Author Topic: Emotional Communication  (Read 7773 times)

SilverLining

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2008, 01:46:07 PM »

The basic units of emotional communication during everyday interactions have been called the bid and the response (Driver and Gottman 2004). These units are so important that researchers can now predict relationship outcomes by observing the bid-response patterns in a couple’s everyday interactions.

The bid is an initiation of interaction (Driver and Gottman 2004).
It is the way a person expresses “I want to feel connected to you,” although it may have an endless variety of forms and content. That is, bids are often not a literal request for attention and connection but may be ostensibly about something else. For example, a woman might say to her husband, “Honey, I had a bad day today.” On the surface, this is a statement of fact. It provides the husband with information.
The bid may be verbal or nonverbal. A bid may be extended nonverbally, for example with a touch (maybe playful or flirty), a facial expression (a smile, a roll of the eyes, or cocked eyebrows), or a sound (a laugh, sigh, or snort).
If the person chooses to connect by verbal means, the form might be a question, a simple statement of perceived fact, an explicit invitation, or a fragment of a thought or feeling. A bid can be laced with an emotional overtone using tone of voice, word choice, or expression.

The response is how the other person handles the bid. Besides the specific content, a response can communicate that the respondent is paying attention to and cares about the bidder. Intimate partners generally expect their bids to be met with understanding and empathy. In the example, if the husband simply responded “Thanks for the information,” the wife would be greatly disappointed and probably irritated. She expects him to respond to her underlying need for his support and attention. Something like, “Oh, I’m sorry, honey. What happened?” Responses can be characterized as turning toward, turning away from, or turning against the bidder (Driver and Gottman 2004). A partner who turns toward may acknowledge the other’s statement, make eye contact, or touch the other’s hand. A partner who ignores the other’s statement or averts eye contact is turning away. Turning against the other may involve active negative responses such as responding contemptuously to a statement."


In order to be consciously more aware of how I'm interacting with folks in my life, I think I'll start to keep a little bid/response journal of my own...
should be very enlightening!




This is great information.  I read about some of the underlying research several years ago.  The researchers can predict the outcome of a marriage based on 15 minutes of taped conversation.  If an interaction pattern for a couple is not 80% positive the marriage is in danger of dissolving. 

Given the idea it takes 80% positive interactions to make a good relationship, what kind of percentages do we get in our relationships with N's?
I tried analyzing the pattern of interactions with my father, and it worked out to around 10% or less positive for me.   It sure opened my eyes to hidden dimensions of the relationship. 

Confounded

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2008, 06:48:36 PM »
Quote
Given the idea it takes 80% positive interactions to make a good relationship, what kind of percentages do we get in our relationships with N's?
I tried analyzing the pattern of interactions with my father, and it worked out to around 10% or less positive for me.   It sure opened my eyes to hidden dimensions of the relationship. 

Wow.  You got the data.  How did you set up the experiment?  Did you bid (say something engaging) deliberately?  Did you always let your father make the first move?  Did you try to interact in whatever way happened?  Other details?  This is very interesting...

axa

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2008, 07:48:41 PM »
Confounded.

I read with interest your post about your H.  I don't know if you know about my "relationship" with XN but in some way it mirrors your experience.  I do think Ns thrive on depressed fragile women and if they find one who is not like that they will do the best to turn you into one.  This is my experience.  Xn's xwife had mental health problems, she had psychotic episodes - according to him, and I think this is true, was severly depressed and eventually left him and her children.  What I did not realise at the time I was hearing this story was that, and I have no doubt of this, she may have been fragile/depressed but he certainly contributed greatly to her condition.  He asked for my opinion on her when we first me, having descriped her behaviour, which I thought seemed completely disassociated.......I suggested she may have experienced some abuse..............WAS I RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!  When he met me I think I was such a wonder to him, the opposite to him in many ways, outgoing, upbeat, clear etc..........the longer I stayed with him the more I became depressed, had to struggle with holding onto any self esteem.

He read the literature on NPD and agreed that this is what is "wrong" with him.  Now he has a perfect excuse for his behaviour well "I am not normal" so now he has permission to behave in any way he likes.  I was unemployed when I left him, had moved etc and I have done so well.  The energy I spent trying to stay ok around him was incredible and only when I dumped him did I realise how much life he had sucked out of me. 

