N parents create children naive about close relationships?

[flower]

Hi everyone,

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Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

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My mother didn't talk to me about life and relationships as I grew up. I feel like she intentionally didn't explain manipulation because she was busy doing it to me. I remember asking relationship advice of my mom as a teen and she had some stupid glib answers that solved nothing.

------------------------------------------------------

Thanks so much for your insight and support.
 It aided my healing. Too much of my heart
was in this post to let it remain here for posterity on the web.
The post served its purpose and now it is time to
edit it or gently take it down.
 
To every thing there is a season, and a time
to every purpose under the heaven:  Ecclesiates 3:1

------------------------------------------------------------

[Dawning]

Flower,

Thanks for posting this topic.  I don't know how common it is but it sure reasonated with me when I read it.   It is a difficult  topic for me and one that I haven't fully explored but there is something here so allow me to share and thanks again for bringing it up.  I'm afraid I don't have any insights.  

I never felt like I fit in ever since I can *remember* even though I needed close relationship(s) all my life.    I am starting to see it more clearly - that it is a normal need.  But I don't know what to do to have a close relationship with others so I am working on having a normal, unstunted one with myself.   I think creating something would be fulfilling.  I am at a point where I can give myself permission to create something by myself without seeing the creative process as a problem.  How weird is that?  Feels like some old program that I never knew I had.  

My mother didn't talk to me about life and relationships as I grew up. I feel like she intentionally didn't explain manipulation because she was busy doing it to me. I remember asking relationship advice of my mom as a teen and she had some stupid glib answers that solved nothing.

My mother and no one in my family talked to me about this either or  *modelled* it for me.  And they sure were busy manipulating, that is for sure.  I don't think they intentionally withheld valuable life information from me.  I think on their scale of priorities, getting me to meet their needs of me was a lot more imporant than helping me have or create a happy life for myself.  I don't think they cared about my happiness at all when I was a child or teen.  

I had to learn the hard way too.  You are not alone.  
Maybe one reason for the naivety, the inability to form close relationships, is because its impossible to have a close, real relationship with N parents so a fantasy is created about a perfect, albeit naive perception of what a relationship truly is and the effort it takes to get there.  And the fantasy held for so long protects so it is hard to give up.   Before I saw myself as a victim.  When my last attempt at a close relationship failed,  I found the message inside of me: heal.  find yourself.  find the truth covered over by lies and years of manipulation that keeps you from establishing close relationships and go slowly into them.  

It is painful to admit my foibles and I blush sometimes at my own posts.

I am blushing a bit too.  This has been a hard post to write and I am sorry I don't have more insight.   I'm not sure whether I helped you gain a perspective you are looking for cause I am looking to.  Maybe some others will have some insight into this.

[Anonymous]

flower and Dawning,

Great topic. I agree with Dawning that we create a fantasy about relationships that's unrealistic. It is pretty ingrained and difficult to dislodge even with empirical and rational evidence to the contrary. This is because we develop templates in childhood that are embedded in our psyche, even in our nervous system. It takes a lot of effort and time to revise the templates. Some people never get the gumption to do it; or lack the tools; or are too dysfunctional so they don't even see a problem (our N parents for example).

I don't think our parents intentionally misled us. I think they weren't grounded in reality in the first place, so they couldn't tell us about it. And they had severe emotional or mental problems. So all they could do was project into us the same sick templates they had (big problem!).

I didn't learn about normal human interactions until I was in my 30s. I was miserable, hated myself, and didn't know how to deal with people without being exploited or persecuted. I learned about it because I was desperate. It can be learned like any other skill or knowledge.

bunny

[Dawning]

Hi.    

It's kind of like deciding what kind of person one wants to be in an enjoyable creative journey of discovery .

