door and maybe it's tiem I got my own computer. In anyone else that would be the solutions but ex said 'I've always been like this, impetuous!' and 'if you get your own computer you'll simply break it in a few days.'

Couldn't resist, said no I won't, I won't do maintenance as I am on my way out the door!

But it's always double-bind with NPD person- don't do this, don't do that. No solutions, no answers, and I'm mad at you either way.

I swear half of my abilities have come from dealing with things like this which have happened constantly all our lives!

He's always broken anything I needed or liked, or subtly sabotaged or tried to control. No amount of reassurance that I care about him and he doesn't need to behave these ways has made any difference.

It's strange, he perplexes me still because I can't fully understand the way he thinks, it shifts so much, but I see all these things so clearly now- especially the control aspects of the behaviour.
It's no coincidence I am working on a deadline for a piece which is being performed at the radio station in less than three weeks time!

The rudeness came out this morning in a lot of vitriol towards others, had to address some of that in son yesterday. Son is starting to talk about moving in with me again- if I did notspend so much time at ex's I think he would too. I'm trying to avoid that because I know ex will not deal with what he'll see as rejection, he wants to be in control even when it's not possible.

I wonder if he will have a total breakdown when he reaches middle age, he's certainly getting very whiny about his health etc even though again- he sees good diet, exercise etc as impositions and won't do them.

I feel more concerned about him all the time, he really is a sorry soul.

I don't believe people mean badly, they are just too strung out by the stresses of modern living. 

it becomes a habit, how we treat others, I think. I don't think I am ever rude to anyone, if I hear that tone creep into my voice I try to stop it and behave better. It makes my mood worse if I indulge it!

That's what ex does, indulge his moods, and throw them around for others to experience.

You probably think I am naive but I really never saw any of it clearly until now!!!

[SilverLining]

If she/he feels like talking, we might receive words and gestures, but it's still only a one-way deal...
How many times have you thought that you were actually having a conversation with N only to discover that he/she is only engaging in auditory self-stimulation?  Too numerous to count, I imagine.

That's a great point.  When conversing with an N I feel like some kind of accessory to their own internal monologue.  They may seem to sometimes respond to something I said, but only in a way which lets them quickly flip the conversation back to their own concerns.  There is almost never any real listening or substantive consideration of my point of view.

And being raised in an N-ish environment, I learned to just shut up.  It wasn't worth trying to actually converse with the family. 

[Leah]

If she/he feels like talking, we might receive words and gestures, but it's still only a one-way deal...
How many times have you thought that you were actually having a conversation with N only to discover that he/she is only engaging in auditory self-stimulation?  Too numerous to count, I imagine.

That's a great point.  When conversing with an N I feel like some kind of accessory to their own internal monologue.  They may seem to sometimes respond to something I said, but only in a way which lets them quickly flip the conversation back to their own concerns.  There is almost never any real listening or substantive consideration of my point of view.

And being raised in an N-ish environment, I learned to just shut up.  It wasn't worth trying to actually converse with the family. 

Eactly, what I did, and choose to do, is simply, to just shut up, with any N type person.  And in particular, in my FOO, it simply was an empty task, and, truly glad, to be, non-defensive in communication, as was, and will be, as my free will choice.  Because, in reality, anything else, is futile, and so very emotionally draining.

Sadly, they truly don't have any listening capacity.

Because, there is no-one there, sadly, they are seemingly, empty vessels.

Leah

[alone48]

I use to tell my ex, it wasn't what he said, it was how he said it. There are so many different ways to so NO, than just no. Is that being a wimp or considerate. I guess it depends on the outcome of the situation, but why would you be rude just because you can. We would have company over and he would just get up and go to bed, no explanation. After awhile people just took it for granted he was the way he was, but I felt that I always had to give extra to compensate for the rudeness.

