Author Topic: trembling!  (Read 17566 times)

sjkravill

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trembling!
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2004, 06:08:48 PM »
Hi again,
Thank you all for your kindness.  Let me see if I can flesh it out some more.  Thanks for all of your thought provoking questions.

What do I love about him?  He has a very sweet, romantic side.  He just sent me a mixed CD for our anniversery of all of the love songs that remind him of me.  He can say the kindest things about me.  Sometimes I am sure he is crazy about me.  I am attracted to how clever he can be (when he is in a non-sadistic way).  He goes to great lengths to make me laugh.  I am attached to him too... because I know him so well.  I know his suffering and I care about him deeply.

I always said I would never let this sort of thing happen to me.  But it sort of sneaks up gradually.  Then, by the time I realize it, the stakes are so high, because I are involved.  Shit!  I am two years married!  I am willing to let things go now, that I would never have tolerated from an objective perspective.

What would ending the relationship mean?  It would mean breaking his heart.  Breaking the hearts of his family, disappointing mine...  It would mean the loss of a dream.  The dream I had of a relatively good marriage that would last a long time. It would mean major heartache and stress.  It would mean the loss of the good times, the loss of some love, the loss of potential and companionship.  Right now, I could not be sure I was doing the right thing.  What if this is just one of those hard times we will get through?  What if it's mostly in my head?
Of course, there is also the fantasy of being independent and free.  I don't know why marriage and independence have to be mutually exclusive in my mind.

What does being free in marriage look like?  Good question.  I wish I could articulate it.  H convinces me that he wants that for me.  So, I start to think I am expecting too much.  He is benevolant and hoping the best for me, and I am only holding myself down. Truthfully, I don't know what I mean by that.

Why must I go back?  I am only away on an internship.  I have big plans to go to my dream grad school in the fall.  We are not separated or even in a state of conflict at the moment.  I want it to all work out.

Why can't I make the appointment for counseling?  Because I need to be convinced that he is committed.  I don't know if the suggestion was only a calculated attempt to get me happy again.

 
Thanks again for your kindness, and letting me process
Peace, sjkravill

Anonymous

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« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2004, 06:40:10 PM »
Hi Sjkravill --

I'm sure this must be very hard for you and I wish you the best in sorting out your feelings.

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Why can't I make the appointment for counseling? Because I need to be convinced that he is committed. I don't know if the suggestion was only a calculated attempt to get me happy again.

However, I agree with Bunny on the issue of therapy. You say that you need to be convinced that he is committed, yet you say it's been several months since he made the offer and you told him you wanted him to make the appointment. If he was serious, he would have done it. By not following through on this, I think you're signalling to him that he can win you over with nice words without actually having to change his behavior.

So call his bluff. Tell him you're making the appointment yourself. If he agrees, you may have taken the first step to some important changes. If he now refuses to go, you'll know that the offer was a sham. Either way, you'll have learned something.

With best wishes,

Morgan

mighty mouse

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« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2004, 08:28:17 PM »
Since you've only been married two years, you have a lot to lose by not getting out now. Why wait until the inevitable happens with kids and lots of investment in time, emotions, etc.?

Your situation sounds like a book I read a few years back called "I closed my eyes". I can't remember the author's name - Michelle something I think. But her husband sounds exactly like yours.....sweet, heart rending notes and all. But he turned out to be a bigtime monster.

Dearest, you are young. You have opportunities us old broads on the board don't have. You have time on your side. But you won't always have it. Most of us have spent too many years giving too much and suffering too much for abusive people. And you are in a "choice" situation meaning you aren't putting up with a parent or sibling or someone you can't get away from.

You sound like you are fantasizing a bit. I don't mean to be patronizing. I just wish you had the hard won knowledge of some of us who are 20-30 years older and have been there, done that so to speak.

Good luck to you.

MM

fifi

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« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2004, 11:58:14 PM »
Hi,
I haven't finished reading all of your response posts, but I had to jump in and comment on a few things.....

the realiziations and admittances of his wrongdoing, the insights, are all tools with which to manipulate you into staying with him and even feeling sorry for him!  Yes, hooks they are!  I have been on the receiving end of so many of these insights and realizations from my xN - it's why I stayed 8 years with him!  They always fill you with hope and you think it's so hard for them to admit their wrongdoing.  But, sadly, it's easy - they know what you want to hear and they produce it for their own purpose of your loyalty.  They don't really have feelings so they're not humiliated, embarrassed, remorseful, etc. upon admitting how wrong they've been, messed up they are, selfish, etc - you and I would feel this way under the same circumstances, but they don't - they lack real feeling.  Do NOT get sucked in.

