Shame and anger - why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger?

[Gabben]

This past year has been one of deep healing and looking into another deep level of shame around my abandonment issues as well as I had experienced awakening to my mothers N traits and behaviors and how they deeply wounded me as baby and as a toddler.

One of the things that triggered me into all of this pain were my resentments. Last year I found myself awaking every morning filled with self-rightous anger at others in my life. Although I rarely acted on these feelings, when I did, such as write someone who hurt me an angry letter once, telling them what I felt and what I really thought, I was made by certain people to feel ashamed for it.

My behavior in the past is and has been critical of others, yet to keep it in perspective and not shame myself as some sort of "unsafe" person and to see myself as having a combination of loving and unloving traits at different times in my life is the key.

Also, to keep reminding myself that how others see me is none of my business, what matters the most is how God sees me.

Today, I have shaming thoughts. I feel that sometimes people here are trying to tell me something, as if I do not already know...I feel as though I should grab a stick and club myself so that people here can feel better about themselves. Yet, I know that is not the case and that people here are not that passive -- That is just me condemning me.

One thing I have learned is that in order to be truly helpful to others we have to love, love and love. For the most part this is my number one goal in life, forgiving my parents used to be the number one goal. But now I know that I have forgive them AND love them.

The anger and deep hurt in my heart just keeps coming up. I awake in the morning hurting, I open my eyes and hot tears stroll down my face. I feel the aloneness of that little girl who at age 4 had no one. No one to see her, adore her, hold her, pay attention to her, protect her. Her pain is not my pain...it is her pain.

Lise

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
   I understand that you may be feeling that people are saying "passive " things.Women fight in more passive ways.It is just a reality Maybe, they are, maybe not.I have done passive things on the board, at times ,and people have done it to me. You are right that it doesn't really matter,but it is hard to ignore other's reactions to us, b/c we are social creatures,by nature.
  *I* hear you putting too much pressure on yourself to "love". I hear it. I could be wrong. I see you needing to be MORE selfish,more "N", if you will.
  Maybe, I am reading "myself" in to you, but *I* need to be more *N" and less 'little voice"(LV).
  I know that I am missing some of your points. If you could clarify with more specifics, I would appreciate it.             Love    Ami

[Gabben]

well, yeah...

I guess we get angry about boundary violations, mostly. And the people who violated the boundary don't want to accept responsibility for the violation (maybe even that there WAS a violation - denial) and because they don't acknowledge their responsibility.... there's this floating cloud of shame/blame...

just as quickly as they deny the violation belongs to them, unsafe people will try to stick the cloud to YOU.

You don't have to accept it.

Hi Amber,

Thanks,

Can you be a little more clear as to what you are saying?

Lise

[Gabben]

Hi (((Ami))),

Bottom line - I have a voice in my head that tells me that I need to be perfect, RIGHT NOW.

I have a voice in my head that says "how dare you ever lash out -- wrong, shame, wrong --- you deserve to be abandoned, ignored and rejected....then the rage and anger starts... the voice says "bad Lise bad Lise" how could you feel angry...anger is bad and your feeling it makes you bad!"

It is my mom's voice and it is my voice from when I was abandoned and I needed to defend myself. People without deep abandonment issues will not completely understand, I understand, it is OK.

[Gabben]

You don't have to accept it. I mean - who died & made them King?
If they were wrong about the boundary violation in the first place - you surely don't have to feel any shame or accept any blame for THEIR transgression.

If there's no "owner" of the cloud... doesn't it just evaporate?

Well that helps a little bit but are you talking about the people on the board, or in general, or my mom, who are you talking about?

Can you please, if you can, and are not too busy, take the time to be a little more clear with me. I feel as though I am supposed to read between the lines here but I may just not be too smart and getting this.

Thank you, Amber.

Lise

[Ami]

OK---THAT is clear enough for my addled brain.
Yes, I still agree with my former post----you (and I) need more "N"--more   "me".  My little dog.Mimi ,has such a strong life force. When I feed the dog's treats, she jumps up with gusto, to "seize' her part of life.She does not feel guilty or underserving..I think healthy people can say "Me"and "I" and feel strongly about it.
  I see THAT as our path ,Lise. We(if I am not being presumptuous) need to have a confident, strong stance and be comfortable with that strong sense of an *I*.I think that I understand abandonment issues. I feel like I have a ton of them(lol)
 I did not feel that I deserved the basic life nutrients ,so I think that I understand deep self hatred.
  It feels very scary and wrong to claim our value. It feels like an invisible hand will come to slap us. We feel we will be shunned or punished. I understand this , very well.
  I had an epiphany ,today. I have gotten a precious human love and I 'know" that God's love is so much deeper and unconditional  than any human love.
  I took God's love in to my heart ,in a new way ,today. I had, actually, never done it before, at all. I realized that for God to love us ,we just have  to be "there',like a lamp or a tree. We did not have to do anything or measure up.
  I think that you are afraid of your power and of claiming your 'beauty" and magnificance.
   Compost what does not  fit. Forgive me, if I overstepped my bounds. Everything was meant in love.     Love    Ami

[Gabben]

I accepted the shame cloud that was shoved at me....    THEN.
I refused it....    NOW.