His xwife, who is rather devious also, went back to him so I guess they are playing out their sado/machocist roles.  I have no pity for either of them as they both colluded in my abuse.  For you Confounded, I know there is so much available for you.  I understand you are where you are right now but maybe considering a little fantasy of an Nfree life might prompt you to allowing what might be possible in.  I don't know if any of this makes sense because I am so exhausted but I wanted to respond because you post was familiar and I wanted to you there is life after Ns............ mine, even with the blips, has turned out pretty nice.

Hugs to you,

axa

Certain Hope

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2008, 08:00:46 PM »
Dear Confounded,

No doubt I am projecting, but this guy sounds horribly familiar... so here is my absolutely unprofessional and unguarded opinion:

I'm not so sure the toxic veggies were an accident and I don't think he's as dumb as he might appear to you at times.

He sounds like a cerebral N with an extra helping of sadism... and I think he's playing a very elaborate game, all the while thinking that he's pulling the wool over your eyes.

Yes, NPD will pretend stupidity. Really.

Please be very cautious.

With love,
Carolyn

P.S.  Tjr!  That's amazing. Ten percent sounds about right, yes.

On edit:  C, I came back to this, thinking of softening the tone, because I know how it sounds.. but then I read your complete posting again and I must leave it. This is a deadly person about whom you're writing... that's what comes through to me.


It's a very real concern to me that you wrote:
I think that he would like it if I would just die, and he could start over with somebody else, somebody who cold never activate his insecurities. 

That feeling is coming from somewhere, and I don't think it's your imagination. At the end, my ex lovingly sharpening a buck knife in my kitchen and there was no question in my mind what he wanted to do with it.

Also I wanted to tell you that my ex-husband had a history with those ridiculous games, especially those where he was the supreme ruler and could not be questioned... some pretty bizarre stuff, really. I went through the same scenario - tossing the game, replacing it in a moment of weakness, tossing it again. Didn't matter. As I'm sure you know, you can't keep him out of that mode by refusing him a game disc... he will find another way.

I just can't help but think that he's the cat and you're the mouse here. I do not doubt your intellect... but there's nothing like npd in devilish craftiness and the manipulator, especially, absolutely thrives on catching you off guard.





« Last Edit: February 04, 2008, 08:58:57 PM by Certain Hope »

Confounded

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2008, 10:30:05 PM »
Thanks to both of you, axa and Carolyn.  I find it quite a relief to talk with people who "get" the whole N thing.  Most people think that N's are very conceited, and essentially secure in their own self-worth.  That's incorrect.  People who are secure don't flip out when somebody points out a tiny little error.  They assimilate that info, and thank the person for the taking the time to provide it to them.  N's can't deal with it.  Their egos are as fragile as a butterfly wing.  Poor things.  If one is wrong and fails to admit it, then one is wrong twice.  That's no way to live.  It's sad.

I may not have been clear about the toxic tomatoes.  H ate them too.  Why he didn't get colorectal cancer is a mystery, since he has a family history of the disease.  H's first wife saw to it that he had a colonoscopy at age 45 because of his family history, and no problems were found.  She didn't have a colonoscopy, because she had no family history and at age 45 insurance wouldn't pay for it.  If she had gotten the same screening test she got for H, they would have discovered her cancer.  By the time she had symptoms, she was doomed. 

The toxic tomatoes were just the dim-witted practice of a couple that couldn't get much right.  (I'm not kidding, they also planted a redbud tree with the root ball still wrapped in nylon mesh.  The roots fought their way out of the top of the non-biodegradable bag, sprang up out of the ground into a gnarled mass, and still run away from that hideous root knot across the surface of lawn to this day.  I could go on about the long list of other stupid things they did.  But I'll spare you.)  H really believed that whatever they did was just fine, and I was just waaaay too picky.  My own detailed explanations, based on prior study, made no headway.  H was unaccustomed to being around a woman who knew so much and he hated being informed of simple facts.  I had to provide him with proof every time, in order to get his agreement.  It was hugely frustrating.   He now concedes that it was not a good idea to grow tomatoes in ultra-toxic chemicals (so toxic that one isn't supposed to allow them to tough the skin, as it causes liver cancer, forget about eating the stuff!). 

