Shame and anger - why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger?

[Gabben]

Lise, I need to avoid some of my own old, engrained, bad habits here, too. One of those is judging people with whom I disagree.
Therefore, I am working really hard to attach no judgment to those here whose perspectives differ from my own... and... also... I think I'd be doing disrespect to you, as though you can't stand up for your own self?!... if I chimed in every time I agree/disagree with this one or that one.

Umm... feel free to ask me to hush any time. Sometimes I need it... and if I don't think I do need it, I'll say so, but not before giving the request due consideration.

Smiling now.

Love to you,
Carolyn

Carolyn,

I have judgemental problems too -- got to work on that.

Your support is great. Even if you need to point things out to me about me about what I am doing, it actually makes me respect you, I'm OK with you, now - you have worked on yourself and it shows -- you feel safe to me, even when we disagree.


Just ask Ami - her and I disagree as well as just this morning we had a spat...but we have committed to never leave each other and to be honest and to never make each other feel ashamed. I sense you get that.


Also, we are still getting to know each other -- it takes time.

When I see people being aggressive towards my friend Ami here I could not just sit back and let it happen. I had to speak up.

I see that is part of what you are doing too, perhaps?

Also, know that if you do not support me or stand up for me - It is OK - you do not have to stand up for me for me to like you and to hear your voice.

It is like Leah said - what you see with me is what you get.

Thanks (((Carolyn)))

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Lise,

Just some more rather random thoughts...

It's so rare, to me, to hear someone else who's willing to admit that she has problems with being judgmental
and so I have a very strong admiration for your honesty in that.

It's equally rare, I've found, to encounter someone who's willing to receive feedback... to be accountable for her actions and not simply dismiss
anyone who might take issue with her, or unfavorably compare her words to her actions.

There was a time when I felt myself to be uniquely qualified to provide feedback... lol.
Then I started to receive some of my own, and poorly!
That experience balanced me out considerably... heh.

I do need to be cautious, so as not to slip back into old patterns of black and white thinking.
Your consistent emphasis of the fact that we are all, each, a mixture of good and bad... well, that's encouraged me enormously.

On the issue of conflict, the primary definition of the word, when used as a noun *per dictionary.com* is:
"a fight, battle, or struggle, esp. a prolonged struggle; strife"

I don't see you engaging in conflicts. Rather, I see you trying to prevent them... particularly those vague, hazy, nearly subliminal,
passive ones which qare often never quite allowed to float to the surface. In that, you have really impacted my life.
What some folks here are interpreting as accusations against them, I am seeing as a shining of light upon your internal workings...
a very determined effort on your part to be transparent and vulnerable... and that takes a great deal of courage, I believe.
Far more courage and strength than going along pretending like you don't think as you do.

Is it paranoid to think that some people have hidden agendas.. possibly hidden even to themselves?
No, I don't think so. I think it's realistic.

Is it accusatory to express your thoughts about what you suspect might be motivating someone else's actions?
Again, no, I don't think so.
I think it's a reach toward another... a stretch for intimacy... an invitation to another to get to know you,
a request to the other, to take a step toward growth,
a laying aside of the self in baring your innermost thoughts to public exposure.

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I'm seeing it... as the direct opposite of the closed system in which I was raised,
and where I've spent so much of my life, where people pretend to be loving and caring, but couldn't care less what you really think
or how you truly feel.

So... thank you.

Love,
Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

By the way, Lise, I think that maybe the simplest answer to the question you've asked on this thread -

okay, well, first of all, I'd re-write the question to say - Why do people seem to think we should feel ashamed about our anger?
(because nobody can make us feel anything)

and my answer is -

Because people are ashamed of their own anger (or afraid of it.)

Love,
Carolyn

[Ami]

I have not had the mental powers to  jump in to this thread,but have been following it. Carolyn expressed my thoughts , perfectly. Thank you Carolyn. I love you and value you, Lise, so much.I am very grateful that you are my friend. It is my honor that YOU consider me a friend.         Love    Ami

[Gabben]

Thank you Carolyn and Ami - I am kind of speachless...if you can imagine that ?

Carolyn your post will help me heal -- there was a release of tears as I read.

Thank you both (((((Carolyn))))) ((((((AMI)))))))

Blessings,
Lise

[Certain Hope]

((((((((Lise)))))))) I'm so glad. I can feel you healing, and it's a lovely thing...
and you've already helped me to take some giant leaps in that direction,
so that now I feel confident that I can tune out any nonsense which might still be swirling around me, refusing to let it in, while continuing  toward the goal... sound health in mind and emotions!