Ideally.  For me, its a slog.  It require something I didn't bring with me into my independent life: self-enforcement of discipline.  I left that at the door when I left home years ago.  Now I am working through getting it back on my own terms.  'Tis not easy for me to be creative.  If I take lessons, I am okay until something *happens* that makes me lose my confidence and it usually involves the feeling of being betrayed.  For example, I was taking belly dance lessons (4 years ago) and my teacher let me sleep over one night cause it was late.  In my naive mind, I thought it would be fine to sleep in the same bed as her.  Then, as we were laying there, she tells me that she and her SO want to BOTH sleep with me; she said it would make us "closer."  I said I wasn't ready for that.  Yucky stuff.  Her SO was an alcoholic.  And why the attraction?  She didn't like the way I danced and never gave me much encouragement.

The dancing thing never sat well with my mother and grandmother.  Or any creativity unless it involved them.  I have two vivid memories of this but never connected them until recently.  Once, I was dancing to a song on the TV show, Soul Train.  I must have been 10.  Grandmother said she didn't like that kind of dancing; that it was okay to use my legs only   .  But I still wanted to perform.  So I wrote a note to my grandparents introducing my new dance done in "wiggly leg motion."  I remember having to beg (they would call it demand) their attention but, when I danced, I gave it my all.  I poured my heart and soul into it.  My grandmother looked perplexed.  I seemed to make a connection with my grandfather for an instant and then it was over.  No applause, no recognition.  Just back to work at whatever they were doing.  But when I imitated my grandmother, she loved it.  She still writes letter to me reminding me how cute I was when I imitated her.  Or, when I was in the hospital with asthma at age 3 and I entertained all the nurses with my singing.  And then there was the "curse word box" I made up to get my mother and grandparents to stop cursing.  They, were having a party and out from the bedroom I came with my silver box.  I had prices written on the front for how much they would have to pay if they said a *bad* word.  They laughed pretty hard at this and, hey, I was the life of the party so...

When I started belly dancing 6 years ago (i'm not currently dancing or taking lessons), my mother quickly got competitive.  I wanted to show them what I could do - and did - but they were not impressed.  I think my grandmother said to my mother "YOU ought to try that."  When my grandfather died, my mother got upset over everything real or imagined.   She got upset at me over something having to do with her not getting her needs met.  I was already 2 years into therapy and knew that I should try for something different.  Not give in to her specific and unrealistic demand but still acknowledge and respect (I don't respect her anymore) her need to be cheered up/made happy and *my* need for the same.  I asked if she might be up for a belly dance lesson.  She hee-hawed and agreed.  There was a male neighbor over and he was drinking his usual scotch on the rocks.  I didn't give him much thought and he was literally nodding off in the chair.  My mother went into her room, took off her shirt and came out in a loose-fitting scarf draped around her breasts.  I was wearing a t-shirt and leggings.  When I started to do a few basic moves, she stood right in between me and the neighbor.  This is a man that she has repeatedly talked ill of, has stated she will not marry cause he's "not my type" and has criticized to others while he is in the room.  She got up face to face with me which I felt uncomfortable with and so I moved off to the side.  She then attempted to push me back into place.  

So creativity has always come with a lot of hassles for me.  The one thing I've always been able to do in private is write.  That is the creative energy I am channeling now.  Little by little.  Step by step.  I find myself being very protective of it though but at the same time wanting to share it.  Its like the quagmire of whether to be close or not.  Or wanting to be close to *anybody* thus setting myself up for rejection.  

I sent out some emails tonight about joining some clubs.  

and didn't know how to deal with people without being exploited or persecuted. I learned about it because I was desperate.

Bunny, I am at the stage now.  I didn't feel desperate for many years but definitely felt lonely and *deserving* of giving up all my needs for closeness.  Now, I confess a feeling of desperation at making any kind of healthy connections at all.  Thanks for sharing.

That was quite a whopper of a last post, flower.  you've got some amazing insights there that I am going to have to read again.  Will be back later after I've read it a few more times.