After a few years of this, I have gotten to a point where I just do whatever I want.  I don't explain much at all now.  He doesn't care about learning anyway, or at least he cares more about not being told that he has been doing something wrong.  The good news is that my H's stupidity tends to be of the genuine variety.  No, wait; that's the bad news.

On a couple of occasions I have discussed all of this with H's mother.  She advised that H's father was the same way.  She didn't use the words pigheaded and bad tempered, but that was the gist of it.  She told me that she simply ignored him when he was like that.  I have tried to avoid that tactic.  But now I find that it's most effective.

When dealing with N'ish behavior, my tool belt has only the following: ignoring him, responding with one-word answers, walking away, letting him have his way, letting him have the last word, making him think that what I want was his idea, avoiding him, or being super nice to him, like nothing is or was wrong, to keep him happy (not grumpy/raging).  BTW, when he's not grumpy/raging he often tries to let me have what I want.  It's his agitation that I seek to avoid.  I find myself in a sort of motherly role, almost as if he were a toddler.

There is NO point is discussing our relationship, nor his behavior, in an adult way.  I am able to get him to be more polite, say "please" and "thank you" and so forth, if I say what mommies say, "How do you ask?"  He knows the answer.  It's "Please."  He doesn't like being reminded to say it.  But I don't like being asked to do something without a "please" included.  It's common courtesy.  If I say it on the phone at 11 a.m. he will have gotten over it by the time I see him in the evening.  He's such a good boy, and so cute too.  He does such a good job at work.  (Mommy's) so proud of him.

If anybody out there knows of other ways, beyond those listed above, to keep N's from getting agitated, or to avoid them when they are bent out of shape, I welcome your advice. 
« Last Edit: February 05, 2008, 01:56:33 AM by Confounded »

Certain Hope

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2008, 11:03:16 PM »
I get the picture, Confounded... and I'm so sorry.

There's no way humanly possible to prevent N-agitation, I don't believe... because it's self-generated and would occur even in a vacuum (physics will prove this one day  :P). I suppose it could be reduced by a practice of holding one's breath alternated with intermittent worship and consistent agreement with anything N says, no matter how ludicrous. Oh, and never smile, or laugh, or enjoy yourself in any way, shape, or form unless prepared for the punishment which will follow.
Absolute detachment and prayer... that's what I tried. Then he pulled a knife and the rest was his doing. Just please be careful.

Carolyn

Ami

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2008, 11:41:16 PM »
Gosh----This thread is upsetting!!!
Confounded, you sound very insighful about your situatiion.                            Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Confounded

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2008, 02:57:53 AM »
Sorry to be such a bummer.  This search for strategies is taking me into territory I never thought I'd travel.  Thank you all for your help.

I have noted some high levels of concern.  I do keep my eyes open for risks.  The risk aspect that worries me at this point is the stress.  I think that it's taking its toll.  To address this we are in the process of building a workout setup in the basement.  H is doing most of that work.     

This doesn't fit my H at all:

Quote
Oh, and never smile, or laugh, or enjoy yourself in any way, shape, or form unless prepared for the punishment which will follow.

I wonder if this is a distinction between the full NPD diagnosis and H's N tendencies diagnosis.  What H wants is for me to be calm, smiling, happy and accepting at all times.  He wants me to reflect back to him an image of him as the perfect husband, lover, father, intellect, worker, leader -- all perfection, all the time.  If I tell him something as minor as, for example, that a sentence requires a different word in order to be correct, he just hates it.  It's like a disruption in The Force for him.

Sometimes I think it might be interesting to count the number of perceived slights he can endure before he gets into a rage.  I am pretty sure that it works that way.  He rages.  Then it's out of his system, and he feels kind of bad about it.  So he's on good behavior.  Then something happens that agitates him slightly (he's given a request that he doesn't like, or in a tone that indicates he has forgotten something, or somebody says something negative about him or anything related to him, somebody disagrees with him, somebody makes him wait, etc.), it seems to be like a little chit goes onto his mental scale.  One, two, three chits won't tip the scales.  But eventually all those little chits, or one big one, pushes the total to critical mass.  The scales are tipped and he's going to have a hissy fit.  Poor baby.