Also, I left an N recently - after 8 years of marriage.  I have kids.  It was the hardest thing I've ever done in my life to leave, but boy oh boy i feel great now!  I'm free!  I can not describe the simple joy of feeling safe and thinking for yourself!  

I don't know the history of abuse in your relationship, but if you're at all scared of your husband, you have reason to be.  If the abuse is emotional now, it could get physical . If it's "on the edge" of being physical, it will progress.  This is what happened to me.  Therapists will not see this, point it out, etc, for the most part - especially couples' counselors.  It's couples counselors' job to try to work things through.  Who to trust to make this decision?  You!  You're strong, you're smart, and you and your children (I'm sorry if you don't have any and i'm mistaken - i think i read that you do?) deserve to feel healthy!  If that means getting away then go for it.  It may be the hardest thing you'll ever do but it will be the best.

WantsYourOpinion

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« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2004, 01:59:01 AM »
sjkravill:

Check out this webpage:
http://www.drjoecarver.com/loser.html

See if it fits your husband.  Don't lie to yourself; I know about lying to yourself because you love someone.  I loved someone, too, but he doesn't love me.  It only LOOKS like he loves me.  I deserve the real thing and so do you.  Anyone who HURTS you, again and again and again, does NOT love you!  Believe me, I know:  I left my man two months ago and you're right about how much it would hurt you.  It hurt terribly; I was convinced that he loves me (still think so, in his own way, but I'm probably delusional!) and I knew I loved him (except the part that I hated)!  You have to care more about yourself, though, than you care about anyone else.  No one in this world is going to care as much about you as you do (maybe your parents and siblings, that's it).

I don't care that he
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...has a very sweet, romantic side.
 My love had one, too.  He was the most romantic man I've ever known (and I'm older than you with much more experience).  EVERYTHING with him, when he was GOOD, was the best.  He knew just what to say and when to say it; just what to do and when to do it.  But it wasn't worth the PAIN when he WASN'T the "best."  And, by the end, he was not "good" most of the time.  I felt like I was being eaten alive; my personality changed because of him.

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What would ending the relationship mean? It would mean breaking his heart. Breaking the hearts of his family, disappointing mine... It would mean the loss of a dream. The dream I had of a relatively good marriage that would last a long time. It would mean major heartache and stress. It would mean the loss of the good times, the loss of some love, the loss of potential and companionship. Right now, I could not be sure I was doing the right thing. What if this is just one of those hard times we will get through? What if it's mostly in my head?


If he is a narcissist, "breaking his heart" is not possible.  A narcissist loves no one but themselves.  As for the loss of a dream:  even if that were true, that's a very small thing compared with the loss of your SELF.  And if he is a narcissist, you can be sure that you will lose your self if you stay.  And if you must end this marriage, that doesn't mean your dream dies.  You can still have a good marriage that lasts a long time!  You cited a long list of "losses" but I'm telling you that none of those things is worth the loss of your SELF.  Read that list on the webpage I gave very, very carefully and honestly and you should be able to tell, in your heart of hearts, if you would be doing "the right thing."

One of the things that leaped out at me in your initial post was
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...my story of mostly emotional abuse from h just spilled out.
 When you say "mostly" are you saying that he has hit you, shoved you, pushed you, or physically abused you in ANY way?  If so, you shouldn't even look back when you leave!

Sorry if my directness is hurtful; I don't mean to be hurtful but it's amazing how we humans rationalize away reality with what we WANT to see.  We have to have the rationalizations stripped away in order to get to the truth.  It's important, so I'll say it again:  Anyone who HURTS you, again and again and again, does NOT love you!

Portia

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« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2004, 07:11:55 AM »
This is what I think I know about sjkravill.

She’s 22 (maybe 23 by now, don’t know when birthday is).

The sex with this man isn’t good from her point of view. I personally get the feeling of some power thing going on with him, if only in his head, but that’s just a feeling.