[Anonymous]

flower,

Your mom sounds like my late MIL. She had a 'mind-meld' with her son (my H) that is still affecting him. He has tried to do melding with me but it didn't work. Then he got angry. But I think he was also relieved that I wouldn't go there, otherwise he'd be swallowed up like he was with his mother.

My fantasy is nearly the opposite of melding. I want people to leave me alone, not bother me, not want anything from me, and make no demands on me. And be attached to me anyway. My mother isn't like this. She demands that everyone agree with her view and placate her. I'm more like my father who is pretty distant and in his own world.

bunny

[Anonymous]

Dawning,

It sounds like when you tried sharing your creativity and talents, people took advantage, crossed boundaries, and exploited you. So you're afraid that people can't be trusted to just appreciate and admire you appropriately. Have you ever noticed how children preen and prance around for adult admiration? Our job as adults is to give them the admiration! If we didn't get our rightful admiration in childhood, but instead criticism, shaming, or abuse, then we may have problems accepting appropriate appreciation. We may tolerate more abuse because we can't tell the difference between healthy and unhealthy attention. But we can learn.

bunny

[Dawning]

Hello flower and bunny.

my mom enforcing her unreality.

yes, that is just what they do, don't they?

Through my childhood and beyond, I would keep hitting my head against the brickwall of her stubborn, silent rejection or rage, risking her revenge in my attempt to be heard.I had some love from others in my life and I knew that something was wrong with her. I remember growing up thinking sometime, "Mama is dumb, but she gets mad when people tell her she's wrong."

That is a great quote you remember.  To your inner-child, I say, "here's to the truth."     I had a similar experience of risking her revenge (also my grandmother's) as I wrote - especially when I attempted to *separate* by being creative.  I am glad you had love from others in your life.  I remember being told repeatedly how much *they* loved me and I thought, then, that the reason everything I did made them angry was because there was something wrong with me.  I mean, here were these *loving* people and I was making them hate me.  "In retrospect" (great term) I see they were just lying.  Telling me that they loved me was a technique to control me.  On the contrary, they separated me from everything I did love.  

I felt some kind of sense of warmness flood over me, drawing me in and I felt myself entering her realm that was 'safe and easy' with no tension and I could be like a little baby again where she did all the thinking for me. It was like the stage before the sense of power during exploration and sense of self. I was entering a melded state. I would then apologize for getting hurt feelings and being upset ( read: having my own emotions) and throw away my brain as my entrance fee into her good graces.She would accept my apology with a regal air about her as she stooped low to regard me. She won. I was back in her realm, and 'security'. But at one point there was a new dimension I realized, added as the kicker at the end - a sick feeling that I would pay for violating her total rule. I would go back to the brickwall again and again because I wasn't a total basketcase.

It sounds like the brickwall - although a destructive means of self-expression - saved you from her somehow.  My mother also expected me to relate to her as my saviour and expected me to pay the price - relinquishing my worth as a separate human being with needs of my own.  She is still stuck in this pattern.  Just a few months ago, she wrote to tell me that she would be here for me when, unfortunately, my friends won't be.  That brickwall analogy has really got me thinking.  I've been up against it for years and just now starting to climb over it and see the light at the other side.     Thank you for this analogy.  I understand.

I think the difference between us and our Ns is that we want something from a fantasy but a lot of us don't have the disease and don't enforce the fantasy on the others. We are the responders. When I became married, I took along the fantasy of being melded.

How wonderful that you met a man who was patient.  I didn't want to be melded with anyone in my twenties yet I wanted a connection - a real one that was, in effect, my need for unconditional love.   I pushed men away and welcomed them in at the same time.  Very ambivalent there.  My ex gave up on me but he also lied.   Since I've been at the brickwall, I have needed to be rescued by a man...to be picked up and lifted over to the other side.  And, in that fantasy of being rescued, I have denied myself so much.    And I am dam* angry     but finally able to tell the truth.    Lots of emotions there.