He got used to bossing his first wife around.  I don't take orders well, especially not from somebody who generally can't keep up with me.  I'm a reasonable woman, and I work well with others.  But when he starts bossing me around like a big dumb man, he finds that he has a tiger by the tail.  He used to call me a "women's libber."  But he stopped that about two years ago.  I think that after I told him 3,674 times that it made him sound like an @sshole he decided that he needed to stop it.  My attitude can be pretty gender-neutral (I like the Vulcan way of thinking).  Perhaps he has actually learned to treat me with some respect.  I don't know and I hardly care at this point.

I'm just trying to get better at managing this problem, so that I can live my life without so much turmoil.     

Certain Hope

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2008, 07:26:52 AM »
Hi, Confounded,

I'm about to be very direct (I hope) and so please know that I don't intend any offense....

One thing is striking me above all, in your descriptions of this man you married, and that is the level of contempt which you're holding in your heart toward him.

Have you considered the effect that your attitudes toward him are having on your daughters?
I have three girls and wouldn't want any of my children to think that a man is some thing - an object - which she needs to learn to manage within a marriage context. (Wouldn't want my son to think the same toward women, either, of course.)

Carolyn

Hermes

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2008, 07:36:31 AM »
Dear Confounded:

In reply to your post can I just tell you that there is NO way of having a relationship at all with an individual who has NPD.  I am assuming your husband is NPD.  Yes?  In any case from the way you describe him, it sounds like it to me. 
My exNH was diagnosed with the disorder, (prior to which diagnosis I did not know what on earth was going on), and eventually I got to the point where I no longer cared.  All I needed, badly, was to get out of that toxic atmosphere, and recover myself.  The psych who diagnosed him gave me that advice, in the strongest terms. 
I will go so far as to say that you are describing my exNH. I would also advise caution. 
You cannot deal with a person who has NPD.  Nothing you say or do, or don't say or do will make a blind bit of difference.  All it does is drag you down, and cause unhappiness the like of which you would never know.

Take care
Hermes

Confounded

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2008, 10:35:51 AM »
Okay, I hear you.  The only thing that works is distance, and more is better.

You know, I don't think contempt is really where I am at this point.  It's more like pity.  If I put myself into that place, where every bit of factual information that disagrees with what I have in my head must be warded off, at all costs, I know that I would be pathetic.  Contempt?  No.  Disappointment?  Yes.  Sadness?  Definitely.  But mainly pity.  His sense of himself is so weak and tenuous.  It must be scary to feel that every differing fact is an attack, and to accumulate the those blows until he feels the need to counterattack.  It's like being possessed by demons, tilting at windmills.  It is a form of madness.  How could I not feel sorry for such a person?

Hermes, like you I could not figure out what this was.  Our second T was the one who laid it on me, finally, when H refused to see him anymore (all we did was go in there and fight). I asked him, "What IS this?  This inability to admit that he's wrong, when it's obvious that he is?"  The T said, "H has NARCISSISTIC TENDENCIES."  I said, "What's that?"  Like so many others, I thought of narcissism as something along the lines of a conceited sociopath.  Not.  The T explained a little about what N's experience, the fragile ego, especially stressing the fact that the N rage can be very dangerous, and that N's NEVER change.  (OMG!)

The T went on to tell me that his own father had N tendencies, and to comment that he couldn't imagine why H's first wife stayed with H, unless she needed a meal ticket.  I took all of that as a pretty strong indication that the T himself had big personal issues involving his N'ish father and his mother.  I asked him if he was telling me that I should leave H, and he told me that only I could make that decision.  But his opinion was clear, as were his issues.  THEN he told me that our therapy sessions were finished.  When I said that I was going to need some help getting through this, he told me, "No.  You can call me if you need me."  With that, having dumped this gigantic thing in my lap, he terminated my therapy.  He seemed to be trying to destabilize the situation, which read as trying to break us up because of his hatred for his father.  This was clearly malpractice, driven by his own issues.  I didn't file a complaint because I had bigger fish to fry.  I set about finding a real pro, whom we saw for a while.  He had a super-positive attitude and he seemed to "get" me.  I found it helpful.  But my vulnerability to being affected by H's N rage remained.

I have only recently deployed the strategy of diminished communication.  For a supposed genius, I can be pretty slow to come around.  H's mother, my mother, and probably all three of the T's that we saw told me that walking away from an argument with H was my best strategy.  I felt that walking away would be a) too weak a ploy for a modern woman, and b) insulting to H's intellect (if I gave up on discussions with him, that would be saying that he couldn't work his way through a logical argument).  Now, I can see that insulting or not, he CAN'T remain logical.  He is invested in maintaining the illusion that he can't be wrong, even if nobody (and I guess this may include him) actually believes it.  It is not an insult to acknowledge the Truth.