Sjkravill has been uneasy sleeping in the same bed/room as him. I wonder if she has ever slept in a bed with a man and felt safe, warm, loved, accepted? That’s a lovely feeling isn’t it gals? Just wonderful quiet sleep with someone you trust completely. One of life’s gifts.

Apart from being romantic, I can’t see what this guy does in terms of a mutual relationship. Personally, I‘d want to marry someone who would care for me if I’d broken all my limbs. Someone who would wipe my bottom. Someone who would love me if I had sh*t all over me, someone who would love me for my mind, my opinions, the stuff I could share with him which together would make us a greater ‘whole’ than two individuals. Someone who sees the world in a similar way. Someone who could have a darn good debate with me about …. er…..whether people are born or made evil.  

Sjkravill does not have any kids. Tricky one this. If she did have kids, she’d probably snap out of this half-life and realise she has to protect the little ones. She’d leave him, no doubt. But she doesn’t have kids and she *only* has her-Self to protect. No big deal then huh? She can let her own life go down the pan. Shame though, she seems such an intelligent, loving, caring person with so much potential. What a sadness that she’s going to let someone suck that life-force from her, make her a slave to his ego. What a tragedy. But what can I do?

Ah well, never mind, there are lots of women like her out there, not living for themselves, worrying about what other people think. Living under the misguided idea that what they do will affect others. It’s a pity they don’t realise just how selfish most people are - for good reasons sometimes – when you keep being cr*pped on, it can make you self-ish huh?

I was real sad when a colleague confided in me that her husband had moved in with another woman. She was 50. It seemed like the marriage of 30 years was over. I asked if she would file for the divorce. Know what she said? She shuffled uncomfortably in her seat and said…. “well yes, but, ahem, well I’m worried about doing it”. Why, I asked? “Because – what will people think of me?” Ah Jeez. I want to take you on a trip round the world, I want to take you tap-dancing, I want to see you ride a camel, snorkel over the Barrier Reef. I want to see you do what you want, once you know what that is. We’ll have great FUN finding out! Stuff duty and obligation and doing what you think you OUGHT to do. Come dancing with me on the square below the Eiffel Tower. We’ll put flowers behind our ears and wink at all the men. We’ll go to Katz’s Deli, which, I only just realised, is where the scene in ‘When Harry met Sally’ was filmed. We’ll do a double fake O scene for real (I bet women do it all the time).

But I didn’t do any of that with my colleague 4 years ago and I still think about her about once a month, wonder how she is. Maybe I could call her. I dunno. She probably wouldn’t want to do any of those things anyway. I don’t think she knew how to have fun, she was tethered by the ropes of her childhood I guess. Sad. Ah well, never mind.

Portia

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« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2004, 07:47:12 AM »
I’ve been thinking more about my colleague. She had two boys. She stopped work to care for them and raise them. They did okay for themselves. They had their mother’s love. But I guess her hubby didn’t exactly show respect for her, coz her boys grew up to treat her like a doormat. One had a big City job, making loads of money. She still cooked their meals, did their washing and these lads are in their early 20s. She felt it was her duty I guess. When she needed an operation, they didn’t put themselves out to take her to the hospital. Another colleague took her instead, looked after her. Then hubby found a younger lady, one who could reignite his dibbly. So he left. But younger lady didn’t cook his meals, didn’t care for him in the same way. So he turned up on my lady’s doorstep, crying, saying he didn’t know if he’d done the right thing.

What did she do? She empathised with him. Said it broke her heart to see him in that ‘dark place’ he was in. They had two weeks’ holiday booked just after he’d left. What did she do for that two weeks? She sat on her sofa in her dressing gown. For two weeks. Then she came back to work. She worked for me. I had no idea this was going on at the time. Why? Coz she was a-shamed. She kept it secret, felt it was all her fault. And she was so confused. She’d done all the right things in life, what happened? He would have retired soon, “we would have been in clover” she said to me. Got to do all those things she’d imagined. Moved to the coast, grown a beautiful big garden. Instead she sits alone, in her dressing gown, wondering what went wrong. At 50. It’s no big deal is it? It happens all the time. All the time.

fifi

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« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2004, 11:22:59 PM »
Hi again,
And just 2 other thoughts to your post -

