Author Topic: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...  (Read 7200 times)

Hermes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2008, 03:20:45 PM »
I have no idea, Leah.  LOL.

Mere stereotyping, I suppose.  But it is true that, despite legislation to the contrary, employers will if they can, take on the slimmer/fitter individual than the more oversized one.  Maybe it goes back through the long corridors of evolution, to when everyone dwelt in a dangerous and hostile world .  One had to be lean and fit to hunt, and to survive by being able to out-run the bear.....

All the best
Hermes




Hermes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2008, 03:50:54 PM »
""""Social effects of attractiveness
When a person is seen as attractive or unattractive, assumptions are brought into play. Across cultures, what is beautiful is assumed to be good. Attractive people are assumed to be more extroverted, popular, and happy, and attractive people do tend to have these characteristics. However, this is probably due to self-fulfilling prophecy; from a young age, attractive people receive more attention that helps them develop these characteristics.[33][34]

Physical attractiveness can have real effects. A survey conducted by London Guildhall University of 11,000 people showed that those who subjectively describe themselves as physically attractive earn more income than others who would describe themselves as less attractive.[35] People who described themselves as less attractive earned, on average, 13% less than those who described themselves as more attractive, while the penalty for being overweight was around 5%. Another study indicated that physical attractiveness in men plays an even larger role for salary than it does for women, contributing as much as 40% to earnings. It is thought that these figures are similar around most of Europe, including France, Germany and Spain. It is important to note that other factors such as self-confidence may explain or influence these findings as they are based on self-reported attractiveness as opposed to any sort of objective criteria; however, as one's self-confidence and self-esteem are largely learned from how one is regarded by their peers while maturing, even these considerations would suggest a significant role for physical appearance.

The discrimination against or prejudice towards others based on their appearance is referred to as Lookism.

Many have asserted that certain advantages tend to come to those that are perceived as being more attractive, including the ability to get better jobs and promotions, receiving better treatment from authorities and the legal system, having more choices in romantic partners and, therefore, more power in relationships, and marrying into families with more money.[36][33][34]

Both men and women use physical attractiveness as a measure of how 'good' another person is. However, in terms of sexual behavior, some studies suggest little difference between men and women. Symmetrical men and women have a tendency to begin to have sexual intercourse earlier, to have more sexual partners, to engage in a wider variety of sexual activities, and to have more one-night stands. They are also prone to infidelity and are more likely to have open relationships.[37] Symmetrical men and women are also best suited for their environment, and their physical characteristics are most likely to be inherited by the next generation.[38][39][40][41]





Bella_French

  • Guest
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2008, 04:47:52 PM »
That sounds about right, Hermes. I'm not sure if I've mentioned this to you Hermes, but my partner completed his psyche degree a couple of years ago. In his last year, they did quite a few studies along the lines of this topic.

One study he brought home was similar to the one you just posted. A test group were asked to interview a range of beautiful and non-beautiful people. The test group did not know this, but the `non-beautiful' interviewees were selected for possessing `good' character traits, such as talent, performing charity services, success, empathetic styles of communication etc.   And the `beautiful' test group were selected for their `looks' only.

The interviewers were asked to make `character assessments' of the beautiful and non-beautiful people they interviewed. The results were that the beautiful people were invariably assigned `magical qualities' pertaining to their character which did not in fact exist, whereas the non-beautiful people did not receive recognition for their `positive character traits', although they had been specifically selected because of those traits.

There many more studies like that one, but this one really stuck out.


Leah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2894
  • Joyous Discerner
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #33 on: February 09, 2008, 04:50:46 PM »
Thank you Hermes and Bella,

Most interesting indeed.

Leah x  (plain jane)   :)


PS >>  Just wondering, do you have a recommended website, for info?   Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2008, 05:00:18 PM by LeahsRainbow »
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Bella_French

  • Guest
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #34 on: February 09, 2008, 05:08:49 PM »
Dear Leah,

As much as all the statistics annoy me, and reflect some of my own experiences, I believe  that there a plenty of people who reject those ideas about beauty. I think the stats reflect the fact that a statistically large portion of the population is really not very bright and easily brainwashed by current social `norms''.