I think that the factor that is making all of this even more difficult for me to deal with, and for you to differentiate, is that this isn't a full NPD diagnosis.  It's some watered-down form of this syndrome.  I was feeling rather unfortunate, since my first H (also MBA, plus JD) was revealed as being a philandering pathological liar, with ADD and sociopathic tendencies.  (Why me?  Am I a magnet for weird people, or are most of them weird?)  I asked the T what percentage of the population has some kind of serious diagnosis.  He said, "Fifty percent."  Did I have one?  "No.  Maybe a touch of N, and a touch of OCD.  But nothing unusual."  Okay, back to the bad news.  Fifty percent of the population has something going on that's weird enough to warrant a diagnosis.  That means that Grandmother was right.  She always said, "If you get rid of one man, and get another man, you just trade one set of problems for another set of problems."  I am not up for an endless string of flawed relationships.  I think that I have to believe in my own ability to manage, especially now that I have finally wrapped my mind around the concept of diminished communcation.  H has been telling me for years to shut the h*ll up.  Guess what?  He was right.  When he's in one of his moods, his mind is closed anyway.  I am not here on this Earth to waste my time trying to force it open.   

As for the next generation, I hope that their view of all of this will enable them to start younger and try harder to "read" people better than I have, manage their relationships more deliberately than I have, and be more aware of the high probability that any given person is probably very strange once you get past the facade of normalcy.

Hermes

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2008, 10:43:41 AM »
Dear Confounded:

I suppose, at the end of the day, you and only you can decide how much of this you can take.  Perhaps your H does not have the disorder, NPD.  Does that really make a difference? 
It is what YOU want that matters.  An abuser is an abuser is an abuser.  You can try to close off from it, but I know from experience that it just did not work. 

I don't know what your options are, but no doubt you will be doing some serious thinking. 

All the best
Hermes

SilverLining

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2008, 12:56:31 PM »

Wow.  You got the data.  How did you set up the experiment?  Did you bid (say something engaging) deliberately?  Did you always let your father make the first move?  Did you try to interact in whatever way happened?  Other details?  This is very interesting...

Hi Confounded.  I have to admit up front my experiment wasn't very scientific, especially since I was fully involved in the process.  I have a degree in social science so I am always conscious of possible biases and the ways I could be deceiving myself.  I just tried to interact "normally" with my father on a several day visit and then made note of each interaction and whether it struck me as negative, positive, or neutral.   I had just read the Patricia Evans book on verbal abuse before this visit, which had given me new insight into covert verbal abuse.   Corrections, counterpoints, discounts,  "Yes but" statements,  e.t.c.. all count as at least mildly negative responses.  After the end of the visit I tallied up my notes and was shocked at how little positive interaction occurred over the visit.  Although he rarely is blatantly abusive, 80%-90% of the interactions are at least mildly negative or covertly abusive.   The counterpoint is his favored mode of response to most comments from others, even if he contradicts himself constantly. 

It's been hard to spot the pattern because much of the time the underlying topics seem trivial.  For instance, my father loves to do counterpoints about the weather.  I say "the weather forecasters are calling for snow tomorrow".  He replies "weather forecasters are wrong all the time, so no sense listening to them".  A sane person isn't going to get into an argument over this, so he gets away with a minor stab.

I have known for decades how drained and depressed I felt after spending any time with my father.  But it is only in recent years I started really understanding the pattern.  10% positive interaction just doesn't make for a good relationship. 



 

axa

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2008, 04:50:02 PM »
Confounded,

Please and Thanks...........XN had NO manners, his rudeness was unbelievable....... had forgotten that, thanks for reminding me. 

xxxxxxx  axa


Certain Hope

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Re: Emotional Communication
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2008, 04:57:58 PM »
((((((((((Confounded)))))))) hugs to you. I hear you.

And this is pretty much my rationale, too:
"any given person is probably very strange once you get past the facade of normalcy"...

but there's strange... and then there's utterly, maddeningly, destructively impossible.

I do trust that you'll know beyond any shadow of a doubt when/if it reaches the latter stage.

Love to you,
Carolyn