You say he's romantic - that he gave you a tape of the songs you shared  or that reminded him of times you spent together, and how this is so sweet of him.  I'ts not sweet of him.  Sweet of him would be to give you something that you treasure - that you alone (not him) are interested in.  He's not thinking of you necessarily in giving you this gift of "your songs" - he's guilting you into staying.  In giving you this gift, he's saying, "look, look at what we've shared.  We're special together.  Remember these good times."  This is manipulation and is a ploy to pull on your heartstrings.  Of course, I don't know your N so i could be totally wrong - i'm just fitting his actions in to what i've seen from Ns.  All the pulling on heartstrings, manipulation.  Be wary of it.

His family - you say you like them so much.  Be careful about trusting/ garnering feedback from them.  They see your N with as all families do, with a biased eye.  They will make excuses for him, describe his malicious actions in not -so-bad terms.  They will remind you that he's a good soul.  They may be blind parents, or they may be Ns themselves.  Also, maybe you like them bc they're different from your own parents?  Or, they are so nice on the surface? When I questioned my Ns family about some of my ex N's behavior, they minimized it, admitted "He's difficult but worth it", etc. etc.  His mom I realized is an N and his dad is so crushed from his wife (the ball busting N) (sorry for the profanity)that he has no opinion left in him.  

That's my 2 cents.  Stay strong.  See clearly.  Keep talking.  We're here.

Anonymous

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« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2004, 01:25:37 PM »
I feel some unfair assumptions were made about me in portia's post.  I understand the good intent.  I don't want to spend time correcting things.  I just want to say that for me, at this juncture, there is a fine line between helping with honesty, and assuming too much which sort of kicks me when I am down.
peace, sjkravill

Portia guest

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« Reply #24 on: July 26, 2004, 09:12:12 AM »
Hey sjkravill: I talked about you and now you’re talking about me! Wow! Did I annoy you? Shall we talk to each other again? Hey, I’m going to talk to you, you can choose to ignore me or whatever, I don’t mind, honestly, I don’t mind.

Okay, if I’m assuming too much, so what? It’s just how I see things. No big deal. Who am I? Does it matter what I say to you? I’m not saying any of it is factual, just my perspective, what I think I know.

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I understand the good intent.
In what way do you understand it? This is a serious question.

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which sort of kicks me when I am down.
Why does it kick you? What in what I said ‘kicks you’? I really don’t understand this. Or I don't understand what you mean by 'kicks'.

You can come back and correct me, but you say you don’t want to spend time correcting things. Okay. But it was not my intention to kick you when you’re down, most definitely not. If you like I’ll tell you what my intention was, truly, but I’m not sure you want to hear from me again. Whatever, it’s okay, I don’t mind. There are other people on this thread who aren’t saying things like I’ve said them and maybe their words will help pick you up again, because it reads like they really do care and they’re putting themselves out for you.  Hey and I thought maybe I should apologise when I first read your post, but I’m not sure what I should be apologising for. I don’t think I kicked you. And unless you do correct me, I won’t know. So I’m sorry (!) but I can’t apologise yet. Hope that makes sense. P

OutOfLurkMode

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« Reply #25 on: July 26, 2004, 11:43:22 AM »
Dear sjkravill,

I'm in & out in this forum, and I felt compelled to come out of lurk mode to reply to this.

In the midst of all you are going through, I wouldn't concern yourself with messages that you find antagonzing, and especially getting into explaining why they antagonized you.   I think you were very wise not to become explanatory last time around.  

If it were me, I'd simply let these things flow into the wind & disappear, and focus on the most important issues in life, now (which I'm sure you are doing).  

You can save your writing time and emotional energy for the exchanges that fit well with your spirit, and let go of what you feel doesn't suit you.  

For what it is worth, I also felt the same as you regarding the e-mail you were speaking about (and the 2nd for that matter).   To me only (my "opinion"), it lacked diplomacy, seemed cavalier, and all of the assuming about you & your life (in very private areas as well), felt inappropriate.

People have dif. writing styles and the writer says this was not their intent.   But if the writer knows they have offended someone, particularly someone in a very, very shaky place emotionally at that time, whether unintended,  a simple "I'm so sorry you were offended" instead of "explain to me why you were offended in detail-I don't see it- I cant' say sorry now", would go a long way.    