I am not attracted to such people, so its not a huge deal to me. I wouldn't want to work for a `not very bright' boss who would feel threatened by my intelligence, or in job where my value is based on looks (which would put a premature expiry date on my career)

Plenty of guys who admire beauty will still choose a woman they can trust over a woman overly concerned with attracting men. I think a lot fo men would be downright frightened of such a  partner, lol.











 





Leah

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2894
  • Joyous Discerner
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #35 on: February 09, 2008, 05:13:25 PM »
Dear Leah,

As much as all the statistics annoy me, and reflect some of my own experiences, I believe  that there a plenty of people who reject those ideas about beauty. I think the stats reflect the fact that a statistically large portion of the population is really not very bright and easily brainwashed by current social `norms''.

I am not attracted to such people, so its not a huge deal to me. I wouldn't want to work for a `not very bright' boss who would feel threatened by my intelligence, or in job where my value is based on looks (which would put a premature expiry date on my career)

Plenty of guys who admire beauty will still choose a woman they can trust over a woman overly concerned with attracting men. I think a lot fo men would be downright frightened of such a  partner, lol.



Dear Bella,

Oh, so there is hope for me then!   :)

I so resonate, with accord, all you have just shared.

Thank you.

My exNH was always telling me how lucky I was to have him
as I was a "plain jane"  and he would compare me, unkindly.

Hugs,

Leah x
Jun 2006 voiceless seeking

April 2008 - "The Gaslight Effect" How to Spot & Survive by Dr. Robin Stern - freedom of understanding!

The Truth About Abuse VIDEO

Hermes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #36 on: February 09, 2008, 05:28:50 PM »
I agree with you Bella.  There is more to beauty than meets the eye.  Indeed there are many women, or men, who are not "handsome" in the accepted sense of the word, but they have something, they have "it".  I think the studies in question refer more to evolutionary perspectives.
And there are many people who are handsome, and intelligent, and that's all right too.  I have no problem with a person, man or woman, being beautiful.  Many are also very nice people.  You can admire beauty, and still also see the other aspects of the person, their personality.  Some people have a lovely face, some have a great figure, some have wonderful hair, there are all kinds of aspects.
I do not think a beautiful person is necessarily overly concerned with attracting a man or a women, although some may be.  Many beautiful women, or handsome men, simply attract.
Men might well be turned off by a woman who is overly concerned with attracting, whether she is beautiful or not.

LOL.  My exNH used to say to me, sourly, that the only man he would leave me in a room alone with was my own brother.  LMAO.

Hermes


 

Bella_French

  • Guest
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #37 on: February 09, 2008, 05:35:56 PM »
Lol, Leah, My NPD- ex would do the same, but I was actually very beautiful at the time. You can never be beautiful enough for an N and avoid criticism.


 


Hermes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #38 on: February 09, 2008, 05:36:35 PM »
http://arjournals.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.psych.57.102904.190208

School of Psychology, University of Western Australia, Crawley, Perth, WA 6009, Australia; email: gill@psy.uwa.edu.au

▪ Abstract  What makes a face attractive and why do we have the preferences we do? Emergence of preferences early in development and cross-cultural agreement on attractiveness challenge a long-held view that our preferences reflect arbitrary standards of beauty set by cultures. Averageness, symmetry, and sexual dimorphism are good candidates for biologically based standards of beauty. A critical review and meta-analyses indicate that all three are attractive in both male and female faces and across cultures. Theorists have proposed that face preferences may be adaptations for mate choice because attractive traits signal important aspects of mate quality, such as health. Others have argued that they may simply be by-products of the way brains process information. Although often presented as alternatives, I argue that both kinds of selection pressures may have shaped our perceptions of facial beauty.



Bella_French

  • Guest
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #39 on: February 09, 2008, 05:51:10 PM »

I do not think a beautiful person is necessarily overly concerned with attracting a man or a women, although some may be.  Many beautiful women, or handsome men, simply attract.
Men might well be turned off by a woman who is overly concerned with attracting, whether she is beautiful or not.

Hermes


I agree Hermes; not all beautiful people are concerned with attracting people, but I would say that a great number most definitely are, and that is why they make the effort to be regarded as beautiful.

