Voicelessness and Needlessness As Power?

[Violet]

Hello,

Does this make any sense?  My Nmother (hope it is ok to call her that, she does not have a formal diagnosis, just my belief is that she fits the criteria) just called this morning wanting information about my grown kids.  Since I started hearing alarm bells, I used a ploy to disengage that works well ("I am right in the middle of something, mom, not a good time, so can't talk, bye!"), but thinking about the conversations I usually have with her, I wonder if I have used voicelessness and subjugating personal needs as a way to remain aloof and indestructable from the Ns in my family, in other words, have I  derived a sort of twisted personal power from NOT allowing myself to have a voice or needs or individuality, so that they cannot turn on me and trounce on me?  I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do.  Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?

Violet

[Hermes]

Hello Violet:

I can see that you probably do not want to get into any kind of argument with your M. In any case, "conversation" (the word makes me laugh in the N-context) with an N will invariably become an argument.  A therapist once said to me, and it was good advice: don't be drawn into the game, just say "whatever you say", regardless of what the N-person says.  This was in the final days of the post-N experience (my case being different to yours, of course, as it was an N-husband). "whatever you say", or "anything you say", kind of defuses the situation, I found.

All the best
Hermes

[Violet]

A therapist once said to me, and it was good advice: don't be drawn into the game, just say "whatever you say", regardless of what the N-person says. 
Hermes

Yes, Hermes, I think that may be what I mean.  PS, my first H was an abusing, addicted, charming, law breaking, cheating (as in shagging everyone he could get his hands on, including while I was in the hospital having our first child) Narcissist.  I was married to him for 3 years and finally ran away....   He nearly destroyed my sanity, or what was left of it after my FOO was done with me.  Wow, I guess that makes me a survivor.   
Thanks for writing....   Violet

[Bella_French]

Hello,

Does this make any sense?  My Nmother (hope it is ok to call her that, she does not have a formal diagnosis, just my belief is that she fits the criteria) just called this morning wanting information about my grown kids.  Since I started hearing alarm bells, I used a ploy to disengage that works well ("I am right in the middle of something, mom, not a good time, so can't talk, bye!"), but thinking about the conversations I usually have with her, I wonder if I have used voicelessness and subjugating personal needs as a way to remain aloof and indestructable from the Ns in my family, in other words, have I  derived a sort of twisted personal power from NOT allowing myself to have a voice or needs or individuality, so that they cannot turn on me and trounce on me?  I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do.  Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?

Violet

Dear Violet,

I do the same thing, and I use it as a survival tool. I don't think N's can be trusted with knowing your real feelings, or even your real needs; they become a part of you that can be manipulated and used as leverage.

The tricky part is making sure you only use this tactic with N's, not with everyone. `Hiding' is an intimacy killer.

I relate to your relationsip with your Mother, and the way you strive for honesty in a way that will not harm you. I am the same way with my mother.

X bella

[Gabben]

Hi Violet,  

It makes great sense - basically what you are doing is respecting your own limits with your family and mother because you know that she, or they, are not capable or will not respect your limits. You are wise and intuitive to to disengage this way. If you were to be direct and say something like "you know I really do not feel comfortable talking about my children with you." it could set your mom off, correct?

My sister, brother and I do this with our mom. My younger brother actually taught my older sister and I how to do exactly what you described in your post. When my moms calls we have chit chat, small talk, that consists of mostly what is happening in her life. But when the conversation turns to us and she begins to become invasive or starts crossing our limits we pretend like suddenly we have to get off the phone. For the most part I keep my dialogue short and sweet with my N mom. It is the only way for me to not get emotionally drained and to not get sucked into her drama and games.

Hope this helps and welcome to the board!

Here is a blog spot article about thought crimes.

http://narcissists-suck.blogspot.com/2007/10/thought-crimes.html

[Violet]

The tricky part is making sure you only use this tactic with N's, not with everyone. `Hiding' is an intimacy killer.


X bella

Uh, oh, I need to work on this.  I think I have been "hiding" most of my life....  V

[Violet]

Hi Violet, 

It makes great sense - basically what you are doing is respecting your own limits with your family and mother because you know that she, or they, are not capable or will not respect your limits. You are wise and intuitive to to disengage this way. If you were to be direct and say something like "you know I really do not feel comfortable talking about my children with you." it could set your mom off, correct?

Yes, this would set my Nmom off and cause me to listen to stuff designed to make me feel guilty, thank you for helping me see it this way and also for the link to the article.  V

[Hopalong]

Hi Violet,
What kind of information did she want?

Hops

[Iphi]

Violet you wrote:

I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do.  Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?

It makes complete sense to me and I think it is great.  I've only been starting to implement this practice over the past couple of years as I have (finally) been learning about N-ism and finally coming out of the forest of family enmeshment.  Every time I evade a pitfall or dodge a toxic interaction, I feel giddy with delight.  I spent years falling into every pitfall and stumbling predictably into each and every toxic trap.  Or so it feels.  I guess I see interacting this way as skilled and tempered and proactive.

