Dr Phil Show Yesterday

[reallyME]

Did anyone see the Dr Phil show yesterday with the mother and daughter, Sue and Heidi?

The daughter was molested by her step dad for years and the mother did nothing.  As I watched, it became very clear to me that the mother had bpd signs and the daughter was an N.  I'd like to discuss this with anyone here.

~Laura

[Hops guest]

Dr. P is surely an N...

I understood the anger when the mother said "And now she's got an attitude..." though. I know the mother may have had Stockholm Syndrome, as many dependent emotionally crippled women do, because of our culture and teachings that train women to have no self-respect or courage.

I didn't see the show, only the preview, but I think it's very frustrating to those who do accept responsibility for having failed their children, to see someone whose child was so horribly abused not be fully accountable.

It would be hard, but the mother should still apologize to her child for the terrible harm done. EVEN IF she didn't know how to do better by her child at the time it happened, the only way for healing to happen is for her to take full accountability now.

I think a lot of people feel they never need to apologize for anything because "It was the best I knew how to do at the time." I don't agree. With children, I think it's important to give a profoundly sincere apology for any damage your action or inaction caused them. Just owning the reality of it.

It doesn't mean you have to begin hating yourself, but that's what I think apologies are often confused with.

(This may have no relationship to the actual show...sorry!)

Hops

[Gabben]

I thought it was appalling how Dr. Phil badgered the mom - basically browbeat her publicly. There ARE situations where the mom is just as much a victim as her daughter was and he missed that by a mile. I don't like labels... what I got from the story (I came into it in the middle) was that the mom believed she wasn't able to afford to live - knew about the abuse - and felt she had no choice. Dr. Phil only yelled at her for this... never even looking for the self-image issues in the mom that might've been underlying. No - he simply judged her before god and the cameras, as if she were not human, along with the daughter.

It was only so much drama, scripted for the cameras and it made me sick to my stomach for everyone involved.

Wow -- you are actually identifying with the mom? The mom's behavior was evil!

Lise

[Hopalong]

Hello Lise,
No, I don't identify with the mom. What an assumption.

I was discussing the issue of being fully accountable for any harm one's actions as a parent have caused one's child, and the healing value of owning that completely through apology. (As this mother apparently hadn't done, as she was in a way still blaming her daughter. "She's got an attitude.")

My child was never abused. But I made mistakes that hurt her, or dimmed part of her childhood.

Many parents do, I think. I think what heals it is once you mature enought to own it, to apologize from the heart. Then you've created space in the relationship for forgiveness.

Hops

[Gabben]

Hello Lise,
No, I don't identify with the mom. What an assumption.

I was discussing the issue of being fully accountable for any harm one's actions as a parent have caused one's child, and the healing value of owning that completely through apology. (As this mother apparently hadn't done, as she was in a way still blaming her daughter. "She's got an attitude.")

Hops

Hi Hops -- that was not for you. I never even read your post. What an assumption.

But when I did read your post to me I was relived to see that you too can see that the parent was not capable of owning her wrong. If the mother was capable of self-reflection and was able to empathize with the daughter then the daughter might begin to heal.

Lise

[Hopalong]

Sorry, Lise....I jumped to conclusions.

Ooops.

Hops

[reallyME]

Wow! thanks for all your comments on this.

I believe the mother met this creepy sociopath/molester, married him and then, typical of socios, he isolated her, maybe threatened her, abused her, and then had his way with her daughter, by manipulating the little girl into doing what he "deserved" that mommy wouldn't give him.  Children can be guilted very easily!  (speculation on my part, but it could have been the case)

I also believe that the mother, most likely having been told "you are NOTHING without me...what are you gonna do?  you can't work, you can't drive, you can't ____________...without me, you'll go insane"  (or some such drivel)...after a while, a person can be so devestated that they come to believe a bunch of lies and they begin to fear rising up to oppose the abuser (more speculation on my end)

Finally, the mother couldn't leave because she had a state of learned helplessness.  She couldn't stop the molesting of the girl for the same reason.  Maybe the guy threatened her with blackmail or death...who knows...I'm sure there was much more to this story.