`Beauty' is a fashion term, IMO. Very few people naturally fit into the `fashion' without making quite a bit of effort, by way of diet, surgery, drugs, clothing, makeup, demeanor, & excercise.

 I have seen this quantifiedl  statistically, in a book by Naomi Wolf she wrote in 1996. Her stats showed that 90% of `beautiful women' fall into the category of having to perform major, conscious modifications to their natural appearancer in order to be beautiful, some of  which is dangerous and life threatening.

I found that interesting.





 







Hermes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2008, 08:03:06 PM »
Hello Bella:

Well, the truly beautiful do not need surgery, that is for sure.  I know lots of naturally beautiful women, they have not had surgery.  I think the person who has had surgery becomes immediately obvious, or pretty much.

I think it is good to look after one's appearance, to keep as fit as possible (if only for health reasons), a little makeup does no harm, a good haircut by a good hairdresser.   Certainly, I would treat myself to those, with no qualms LOL.  I think diet is important, I think it is important to avoid obesity, because of the health risks involved.  Exercise is important, for the same reasons.  Good posture is important.  I am not into buying clothes for buying sake.  But I like to be well turned out, and in any event I have to be at times because of meetings and such like.  I do not have to make a huge effort in that sense, I am fortunate to be slim, naturally (have never dieted in my life). 
IMO a certain sector of women will probably take as gospel what they read in "fashion" magazines.  The rest will use their common sense.

All the best
Hermes






Bella_French

  • Guest
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #41 on: February 09, 2008, 08:38:15 PM »
Hi Hermes,

I can understand Hermes, I expect that a great many people share your feelings:) 

Stereotypical or `conforming' type of appearances do not impress me; I've travelled too much around the world to take any one stereotype to heart. What is ugly in the west is gorgeous somewhere else, and its  an eye opener, to experience the subjectivity first hand.

After one trip to Asia, where my pale skin, blonde hair and size 14 hips were regarded as sublimely beautiful, I decided to give up my insecurity complex.  But I am still highly aware of the western attitude. I am `ugly and invisible' in Australia. But I can say that without taking that onboard as my identity. 4 hours away, by plane, I am a Goddess. What a head trip!

So the surgery thing does not sit so well with me, but I can understand that people want to fit in, and feel less fearful. I think people should travel more. Especially Americans, lol.













Hermes

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 390
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2008, 08:49:05 PM »
That is right, Bella.  Travel broadens the mind LOL.

I have to say I have never had an insecurity complex.  ExNH did his best to try to get me to have one, but he did not manage to do so LOL.
But it is evident that many do have.  Plastic surgery has become hugely popular over here too, people spend vast sums of money, forgetting that they are still basically the same person inside.  They have done T.V. programmes on the topic.  So you see a woman enthusiastically going for the face-lift that is going to change her life (she looks fine the way she is BTW).  What she forgets is that the face is going to make no difference, because you can see that her posture is not good, and her image problem will still make her hunch her shoulders, face lift or no face lift. 

I just dunno. People do very strange things. LOL

All the best
Hermes

tayana

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 933
    • http://tayana.blogspot.com
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2008, 09:02:54 PM »
I write fantasy.  I've also been reading it since I was about 8.

Most fantasy, especially Tolkein clones, are intended for boys aged 13-20.  That's often why there is a "formula" type approach to fantasy.  Many of the fantasies that are very popular right are written with a formula, in fact.    The stereotypes don't really bother me.  There are novels out there that break the stereotypes, but you just have to hunt for them.

Fantasy is one of the hardest genres to break into, even though it's very popular.  The things that do break the sterotype often don't sell very well.
http://tayana.blogspot.com

You gain strength, courage and confidence by every experience in which you
really stop to look fear in the face. You must do the thing you think you cannot
do.
-Elanor Roosevelt

Bella_French

  • Guest
Re: Portrayal of women in Fantasy Novels...
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2008, 09:07:21 PM »
Dear Hermes, its a bit confrontng seeing cosmetic surgery take off here in Australia, too, so I can relate to how `strange' it is seems. I now have school friends who've chopped off parts of noses and chins, and they were pretty, popular girls at school! It all seems like a losing battle to me. I think they probably  don't have very good boyfriends, lol.

X Bella