[Certain Hope]

Ex is upset because he broke it but says he's upset because of upsetting me! I say never mind, maybe you shouldn't do these things when you're on your way out the door and maybe it's tiem I got my own computer. In anyone else that would be the solutions but ex said 'I've always been like this, impetuous!' and 'if you get your own computer you'll simply break it in a few days.'

Write,

This is just my take on NPD, and I may be wrong, but I'll offer this up for consideration... and I'll state it as though it's fact, but please know it's all just an "imo".

The question is not "What has upset NPD?"

The fact is, NPD is not a bit upset re: either the broken computer or the fact that you are upset.
NPD loves it when you are upset, particularly when he's done something which created the upset.
He's powerful that way and thrives on that power.
The broken computer and your upset are all irrelevant.

But it's always double-bind with NPD person- don't do this, don't do that. No solutions, no answers, and I'm mad at you either way.

Exactly. And if there were no double bind at all and absolutely no reason to be upset, he'd still be mad at you, because npd is the one and only superiorly worthwhile being in the cosmos. Everyone else is an ant compared to him.

He's always broken anything I needed or liked, or subtly sabotaged or tried to control. No amount of reassurance that I care about him and he doesn't need to behave these ways has made any difference.

Of course. Write, NPD is not jealous. He doesn't fear that you'll love him less if other things/people/pets/whatever give you pleasure.
NPD is envious and that is an entirely different force of destruction. If you are to be allowed to exist in his tiny circle of reality, you must absolutely not have anything, be anything, long for anything, hope for anything, dream of anything... but him.

I don't believe people mean badly, they are just too strung out by the stresses of modern living. 

it becomes a habit, how we treat others, I think. I don't think I am ever rude to anyone, if I hear that tone creep into my voice I try to stop it and behave better. It makes my mood worse if I indulge it!

That's what ex does, indulge his moods, and throw them around for others to experience.

You probably think I am naive but I really never saw any of it clearly until now!!!

Dear Write,

If you really think that he doesn't have bad intentions, then you're not seeing it clearly yet, imo.
The self-indulgence of moods, etc, etc, etc.... all of that is the real mask.
Npd's only goal is utter destruction. Of you. Of any one who dares to try to love him. Period.

Carolyn

[alone48]

Carolyn,

Npd's only goal is utter destruction. Of you. Of any one who dares to try to love him. Period.

OMG! Did that not put it in perspective for me!!!!!!!!

[write]

Dear Write,

If you really think that he doesn't have bad intentions, then you're not seeing it clearly yet, imo.
The self-indulgence of moods, etc, etc, etc.... all of that is the real mask.
Npd's only goal is utter destruction. Of you. Of any one who dares to try to love him. Period.

Carolyn

Thanks for thinking about me CH.

maybe you're right, but I am trying to come up with a creative way of keeping my family together for as long as possible, and behaving judgementally or hatefully myself would compromise my own values and be equally unpragmatic for us.

There's not going to be a perfect solution in this but I will say- things have come a lot further than I ever thought, and I never for a moment feel I wasted any of my effort or love anywhere- even with ex.

All love given returns- just maybe not the way we expect or from the original people we love.

Love
~Write

[Leah]

Dear Write,

If you really think that he doesn't have bad intentions, then you're not seeing it clearly yet, imo.
The self-indulgence of moods, etc, etc, etc.... all of that is the real mask.
Npd's only goal is utter destruction. Of you. Of any one who dares to try to love him. Period.

Carolyn

Thanks for thinking about me CH.

maybe you're right, but I am trying to come up with a creative way of keeping my family together for as long as possible,

and behaving judgementally or hatefully myself would compromise my own values and be equally unpragmatic for us.

There's not going to be a perfect solution in this but I will say- things have come a lot further than I ever thought, and I never for a moment feel I wasted any of my effort or love anywhere- even with ex.

All love given returns- just maybe not the way we expect or from the original people we love.

Love
~Write

Dear ((( Write )))

I won't either, feel like I have been away a little, from my authentic self, but, gratefully, have returned, to my inner values, authentic self.