However, it would require the writer's empathy.  The ability to step outside of themselves (it isn't about them) for a moment, and consider the vantage point of someone else.

If the writer does not reconize this, I guess it is just a matter of "agreeing to disagree".   No point in getting hooked into arguments.   That is why I will not be commenting to any remarks made on this posting.

I simply wanted to relay these things to sjkravill, and also my hope that she is doing well.

bunny

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« Reply #26 on: July 26, 2004, 12:15:00 PM »
Quote from: sjkravill
What do I love about him?  He has a very sweet, romantic side.  He just sent me a mixed CD for our anniversery of all of the love songs that remind him of me.  He can say the kindest things about me.  Sometimes I am sure he is crazy about me.  I am attracted to how clever he can be (when he is in a non-sadistic way).  He goes to great lengths to make me laugh.  I am attached to him too... because I know him so well.  I know his suffering and I care about him deeply.


I take it at face value that he is crazy about you. You still have to decide whether or not he is qualified as a life-partner for you.

I'm wondering how sadistic he is. My H has been emotionally sadistic to me when he felt cornered. I thought he was being immature and defending himself in a primitive way. His sadism was brought up in therapy and he was confronted about it. I also had to acknowledge my own sadism which comes out sometimes. So my question is, how serious is the sadism, and how typical of his personality is it? Does he enjoy it? Does it feel normal to him? Does it ever make him feel guilty? This is a significant couples therapy topic.


Quote from: sjkravill
Of course, there is also the fantasy of being independent and free.  I don't know why marriage and independence have to be mutually exclusive in my mind.

What does being free in marriage look like?  Good question.  I wish I could articulate it.  H convinces me that he wants that for me.  So, I start to think I am expecting too much.  He is benevolant and hoping the best for me, and I am only holding myself down. Truthfully, I don't know what I mean by that.


Being married is not being independent. You can't do whatever you want, whenever you want. You may be confused about the difference between autonomy and independence. Autonomy is about having authority over yourself and making decisions regarding yourself. Independence is more about doing whatever you want and answering to no one. In marriage, I am independent *within limits*. But marriage doesn't limit my autonomy.


Quote from: sjkravill
Why can't I make the appointment for counseling?  Because I need to be convinced that he is committed.  I don't know if the suggestion was only a calculated attempt to get me happy again.


How about making an appointment and asking this question in front of the therapist? If you want your marriage to work out, you may have to take a pro-active stance. It sounds like you're either testing him (I think he's failed the test already so why bother continuing it), or passively waiting for him to do something.

take care,
bunny

bunny

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« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2004, 12:18:15 PM »
Quote from: Portia
This is what I think I know about sjkravill.


Portia,

I love ya but I can see how this rubbed her the wrong way. It would have done this to me as well.

your friend,
bunny

nassim

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« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2004, 02:43:30 PM »
I know this isn't a spitting contest (I left out the other more vulgar version), but I don't waste my time being offended because it gives your power to another person. It really doesn't matter what another person says or does, if it has no truth, it shouldn't touch you. If it has truth, maybe you should examine deeper.

Many of us give apologies too easily without asking questions. We have been conditioned by Ns and others that we are always wrong. I think it's a healthy thing for Portia to ask for clarifying information before she gives an apology. That way she won't feel hijacked so to speak.

I'm not saying anyone is a N here. Please don't misunderstand that. Sjkvrill did say she needed help. I see a lot of people giving good advice. "LOVE" shouldn't be that trying. If it is, perhaps something is wrong. S is young and has no kids. Better to know the truth now while there is still time. And the truth sometimes does hurt. Maybe that should be more of an indicator than what any one poster says. I think everyone knows by now that Portia has a great heart.

And I wish sjkvrill the best with trying to reconcile this relationship.

Nassim

renee

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« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2004, 03:21:44 PM »
To everyone,

Hi. I just want to point out that just because someone gets offended doesn't mean the "offender" necessarily did anything wrong. I have had experience with people who get offended very easily and have learned that this is more about them than anyone else.

I am not saying that sjkvrill did anything wrong either. If someone says they are offened, I do think it's something they should explain IMO. If not, the other party can't defend themselves. It's just a fair thing to do.

Renee