YES --- EXACTLY!

Cloud of shame/blame evaporates (over time, sure) and so does the anger.

This is insightful....going to contemplate this more.

I don't wake up angry or in pain any mornings, anymore. Refusing the shame is the first step.

Are you comparing yourself to me or are you trying to offer me hope? Is life a healing competition? Where is the compassion?

After I spent 4 year in intensive therapy, back in my twenties reliving the trauma and re-feeling the old pain, I thought I was finished --I thought that I would never have to go through the pain again.

But deeper and deeper I go. Now 6 years after those four intensive years, not counting the two years before that I worked to just overcome the defensive behaviors, I still have painful memories - Am I supposed to be ashamed for still hurting after all of this time?? Or should I just shut up and get over it?

But then, she wasn't allowed to be angry - and she was angry about that too!

Exactly once again -- this is exactly what I am talking about...my anger...not being allowed to be angry. But the key is to take responsibility for adult thinking and behaving and to not let my inner wounded girl act out....but sometimes she does because she is not perfect. I feel that when she does act out that people assume that I have NEVER awakened to my deeper abandonment issues and that I am just beginning to heal. That is because they can't understand because they project themselves, some of us have deeper wounds, deeper hurts, deeper sufferings, that is just a fact. If you  have not suffered to the levels or depths then the stuff I write here is not going to resonate with you, I understand.

All she wanted was to be able to experience her justifiable anger - and sadness. And have someone understand. And finally, she has me.

That is all I want too, thanks.

Lise

[teartracks]

Hi Lise,

Hugs.

tt

[Gabben]

Yes,it is more clear, Amber -- I have been through all of this too. This is just a deeper layer being triggered by the unsafe people on this board. Who act perfect and without flaw and then turn around and point out in passive ways how bad you are.

But it is all like you said, it is about feeling the hurt and anger over the injustice of the abandonment, that is the pain.

When the old pain comes up it colors our world.

Just this weekend my T allows me to express it, "express it.....get it out.......yes,  I feel hatred! But I am OK.

Please do not make me feel ashamed because I hurt...PLEASE!

Lise

[Gabben]

PS - our posts are crossing in cyberspace....

it was compassion for a level of pain I "heard" in your first post that made me post quickly - maybe prematurely.

Thank you Amber - I appreciate your quick response, I appreciate your time and your energy!!

I'm just so hurting right now that my world is colored and I cannot see all that clearly even though you ARE clear.

Thanks for you heart, time and care.

((((AMBER))))

Lise

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
  I am trying to just let feelings go by--even "bad" ones. I try to let thoughts go by, too--even "bad ones. I feel much better about myself when I can do this.
  When I was healthier, I figured that if I had a "bad" feeling(anger, fear etc), it was just human. Abused people think that they are "bad" for the same things that "normal" people call 'human",IMO.        Ami

[Bella_French]

Gabben,

I think you are correct, in that myself and Hermes (I expect we are the ones who triggered this post?) feel very comfortable expressing our voices, even when it involves expressing a difference of opinion. In my opinion this is healthy and a foundation fof recovery from voicelessness, and I wish you felt the same way about expressing your voice, rather than angry at us for expressing ours.

I don't know how to help you with the sense of `shame' an alternate voice triggers within you.I think i can understand it, but I can't accommodate it without shutting myself down.

 But perhaps it would help to understand we are not responsible for causing your shame, nor do I personally believe you are shameful in any way. Heck, Gabben, you are smart, caring, thoughtful, moral, insightful woman. By token of your intelligence and verbosity, you are going to express strong opinions, and you are going to frequently engage in conversations with others who hold strong opinions *because they respect you enough to do so*.

So let me say upfront, I am going to continue to express my voice and my opinions, and I hope you will continue to express yours.

Love and hugs,
X bella

[Gabben]

Gabben,

I think you are correct, in that myself and Hermes (I expect we are the ones who triggered this post?) feel very comfortable expressing our voices, even when it involves expressing a difference of opinion. In my opinion this is healthy and a foundation fof recovery from voicelessness, and I wish you felt the same way about expressing your voice, rather than angry at us for expressing ours.

Actuallly - no Bella - It was not you and or hermes

...express away...an may I also express?


The person who triggered this knows it and they love doing it and they sit back in delight as I squirm because they are a psychopaths and watching me squirm is exactly what makes them tick.



Lise

[Bella_French]

Thats good to know, thanks Gabben.  I didn't see you disagree with anyone else on the `safe people' thread, so i assumed that you were referring to us. I must have missed something(which I tend to do, being in another time zone).

I am sorry you are feeling persecuted by someone, that is so nasty!

X bella

[Gabben]

No worries, Bella.

I do not care that we disagree and I do not care that you have different views. I mean I care, but it does not bother me or trigger me the way people who act blameless and supremely perfect trigger me.

Lise