What you have shared, to me, is what authentic love is.  Unconditionally given.

there is a saying;   "your vision becomes clear when you look into your own heart"

which seems to be a good choice of vision.

Love, Leah



Do the thing you believe in. Do the best you
can in the place where you are and be kind.

--Scott Nearing


Edit:  maintaining healthy boundaries, of course!

[Certain Hope]

Thanks for thinking about me CH.

maybe you're right, but I am trying to come up with a creative way of keeping my family together for as long as possible, and behaving judgementally or hatefully myself would compromise my own values and be equally unpragmatic for us.

There's not going to be a perfect solution in this but I will say- things have come a lot further than I ever thought, and I never for a moment feel I wasted any of my effort or love anywhere- even with ex.

All love given returns- just maybe not the way we expect or from the original people we love.

Love
~Write

Dear Write,

I can't really imagine you behaving judgmentally or hatefully toward anyone...
and I absolutely agree with you in the belief that love is never wasted, as it softens and warms the heart of the giver, even if not having the same effect on the recipient...
the thing is, I see people (including myself, in the past) approach pathological NPD as though it's a wild animal to be tamed... with an approach full of "if onlys"... the main one being, "if only I can love her/him well enough".

But I see pathological NPD as so much more than mere self-absorbed, careless, rude misbehavior.... indeed, more like a feral animal - - which knows what it's like to be domesticated and has ferociously, brutally, most definitely rejected domestication.

There is one challenge to which NPD simply cannot resist responding destructively, and that is - "I will love you, no matter what."

Love to you, Write

Carolyn

[write]

"your vision becomes clear when you look into your own heart"

yes, the most important lesson in all this for me is why did I marry a man with NPD- twice- and why do I repeat the pattern more frequesntly than coincidence when I meet a potential romantic partner....why do I identify so strongly with someone who cannot love me and how do I unlearn that and learn to love someone who loves me?

There is one challenge to which NPD simply cannot resist responding destructively, and that is - "I will love you, no matter what."

with perfect synchronicity I picked up Susan Peabody's book 'Addicted to love' last week and opened the chapter on Christian love and romantic love. She says it's important not to confuse the two, for romantic love demands reciprocation and return from the person receiving it, whilst agape goes out there whatever happens and simply spreads love to the world. She thinks we damage ourselves by pouring out romantic love on someone who does not or cannot reciprocate and confusing it with unconditional christian love.

I met a woman walking once who told me 'when he tells you he isn't going to be faithful- believe him.'
People tell their story pretty quickly but the very things which would repulse someone with a healthy relationship background attracts someone like me;
as my therapist would say 'oh- you'll get your mother and father to love you this time then?!'

And now I replaced them as an adult with ex, and subconsciously search for his replacement now I've given up on hoping a romance with him can work...

None of it is as concrete as this of course, but these veins of early childhood yearning run deep, and reappear, and undermine happiness.

There is one challenge to which NPD simply cannot resist responding destructively, and that is - "I will love you, no matter what."

I don't know. My ex knows I love him and always will, but he also knows it is the way I want to love everyone, not a special romance between just he and I. that's an insult to NPD, to not be the one and only. In fact, in a marriage relationship I need it to be him me and G_d and ex totally resented that from day one, did all he could to end my faith.

It's an NPD fight for survival, nothing whatsoever to do with me of course- that's the most important thing to learn for me:

stop doing relationships with people who aren't really doing a relationship with me!

And that was my childhood in a sentence, my survival depended on trying to engage this half-dead community of alcoholics, behaviourally and emotionally out of control and stulted immature adults, the children competing and set against each other for crumbs of attention and affection.

What an empty cruel situation I grew up in, loveless, spiritless, hopeless. It's the traumatised child in me who clings to those things even as the adult tries to shake them off...like Hops said about trembling when the bully of 50 years ago arrives- we have to accept, expect, anticipate and deal with our reaction from the past.

Love to everyone,

~Write