Giving up the story....it is time (V-day is coming)

[seasons]

Lise,

My heart weeps for you. ((((It was never ever your fault))))

You are brave, loving, innocent and devoted. May God take you in his arms, love and keep you from harm. I pray for this for you,
(((Lise))). seasons

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
  It is so clear  to everyone that none of it was your fault. However, the child(even as an adult) still feels that it IS.I know that everyone can see what a loon my M is, but I still listen and believe what she says,OVER myself, very often. It is so sad how much pain we bear from our parents,isn't it?  Love You, Lise,   Ami


((((((((Lise)))))))))))))

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lise,

It wasn't your fault then and it isn't your fault, now.
I've been thinking of you since last evening and absolutely must tell you...
I've stumbled over the elephant in the living room, too, and so I want to thank you, openly and up front, for sharing your insights here. Although I don't think you're always correct in your suspicions (and neither am I), I have learned so very much from your boldness in speaking about your concerns... well, I cannot thank you enough.
In voicing them clearly, I believe that you've prevented those concerns from sprouting roots and taking hold as deeper fears and resentments... and I think that is SO very healthy.
My description of the elephant might be different, but that doesn't change the effects of stepping in his piles. Thanks for clearing the road ahead for me.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

Thank you gabben , tt and Hope,

I have broken all toes except my little ones. I have broken my left ankle twice, broken my right foot, broken my right leg twice, first time ankle and fib, second time tib and fib and fractured my right ankle again.

Oooohhh (with compassion)....Izzy -- you dear. I'm sorry for all that you have suffered through. As Carolyn and tt were giving you well deserved strokes I thought to myself, "naw...Izzy can take it, it won't go to her head."

If anything, I think that you have been alone in your suffering, like me, you are resilient and able to quietly bear your cross. But we are still human, we need affirmation of our gifts and goodness, it goes to our hearts, not our heads (well, maybe a little  )


Thanks for sharing this -- keep sharing, I'm all ears.

Lise

[Gabben]

Dear Lise,

Although I don't think you're always correct in your suspicions (and neither am I) Carolyn

Hi Carolyn,

I love this! That you trust me enough (I hope) to express that you disagree. I hear you and I am going to consider what you wrote, I respect your insights and the gentle way you express your truth.

It is not hard for me to look at me and see my errors in thinking and behaving, neither is it hard for me to admit to them, EXCEPT, when I am in the company of unsafe people who will not allow me to be human and to make mistakes or will beat me up with silent "I told you so's" or even the silent treatments -- that is another elephant of mine, correct?

So much stuff is coming up -- I cried on the way to work this morning and I am hurting in my heart -- burning anger at the feelings of powerlessness.

Thank you ((((((Carolyn))))) You have been an angel to me in the last week.

[Gabben]

Gabben,

I just read your story and I am so sorry about what happened to you that day. I am also sorry that you are in so much pain. I admire your ability to talk about what happened, post about it, and confront and feel it. I wish there had been someone there for you to help you cope. I truly do.

Lollie

Hi Lollie,

Thank you for you post and your compassion and acknowledgement -- it helps.

I read your story. Yes, I can relate to having mentally challenged parents. Because of my abandonment issues, I suffered from BPD in my early twenties to late twenties. At the young age of 15, I had the wherewithall to understand mental illness and lack of emotional health. This was just after I was taken out of my home by the state and made a ward of the court because of my mom's abuse.

It was the counselors at the dependent unit that were able to start prepping me and teaching me about psychology. Then I moved in with a safe foster mom, an ex-nun. She provided an unconditional loving safe place for me to finish out my high school years. She also helped me to see how hard it was for me to get close to people and how oversensitive I was because of my mom's abandonment. Then I was sent to AA meetings at seventeen because I had found the escape of partying and drinking as a way of running from my problems. I found myself sober, reaching for God and spirituality and emotional health before I was even 18.

Then, at age 27, I spent 4 to 7 years working with a Freudian psychiatrist diving into my abandonment wound and re-feeling what was repressed. That was some of the most painful and intensive years of my life.

My childhood was just too painful -- there was so much and it just hurts these days. I know from past experience that God will give me breaks and I will not always be suffering such memories and pain. But for now, I just accept that I an hurting.

Thanks,
Lise

[Gabben]

I believe you have the confidence to speak up publicly.   or not?


Izzy,
Agreed, thanks.