Blessings to you, with Love,
Carolyn

[Ami]

What happened here is the best usage of the board(IMO) ---deep healing and finding our true selves under  the lies.      Ami

[Hermes]

"""Is it paranoid to think that some people have hidden agendas.. possibly hidden even to themselves?
No, I don't think so. I think it's realistic.

Is it accusatory to express your thoughts about what you suspect might be motivating someone else's actions?
Again, no, I don't think so. ""  (Carolyn)

I am still waiting to hear what my "hidden agenda" is supposed to be LOL.

Hermes

[Certain Hope]

Hi, Hermes,

I don't really know whether you have a hidden agenda or not... or what that hidden agenda might be.

Also, I'm aware that maybe the term sounds alot more sinister than I intended in that quote of mine you posted, but - as far as I'm concerned - a hidden agenda or motivation need not be for wicked purposes, at all... simply hidden, as in unrevealed... even to ourselves.
I've certainly encountered some issues like that within myself... concerns and deeply buried struggles which negatively impacted my attempts to relate to others... until they were brought out into the light.

We can't share with anyone what we don't yet know for ourselves... and we can't receive for ourselves what we don't yet know we need. Some of the particularly painful struggles here seem to occur between people who are just so basically different in styles... and it doesn't have to be that way, I don't think, unless one is determined to think that her style is superior to another.

And that is all my rambling for now... lol.

Love to you, sincerely,
Carolyn

[Hermes]

LOL Carolyn.  I can assure you I have no hidden agenda. 
Hidden agendas can consume so much energy, don't you think.
As for superiority, well I think we can safely leave that kind of agenda to the N.

My own view is that things are often simpler than we think, and that it is inadvisable to complicate things unnecessarily.

Best to you.
Hermes

[Certain Hope]

LOL Carolyn.  I can assure you I have no hidden agenda. 
Hidden agendas can consume so much energy, don't you think.
As for superiority, well I think we can safely leave that kind of agenda to the N.

My own view is that things are often simpler than we think, and that it is inadvisable to complicate things unnecessarily.

Best to you.
Hermes

Hi, Hermes,

Well, you're far ahead of me, then. Personally, I can't be so certain that my own heart won't deceive me.

To the best of my conscious awareness, I am not trying to advance any concealed agenda, but on the other hand, I am learning more all the time about hidden motivators which lie beneath the surface of conscious awareness.

What you've noted about energy consumption is a great point, too! The next time I am feeling particularly worn, due to no obvious reasons, I'll remember to take a look into my hidden agendas file 

(((((((Hermes))))))

Carolyn

[Hermes]

LOL. Carolyn.  A little tip: keep as far away from that hidden agendas stuff as you can!

Hermes

[Certain Hope]

umm... once again, I just realized something...

In the event that I am contributing here to the prolongation (if that's a word) of posting on this thread againt Lise's wishes, I want to apologize - I am sorry, Lise - and say that I'd forgotten which thread was what and that you'd wanted to maintain this one as per the topic.

Sincerely,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

Thank you Carolyn since I know that you have no hidden agenda with me now -- I feel safe with your posting on my thread in any regards.

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Dear Hermes,

When I first signed on the board and noticed you posting here again, with no regard for my previous limits and expressions, I felt a pang of fear and hurt.


The topic of this thread was Shame and anger and why do people make us feel ashamed for our anger. I have not seen one reference to my topic from you nor have I seen an ounce of empathy or concern from you here on this thread for my feelings or the deep pain that I have expressed or even just simply my presence. On the contrary, the behavior by you towards me has been exceptionally inconsiderate and intentionally hurtful -  that leaves me with a question, can you honestly admit to not having hidden agendas?

Please feel free to discuss whatever you want on this board but I will ask again, for the third time, please respect the topic here on this thread, and that this is my thread and that I am reading this thread.


Your behavior has show a clear disrespect for my feelings and limits. It is OK to express your self - but at some point, myself included we have to realize how our behavior and voice affects others.

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Thank you Carolyn since I know that you have no hidden agenda with me now -- I feel safe with your posting on my thread in any regards.

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Lise

Thank you, Lise. I don't want to take for granted the privilege of being given the benefit of the doubt... or to be careless with your trust.

This is still an important thread, I believe, as anger is so often avoided (by me, at least) as though it were the cause of conflict...
when, in deed, I don't believe it is. According to the Word, it's pride which lies at the root of contention, and not anger. That, I know, to be a fact.  In your anger, sin not. What's the sin here? Not anger... but rather an improper management of that anger, or - to be more specific - allowing that anger to develop into an unhealthy root of bitterness.

Just my general thoughts...
with love,
Carolyn

Carolyn