My mom is like Tuvok with no boundaries with her hands superglued to my head. "My mind to your mind. My thoughts to your thoughts."

How frustrating and scary to deal with.    I was lucky that my mother was inconsistent about doing this.   For the time I spent alone made me strong enough to have ideas of my own at young age - though no one listened.  It also seems to me that whole nations have been built on this idea of the mind meld.  Its funny to think that narcissism may also be seen as a world *phenomenon* (for lack of a better word. )

Any other elements of a fantasy relationship or naivety about close relationships that we could discuss?

Naivety about men.

The naive assumption that in order to get attention, there has to be a problem that needs to be fixed.

Well, I already feel like I have hogged your thread with my sharing through creativity rant.    Yet,  I do think there is something there...sharing creativity together without feeling the (naive?) fear of the creativity being usurped.  I know my mother wants me all to herself.  She wants a captive audience and she and my GM want to be imitated.  Is that another characteristic of Nism?  But I never wanted to be like my mother and realized somehow in my life that I had to be *good at something* to get healthy attention.  Thank gawd.  I think my *attention-starvation* is another brick in the wall.   All my life, I was never told that I was good at something or good just as I was - N's hidden agenda - and in my naiveity, I believed them.   When people are attracted to me, I don't know why they would be.  I have (naively) let myself be abused in my thirties because I went from not wanting to meld (and felt that cost me my marriage in my 20's) to wanting to meld (and being turned away because I was too needy.) And so I see that I hold a (naive?) assumption that everything is my fault.  When something goes wrong, I was quick to take the blame.  

Gee, flower, I want to thank you also for coming up with this insightful use of the word *meld.*  And thank you for your questions and I am sorry that I can't come up with more general answers.  As I said, this topic is difficult for me but the difficult things have hidden keys to learning and re-programming.  I would like to take the journey together without the melding too.  As you said:

So I believe the healthy alternative to a fantasy of melding is two seperate persons with their own cherished identities, having and respecting boundaries, interacting in agreed upon areas aka healthy contracts.

Sounds pretty healthy to me.  

Unhealthy expectations we allow others to have of us?

The one I am recovering from these days is you can get away with hurting me but I expect you to give me some attention back.  

Handling disagreement without learning how to growing up?

I'm not sure what you mean here but I would like to know.  Perhaps you could clarify.

Bunny, thanks as ever for your wise and insightful comments and for being showing such a positive example of *sharing.*

[Dawning]

flower,

Your story about the shoes and hair got me thinking that, in an N's perfect world, everyone would simply reflect their own fantasies and they *will* enforce that fantasy on their *own* young children who are the easiest targets.  

I learned only how to boss and how to be bossed from my ubringing.

This is a valuable insight.  You say you learned the hard way - but you learned.  

I think some mourning and grieiving is called for when getting deep into retrospection.  Something was not taught to us growing up - alot, actually.  In this case, the modelling on how to nurture close relationships in a meaningful way.  You are not alone.   I am going to take it slowly when I finally feel ready to go out and meet new people.  Give a little here, see how people respond.  Be sensitive to the times when people *are* giving to me and take gently and slowly.  Recognize that my trust was shattered at an early age.  Allow myself to feel hurt by this but move on with a new, less naive and more confident awareness of what happened, what is happening and what I can do to make the future happen.

[el123]

flower,  
Sorry if I say whats already been stated but I haven't had time to read through all of the posts yet . I just have to reply to this.  
I definately lack the basics here (see "Can a N feel true attraction" post).  I like what bunny had to say about the templates.  I think that this is true and would explain a lot!

My mom is like Tuvok with no boundaries with her hands superglued to my head. "My mind to your mind. My thoughts to your thoughts."

I can relate to this!  My mom is the same way.  She absolutely cannot see that I have different viewpoints/thoughts from her or different from how she wants me to think.  She often tells me what I think.