Having been raised by an N mom there was aggression from her that was under the radar stuff, it was crazy making. Back then, I did not have the freedom or safenet of my own strength and self knowledge to question her. If I did question, in my defense, she would criminalize me as the aggressor or get extremely defensive and make me feel ashamed for questioning. I was voiceless. Now, I realize that the person I question is mostly likely going to deny it (as if they are going to really just admit it or tell the truth ) But at least I get to use my voice and question and get it out so that I can move on and be free of it.

Also, the person who I question knows that I am on to them and they will back off eventually because my questioning strengthens my internal boundaries. Silent bullies back off faster than in your face type bullies. This I just found to be true with my roommates.

In my struggle to resolve my feelings of powerlessness is seeing the N's and what they are doing and not being able to do anything...feeling like I can't say anything or I will be made to be the crazy one. I am powerless to get them or my mom to change...that struggle of trying to make sense of it all, trying to seek relief from what happened that I did not want to happen and not being able to do a damn thing about it...I'm sure you know all about this...right?

Gab

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lise,

"Although I don't think you're always correct in your suspicions (and neither am I) Carolyn "

What an interesting choice of a single line to quote...  I hadn't even thought about it, but yeah...
           since I didn't question myself as to whether I should admit to thinking you're fallible, I would definitely say that... yes!
Yes, I'd say that I trust you not to explode in anger at the suggestion that your interpretation of events might be incorrect at times.
I pretty much figure that any reasonable person would agree to that about her/him-self ? And I definitely see you as a reasonable person.

On the other hand, I know some folks to whom I'd never dare make that suggestion... it simply wouldn't be worth the grief.
They're not necessarily npd folks, just very insecure personalities who have not yet learned to live beneath the surface of life by laying aside the shame of the ages... but that's another story. All I know is - there's no opportunity for genuine intimacy with such a person. I know that because I was one...
and I had not a clue what it would be like to be utterly transparent in relationship. Now I have a clue and want to build on that : )

Thank you so much for your respect, Lise... I respect you, as well...
and that's not just because I see alot of things the same way you do (although I do... many things, I think)... but also because
I believe that it's more important to you to be real than it is to be comfortable... and that is a quality which is priceless, in my estimation... and quite rare.

((((((((Lise))))))))  I am so sorry it hurts so much. I hope that you'll continue talking out the powerlessness...
 and then the burning anger will morph, I think...
but the thing is, for awhile, what it morphs into is more pain, from my experience.

I think it's about relinquishing control over how other people will choose to treat us?
That is tough... because all the boundaries in the world
do not serve to fill us with the sort of cherishing love and acceptance which we crave... (please excuse that "we"... I do think it's a universal craving, tho).

Oh, and about the silent treatment... I actually think I prefer that to all the not-so-subtle innuendo-spreading, but yeah... it's a doozy of an elephant, I suppose.
Just again, not one of my particular buttons, except from the other side of the matter... in that I was formerly the expert at the silent treatment - - not because I sought to punish anyone, but
because I was so terrified at conflict and so occupied with black & white thinking that I knew no other alternative.
Wow - - I think that could be a whole other thread.

I'd better quit for now... sorry this is a bit scattered, I've been cooking interspersed with typing...  just please know that I don't think you're "the crazy one". I also don't think that you're alone in seeing the way you do... just maybe others' buttons, like my own, are various and sundry other? Or maybe they don't have the fortitude to say so. I never did.
One thing's for sure - - - we all have buttons! And if I had to choose a method of dealing with the pushed ones, I'd prefer the straight-up approach any day!

Love to you,
Carolyn

P.S.  If there is any place in this whole wide world where anyone should be able to give voice to all of his fears, concerns, angers, feelings of any sort - without being judged as acceptable or unacceptable - I think it's here on this VESMB.

[Gabben]

Lollie -- you are Catholic?? Me too! I just went to service.

Blessings,
Lise

[Gabben]

What an interesting choice of a single line to quote...  I hadn't even thought about it, but yeah...
          since I didn't question myself as to whether I should admit to thinking you're fallible, I would definitely say that... yes!
Yes, I'd say that I trust you not to explode in anger at the suggestion that your interpretation of events might be incorrect at times.
I pretty much figure that any reasonable person would agree to that about her/him-self ? And I definitely see you as a reasonable person.

Thank you Carolyn,

I have also found that the truth has an affect on me. After years of hearing the truth in AA - (we tend to be upfront and harsh with each other because our very lives depend on repentance) I have learned to discern the truth from the false. The false can be like a kick in the gut or it can just slide ride by. But, the truth has a way of making me pause, it sticks, sometimes uncomfortably -- but the more I practice facing it the more freedom, peace and insight come to me the more I embrace the truth about myself.

Also, it is easy to face ourselves when our shortcomings are becoming shorter or less...does that make sense? It is easier to see ourselves, the wrong, when we can also see the progress, I guess that is what I am trying to say.