Now, the mother is mentally ill, which was clear to see from her flat affect and dazed look.  She just kept insisting she didn't know...which to me, appeared to be a defense mechanism 'if I didn't "see it" then it didn't happen."

Unfortunately, due to the daughter having to go it alone, she learned to become a narcissistic character.  She now feels superior to people and has the entire image thing goin on.  Did you happen to notice how anorexic the daughter looked?  I am guessing this has something to do with an overall picture as well.

As far as the mother being made to apologize, I think she needs counseling before she can even FACE the truth of what happened to herself and then to her daughter.  She needs therapy and THEN needs to apologize and probably go through some spiritual inner healing and deliverance while we're at it.

~Laura

[Gaining Strength]

I thought there were many,many issues with that mother daughter pair.  I only saw a small bit.  I did not see enough to  come away with the feeling that the daughter was an N.  How did she exhibit that?

What was very, very sad to me was the mother's repeated complaints about the daughter's attitude.  As a bystander - that was appalling.  With empathy, it demonstrated an enormous disconnect on the mother's part - but I can't quite label it.

[Leah]

Hello Lise,
No, I don't identify with the mom. What an assumption.

I was discussing the issue of being fully accountable for any harm one's actions as a parent have caused one's child, and the healing value of owning that completely through apology. (As this mother apparently hadn't done, as she was in a way still blaming her daughter. "She's got an attitude.")

My child was never abused. But I made mistakes that hurt her, or dimmed part of her childhood.

Many parents do, I think. I think what heals it is once you mature enought to own it, to apologize from the heart. Then you've created space in the relationship for forgiveness.
Hops

I resonate with accord.

That healing comes from ownership, and an apology from the heart.  Which creates a wide open door -- to healing.

Leah x

[reallyME]

As far as why people go to the Dr Phil show, well, had you been watching it the day before this episode, you'd have seen all the people whose lives were changed after coming to his show.

GS: I thought there were many,many issues with that mother daughter pair.  I only saw a small bit.  I did not see enough to  come away with the feeling that the daughter was an N.  How did she exhibit that?

The daughter, first of all looked extremely anorexic, which is a good indication of severe issues going on.  Secondly, the daughter put all the blame on the mother and none on the molester.  She also continually mocked and scoffed at her mother.  She was clearly all about "looking good" through the entire program.  I don't know...I can just spot N's really quickly.

What was very, very sad to me was the mother's repeated complaints about the daughter's attitude.  As a bystander - that was appalling.  With empathy, it demonstrated an enormous disconnect on the mother's part - but I can't quite label it.

I would have told the daughter she had an attitude too.  The mother can't have empathy...she was messed up in the head long ago, hence why she raised an N for a daughter.  As I taught my mentee today, people cannot give what they do not have.  That mother had no love or protection to give, so she couldn't give it.

~Laura

[Gaining Strength]

That mother had no love or protection to give, so she couldn't give it.

That's true. 

(Hello Lupine - it's good to see you again.  Where in the world have you been?)

[sea storm]

Oh the poor mother.   What??????   Aere you kidding. She was an adult and had some choice in the matter. Of course her daughter was angry at her mother. Even Jesus who had no end of compassion drew a line in the sand indicating there were things that you don't do and boundaries you don't cross.
For me personally, one of those boundaries is child molestation. It is a crime and one that I waste no tears on the offender for. I work with children who have been sexually abused.  They really don't have anywhere to go unlike thier parents. I believe that no matter how abused we are there is still some kernel of soul and some place of integrity. If we don't protect children from soul murder, then what are we?
As tor the daughter having Attitude. I say thank god she still has her anger because without that she would be in complete dispair over being sold out by her mother.
There is such thing as evil and there are people with no conscious or very little sense of remorse about anything. This is not the result of Stockholm Syndrowe. They are damaged sure but giving them empathy is downright dangerous and misguided.
I agree with Dr. Phil on this one.
I did npt come from a healthy background and I ended up being in a battering relationship and I think I did sense that there was something icky about my partners relationship with his daughter. I made the call.  The person who handled the call botched it and let the offender know I was the one who turned him in. My life was hell and there were death threats and much more.  I don't know anyone who would let a woman off the hook for pimping her own child under any circumstances. This is not garden variety abuse. It is the deepest and most heinous wound a child can recieve and it is worse than you can imagine.
Empathy for the mother. No. Empahty for the child who is mortanlly and spiritually wounded. You bet. Calling her trauma and the resultant defenses " Attitude" is so sad to me.
Dr. Phil obviously could not resolve all this in one session. Just bringing it to light is amazing.  Unsually he wraps things up pretty quickly. The audience is used to this. The problems between mother and daughter in incest counselling needs to be handled very skillfully and very tenderly. Of course. Everything does.  Parading these people on tv is kind of revolting and us watching it with relish is revolting. Voyeurism.
The good part is that we are talking about it.  It exists.