On the other hand, what I think of in my own life as hiding is - my family of origin treats my opinions, interests, preferences, observations and perceptions with contempt, or patronizing, or rejection etc.  Especially when I was a girl, this was incredibly painful.  This is together with being parentified and forced into caretaking and told in so many ways that wanting something for myself or having a preference or opinion was selfish - also squashed that sense of personal agency and autonomy which is so important to living your own life.  I got to a point where I could not tell you what I wanted.  I did not know what I wanted.  I did not know I could want or allow myself to have a want.  I would rather say - what do you want to me do?  What do you want me to want, that is what I will want.  It was hiding but something way beyond hiding.  When I wound up in therapy the T would repeatedly return to asking me what I wanted, or asking me to list things I liked, things I was good at, things I had skills or abilities in.  Couldn't say.  Choked. 

This inability to come forward to express things that are really important to me is still probably my number one issue.  I can't go in the direction of my heart's desire basically.  I can't even know what it is, really. 

So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out.  I guess to me the difference is - do I know what I think and feel??  If I do, then it's okay to decide not to share.  But to me that is a very different place than being so squashed, so blighted, so intimidated that you are beyond despair about having a thought or feeling in the first place because of being in a place of just - wrongness.  Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm writing too vaguely?

And welcome Violet!

[Hopalong]

Iphi, you are eloquent.
Truly.

Perhaps that's one thing you may want...
to perceive your own rare gifts.

love
Hops

[Violet]

Hi Violet,
What kind of information did she want?

Hops

Well, actually it was pretty innocuous just contact info, etc.  Seemed to trigger a gut reaction of fear, I don't know....  V

[Iphi]

Hey Violet - I think most everybody around here believes in - 'Trust your gut!'   

[Hermes]

Hello Violet:

Your reaction was the way people react to Ns.  I can recognise that. I read a poster once say that the NPdisordered person seems to generate "a sense of impending doom".  So, it is not what the N says or asks, but the feeling the very sound of his or her voice generates. In fact, they can make you want to scream.

All the best
Hermes

[Violet]

Violet you wrote:

I often feel elated and sort of euphoric when I come away from a conversation with her or a sibling and realize I did not "give any part of my self away?" Since I do not believe in lying, and am trying to avoid falling into the trap of lying, this is not always easy to do.  Does that make any sense or is it too idiotic?

It makes complete sense to me and I think it is great.  I've only been starting to implement this practice over the past couple of years as I have (finally) been learning about N-ism and finally coming out of the forest of family enmeshment.  Every time I evade a pitfall or dodge a toxic interaction, I feel giddy with delight.  I spent years falling into every pitfall and stumbling predictably into each and every toxic trap.  Or so it feels.  I guess I see interacting this way as skilled and tempered and proactive.

On the other hand, what I think of in my own life as hiding is - my family of origin treats my opinions, interests, preferences, observations and perceptions with contempt, or patronizing, or rejection etc.  Especially when I was a girl, this was incredibly painful.  This is together with being parentified and forced into caretaking and told in so many ways that wanting something for myself or having a preference or opinion was selfish - also squashed that sense of personal agency and autonomy which is so important to living your own life.  I got to a point where I could not tell you what I wanted.  I did not know what I wanted.  I did not know I could want or allow myself to have a want.  I would rather say - what do you want to me do?  What do you want me to want, that is what I will want.  It was hiding but something way beyond hiding.  When I wound up in therapy the T would repeatedly return to asking me what I wanted, or asking me to list things I liked, things I was good at, things I had skills or abilities in.  Couldn't say.  Choked. 

This inability to come forward to express things that are really important to me is still probably my number one issue.  I can't go in the direction of my heart's desire basically.  I can't even know what it is, really. 

So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out.  I guess to me the difference is - do I know what I think and feel??  If I do, then it's okay to decide not to share.  But to me that is a very different place than being so squashed, so blighted, so intimidated that you are beyond despair about having a thought or feeling in the first place because of being in a place of just - wrongness.  Does that make sense? I'm not sure if I'm writing too vaguely?

And welcome Violet!

There is so much here to think about.  I vibrate to everything you stated!  I must say, this in particular underscores the current state of my being:  "I got to a point where I could not tell you what I wanted.  I did not know what I wanted.  I did not know I could want or allow myself to have a want.  I would rather say - what do you want to me do?  What do you want me to want, that is what I will want. " 

Also I fear and resist interactions with my family because they automatically try to squeeze me into a mold that does not fit me and is so uncomfortable.  They do not know who I am.  This is lack of respect at its most basic level. 

I especially like your term "the forest of family enmeshment."  That is so well put....Violet

[Gabben]

So I feel that choosing not to speak because of using foresight and experience can be skillful and wise and making a choice not to be reactive or to lash out. 

So true - and how I need to keep working on this - separating out my old past hurts and anger to know when I am being reactive and simply setting a firm limit to never lash out.

In AA we say progress not perfection, which I am so glad because I tend to shame myself for not being perfect or for lashing out. But I have realized that practicing not lashing out is like emtional spiritual exercise the more I dicipline myself the stronger the UN-reactive mucsle gets. I say I don't want to lash out ever again.

Good post, thanks!