Any other elements of a fantasy relationship or naivety about close relationships that we could discuss

Well, I also have a problem with naivete and just blindly putting up with people's sh***t.  I know that I have a hard time with boundaries (understatement...) and sometimes it takes me days or longer to even *realize* that someone did or said something to me that they shouldn't have.  

I think that you have discovered some very valuable insights here.  It's hard to grow into a "healthy" woman without the basics modeled for you.  For your own mother to use you for her own ego needs.  Just knowing this is a stepstone that you can move up from.  You seem to be on the right track!

-El

[Portia]

This is such a great thread Flower, I’ve only just read it. Dawning you sparked some thoughts in me, particularly with your belly-dancing teacher episode. I have (had?) the problem of thinking that everyone – everyone – is better than me, less screwed up than me. And therefore everyone is worth trusting from the outset. I have trusted far too much, been totally gullible. Had to run away from situations in my 20s and 30s where I suddenly realised I just might be raped, seriously! Anyone else would’ve gotten out of the situation a lot sooner. Or not got into it in the first place.

And I’m used to being used/abused so when new people try it on, I don’t notice it as quickly as someone else might. I’m getting better, slowly. I use the ol’ intuition – a moment of feeling ‘icky’ or ‘confused’ means danger. But I’ll still go and investigate further, give the benefit of the doubt! But I won’t beat myself up about it: it’s all learning and growing.

Dawning this is real ‘icky’ and I think you’re brave for writing it:

My mother went into her room, took off her shirt and came out in a loose-fitting scarf draped around her breasts. I was wearing a t-shirt and leggings. When I started to do a few basic moves, she stood right in between me and the neighbor. This is a man that she has repeatedly talked ill of, has stated she will not marry cause he's "not my type" and has criticized to others while he is in the room. She got up face to face with me which I felt uncomfortable with and so I moved off to the side. She then attempted to push me back into place.

 And what’s more I don’t fully understand what happened? Was she blocking the man’s view of you? Or was she using you in an effort to jointly titillate the man? Or was she just in plain, direct competition with you, wanting to prove she was sexier?  Gosh…whatever happened here, it makes me knot my eyebrows. It’s sick. You are being used and abused somehow. But I guess you know that. Yuk. Does anyone else have a different view on what might have happened here? I try to understand, even though sometime it’s unfathomable. Shaking head, P

[Cj]

Hi, I was reading this, and had to just comment, thats the first time I've heard anyone say that, at least in print. It kinda resonated. I felt that way from a young age, like a massive inferiority complex, and like I was almost alien from others, and there was something *different* about me, albeit, something defective. I always recal when it followed me into my teens, I wanted to identify with 'the outcasts' but even that didn't seem possible, I felt I wasn't good enough for anyone, even though I had major social anxiety, I think that could have been underlying it, more than a result of it.

Anyway, sorry, carry on....

This is such a great thread Flower, I’ve only just read it. Dawning you sparked some thoughts in me, particularly with your belly-dancing teacher episode. I have (had?) the problem of thinking that everyone – everyone – is better than me, less screwed up than me.

[Dawning]

Bunny's  templates idea got me thinking about some of the things we learned as children and accepted as truth from our N's about our role in close relationship.  I have written a list in Word.

Now, here is what I am thinking.  Once these template-messages are written down, it is possible to go in and *change* the way they are written and have new affirmations that can be read everyday, posted on the mirror, etc.  

I want to begin the process of changing my templates.  

flower, I appreciate your understanding about my earlier rant on your thread.    This is something that has obviously unlocked a flood...torrent might be a better word    in me.  Thank you for your empathy.  And thank you too, Portia.  The story about my dancing as a child and the relatively recent one about my mother and her boobs hanging out in front of that neighbor are ones that I've never told to anyone.  I didn't think anyone would understand and the template says that whatever the truth might be, they are still my family and looking out for my best interests....NOT.     I think my mother was jealous of me and threatened that the things I could do with dance were things she couldn't do with her own body and that made us...horror of horrors....separate  Sheesh.  I didn't deserve to be pushed around by her no matter what her NPD mind justifies.  The truth is that I was shocked by that action.  Now, I realize that if she is resorting to such blatant displays of hatred towards me (which really is herself) then that must mean I am getting better.    