Calling the daughter an N because she is traumatized is not helpful. She probably struggles with suicidal thoughts, abandonment issues and a pathetic self image. Better to deal with those things first. I always tell kids they did not deserve to have that happen. It was not there fault. Paerents are there to help them and protect them. If they don't, then they fail as parents. And have to wear the pain of thier failure
Sea storm

[reallyME]

Sea Storm,

I have counseled many adult child abuse victims, and I can tell you that every time I have, I've told them it wasn't their fault, which is the truth.  This daughter on the Dr Phil show, KNOWS IT WAS NOT HER FAULT, however, wants to scapegoat someone, so TAG, the mother gets ALL the blame.

I was not letting the mother off the hook by any means.  I was saying that the mother most likely had been victimized to a point that she did not know what to do to leave the situation.  Yes, she could definitely have avoided having the husband anywhere near the daughter!  This situation HITS HOME, being that my sisters in law were both molested by their "father/step-father"

There are always REASONS why people do what they do, was all I was getting at.  And yes, due to having a mother that was obviously emotionally ABSENT and a father that was sick in the head, that daughter came to count ONLY on her self...NARCISSISTIC.  Why has that become such a dirty word around here?  Someone who shows little forgiveness and empathy, who looks anorexic for sure, and who sits and MOCKS a woman when Dr Phil is trying to get the full story...THAT is narcissistic.  I have SEEN THOSE LOOKS AND HEARD T HOSE MOCKING SNEERS toward me, so believe me, I recognize it...victim or not...they ALL need help

[Hopalong]

Oh, my dear.

or myself (for not fighting harder)

amber, you mean you struggle to forgive your 12-year-old self for not succeeding against a rapist?

(((((((((((((((((((((((12 y/o amber))))))))))))))))))))

much huge love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Sweet Amber, of course.

the lack of any emotional support just exhausted Twiggy. She was out of ideas and energy. She met an immovable force in her mother's denial. She collapsed in exhaustion and just gave up

As a grown woman who took judo and with decades of feisty feminism under my belt, I would have dissolved too. Not sure I would have ever come out of it. I might have done a Sylvia Plath.

Please don't hold poor 12 y/o Amber responsible for not being able to "make her mother believe." It's devastating that she didn't believe you. Shattering. The worst letdown I can conceive of.

There are "rational" adults walking around saying the Holocaust didn't happen. There are prisons full of murderous adults saying "I'm innocent". The earth is full of weak thinkers who just can't face reality. Because their minds are not strong. They haven't learned that accountability strengthens rather than weakens you.

Your mother's denial was strong in matching proportion to the weakness of her character. A perfect balance. If one part dipped the other would rise; this was her homeostasis.

What 12 year-old could possibly, possibly, ever be expected to "make" that yield? NONE. ANYWHERE.

It's an unrealistic and mammothly unfair thing to ask of her. Oh let her off the hook. Please pronounce her innocent of "not fighting hard enough". She WAS just as exhausted, depleted, and emptied of fighting spirit as you say. That is TRUE. So of course she couldn't do it.

It was just too big a job for one small girl. As it's too big a challenge for so many adults in the world.

You're a reasonable woman!!!!! And smart!!!! You wouldn't ask a burro to carry an elephant's load. Ain't it time to stop asking little Amber to have been a superhuman? Phooey. She was amazing, that girl. She survived. And now you are a terrific woman--sane, whole and capable of love and great creativity.

You PASSED this test. You're not splintered any more.

lots and lots of love to you,
Hops