The rest of what you wrote was beautiful. Yes, my heart still hurts and I am still aching. Last night the memories were incapacitating. I had to just lay down and cry and ache and hurt. This afternoon I am feeling much better but I am on my way to my Ts office and we will surely dredge some more of this stuff up together.

you said:

I think it's about relinquishing control over how other people will choose to treat us?

This hit the nail on the head for me - it is about lowering my expectations and letting go of how I expect others to treat me. It is about getting that hurt out that was unexpressed and not fully experienced when my mom would abuse me and I could do nothing, no where to go and no way to get relief. I have to just keep working through it, at least that is what God told me in prayer today -- He said not to worry, He is protecting me and watching over me like a loving father.

Off to see my T tonight ! I need it!

Love,
Lise

[Certain Hope]

((((((Lise)))))) Thank you... that was so well expressed. 
My own life depends on repentance, too... and confession, especially to myself, of my own shadows.
And now, for the first time in my life, I feel that I am safe enough both to express my own hurts and to allow others to express theirs.
This has happened as a direct result and through all of your sharing here and it's a giant leap... to be able to look at all of the mega-changes and struggles of the past three years and say more than simply, "I've survived"!
Now, I am actually feeling life inside... I mean, apart from the new birth, a new diminishing of the old shadows... and it's not about being free of npd enmeshments and control, but free of my own garbage.
All of that, because of these recent interactions here on this board, and your way of cutting to the chase.
Guess I shoulda explored AA long ago... but it never occurred to me to seek help there... and now, 3 years after quitting the drinking, I'm just finally understanding the concepts behind it all in order to become a safer person myself... and no longer terrified of the real-ness of it all. Wow, I am babbling. Anyhow, thank you, so much!

I absolutely trust that you will continue to purge those old hurts clean out of your system and that our loving Father will provide tender ears to ear and arms to embrace, as needed. HE is so faithful about that.

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

Carolyn -- I love your babbling!

[Certain Hope]

lol... oy, Lise... you may regret sayin that... lol. Thanks, though Made me grin!

I'm just really excited about these new feelings of vibrance and wholeness...
and my laryngitis is finally about gone, so I'm in full voice... lol.

Love to you,
Carolyn

[Certain Hope]

lol... no blinking over here ((((((Lollie))))))
I kinda thought you were Lutheran, the first time I saw you mention Ash Wednesday.

Years ago, I went through a siege (more like a spasm  ) of ripping to shreds nearly every denomination within Christendom, as I picked apart doctrinal issues and darn near drove myself mad with examination of issues. ugh. Thank God for a kinder, gentler spirit and mentality. Now, as I wrote to my die-hard-Lutheran dad not long ago, Yes, I do believe there will be some Lutherans in heaven. lol. I hope you know I'm kidding...  but my dad is quite serious about not being too sure there'll be anything other than Mo Synod Lutherans in heaven.

anyhow... it is no longer a sensitive issue with me, but thanks for thinking of me! (And I always loved celebrations according to the church year calendar, especially the advent and lenten mid-week services.)

Love,
Carolyn

[Gabben]

hi gabben,
I see you have had some good interchange, so I will go back to when I rented ½ a house.

---a story and a half, so two families could live there. I paid $100.00 per month (don't choke. That was 1968.) I earned $70.00 per week. (Don't laugh. It was 1968) The rule being , pay no more per month rent than one earns per week.

ROTFL!!! I was born in 1968!

Ah! I had to rent and found a single mother with daughter. I was ready to ask her to leave earlier than the 6 months I gave her, but (Don't laugh. This was 1968) I confiscated her sewing machine and sound system in lieu of rent---until she paid.

Go girl!!

She found another place and moved out. I had a couple moving in, but suddenly noticed that the huge fuse clip that runs the dryer and stove was missing. It had to be removed when appliances were coming or going, and she knew that and took it with her.

how devious of her!!!

Noon hours from work I drove around and around until I saw her car---- noted the address---went home and read the whole  telephone book for that address' phone number---made an appointment to visit her landlady--- her dryer not yet hooked up--asked landlady to note the Electrician's name when he came and to call me. (I had other people searching with no luck) Say it was Izzy Electrical works-- so called them and asked if they had such and such of an old fuse clip-yada yada, and coinky-dinky they did. I paid $5.00 to get it back in time for my new tenants.

(She finally paid the rent due and I gave back her appliances)

Resourceful!

Izzy, did you miss your calling to be a private detective or a good attorney? One thing for sure, you are a problem solver!

Lise