Portia, I am glad you used the past tense in parentheses.  "had?.....yesssssssss.  

Rather than thinking others were better than me, I felt for a long time that they knew something I didn't about how to relate to others and so I always go into situation looking for the answer on how to get along...feeling not so much that I am screwed up (anymore than anyone else   ) but inferior in the area of people skills.  I think my yearning to learn how to get along freaks people out.  Really, I should stand strong, be confident and change my damn templates!!!

Had to run away from situations in my 20s and 30s where I suddenly realised I just might be raped, seriously! Anyone else would’ve gotten out of the situation a lot sooner. Or not got into it in the first place.

I am going through something similar now.  I haven't been raped but I feel very vulnerable and unable to walk to the subway station without feeling that I am being snickered at for setting myself up with someone when I thought - all along - that we were close.  Go easy on yourself, P, when thinking "anyone else."  Could that be related to the negative templates?  I know I heard the hidden msg that I was stupid and everyone else had their act very much together.

[Dawning]

flower,

what a difficult time.  I know you have a lot of love and compassion for your daughter.  and your husband - gout...i've seen that and it looks painful.  i wish I could console you.  good luck.  you have friends here.

[Portia]

CJ – yay! Identifying with the outcasts. My best friend was an outsider. It took me ages to get to even think that she was okay. We became friends over quite a while. Turns out she was mightily screwed up by her father’s infidelity, which her mom was quite violent about (not in the family, to the ‘other woman’). I remember when she was with her first proper boyfriend how she was insanely jealous of him even glancing at a girl across the street. Sorry, rambling on, off thread.

Outsiders. Why do we have so-called gay icons? Like Liza Minnelli, Judy G, probably James Dean, Marilyn M etc? I heard someone say it’s because those icons suffered/suffer and come through (or die and their image lives on), they are outsiders too in a way, so they are celebrated as being similar. Outsiders tend to like each other it seems. A bit like us smokers, we (me and the others) huddle together in our dirty habits. And of course we all smoke because at some point we’ve either rebelled against others, or rebelled against ourselves. Ha. My half-bro is at college. He told me all the philosophy students smoke. I said yeah, it’s because they’re mentally unstable (you have to be to study that). He said he thought it was some kind of philosophical statement on life. Kind of! How did I get here? CJ, I thought this might be a new thread. Want to start one? You can paste me if you wish.

Dawning – loved your explanation of your boob-swinging mom. And that you hadn’t told that before. Isn’t it amazing what we find we’ve accepted in the past, when we look at it fresh? And see what really happened? Incredible. I found it shocking too, what you said. Mom used me as a bit of an entertainer.

Really, I should stand strong, be confident and change my damn templates!!!

 Clap clap clap! I love that frustration, signalling change. What did I read last night? "I got sick and tired of being sick and tired." But you ‘should’ or ‘can’ or ‘want to’ stand strong?
Ha ha! I’m still laughing at my ‘anyone else would have..’. Yeah! Play the tape and then erase! Oh boy.   Thank you!

Flower – lots of good luck and wishes from me too. Hope you can reach your daughter. Hope she wants to get better. Take care of yourself too. P

[Cj]

Thanks portia. I dunno, a new thread might be an idea, I guess its an interesting topic. I don't know if I have anything to add to it really. I'm not stupid, its an interesting topic, but I just don't know if I have anything to say on the topic, or rather, what 'I' really think. I'd love to have been able to be an outsider was my point. As it was I was one in a field of one, and crap.