Rape of the Heart

[Ami]

Dear Carolyn,
  I do feel "unsettled " with your response,but we will just leave it at that.                             Ami

[Certain Hope]

Dear Carolyn,
  I do feel "unsettled " with your response,but we will just leave it at that.                             Ami

Thank you, Ami. I don't want to say anything that might cause you a setback or delay your movement through the stages of grieving your loss, and so I think that is best. The issue or problem is mine, not yourse, and I will continue to pray about it... as I've been doing... and this is as far as I've gotten so far. I do wish you well.

Carolyn

[Leah]

Dear Ami,

I have to sign off now, please know that you remain in my prayers.

Very much looking forward to you sharing of God's pure Words, from Ann.

Love, Leah

[Ami]

You know, Carolyn, I will say this. The old adage,"If you cannot say s/thing nice, Don't say anything" applies here(IMO).It really is your problem if you cannot be gracious enough to get out an"I am sorry". Even ,if you could not do that,it was VERY boorish of you to tell me the explanation of WHY you could not say you were sorry.
                                                                                                    Ami
 

[Certain Hope]

You know, Carolyn, I will say this. The old adage,"If you cannot say s/thing nice, Don't say anything" applies here(IMO).It really is your problem if you cannot be gracious enough to get out an"I am sorry". Even ,if you could not do that,it was VERY boorish of you to tell me the explanation of WHY you could not say you were sorry.
                                                                                                    Ami
 

Ami,

I think you're right. It was very boorish of me to attempt an explanation... and I am sorry.

Carolyn

[Ami]

Dear Carolyn,
  I have to say this for myself, Carolyn.I have interacted with many,many people since Scott's death. No one has treated me with such a lacking in human warmth, as you have.It is MY  lack that I care.It is MY immaturity that it upsets me.
  It is my next lesson --- that what does it matter at ALL what you say or think?
                    Ami
 

[Gabben]

  That lesson could apply to you, in this case,Lise. Even if she turns people against you, you are strong enough to go on. it won't kill you.
   That is how I see it, anyway.              Love    Ami

Ami -- thanks for your support and encouragement, your very clear and you have some profound wisdom pouring out of you these days -- what a blessing you are.

I see it that way too, "it won't kill you." Right!!

There are no quick fixes we just have to re-feel and experience our old pain and new pains.

My new spiritual director tells me that talking about the trauma and rehashing is part of what helps us and part of what allows us to get the old pain out so that we are not continuing to act out the drama. Quite frankly I have not been judging N saint -- just hurting and angry from the injustice of her wounds.

I'm just trying to feel and work out my pain -- not do a quick fix.

Ami -- if you get a chance please read the envious pattern thread -- it outlines all the ways I have been looking at myself. If you get another chance read the "safe people" thread, it outlines all of the ways in which I have written about MY PART with n saint and my mom, I'm about 20 steps ahead of you


Your lessons with Ann are not always going to fit to me and they are not always going to me my lessons right at that time. You and I are at different stages and places of our healing journey but both of us have value, wisdom and insights to share. 

Your time and love that you give me to try to help me is appreciated and cherished by me.

Thanks for your patience and compassion (((((((((((AMI))))))))))) You teach me about strength and humility.

Peace,
Lise

[Ami]

That is so sweet,Lise. I will try to read the threads. My brain is not very clear these days, so it may take me awhile.
 I will write more ,later.                           Love    Ami

((((((((Lise)))))))))))))

[Gabben]

Dear Ami and Carolyn,


Reading your posts to each other was difficult for me. However, I feel confident that you will both work out your difficulties.

Ami -- I hear that at this time your life you are struggling with feelings of resentment towards Carolyn for her now admitted judgement of the situation of Scott's death?

I hear your pain and how much that would hurt to feel judged by someone at this time in your life because it must be touching that deepest fear and that most sensitive spot.

Since Scotts death I have been hearing you in facing yourself but I am also hearing you condem your own self FIRST, as a defense against the truly dreaded fear of others judgement and condemnation.

It is as if you are saying "it was all my fault, world, please don't judge me." This way you can ward off anyones judgement as a sort of defense.
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People are going to judge us/you and just like you told me in your good advice, it won't kill you what others think.

The pain, anguish, heartache, shame and guilt you are suffering breaks my heart for you.

Here is what I do when I feel resentment and I want to get free:


(And, yes -- I am taking your inventory.)


Who                   Why                              What part of self it threatens                                    My part/or wrongs

Carolyn                 Because she judged me                  Self--esteem                                                                    Selfish
                                                                              Ego/Pride                                                                        Self -seeking
                                                                              Emotional security                                                             dishonest
                                                                              Sex relations  and hidden agendas                                       inconsiderate
                                                                                                                                                                   frieghtended

The bottom line is fear -- God gave us our instincts and  he wants to provide we just do not trust him.

Having faith is one of the hardest things I am facing right now. Despite the pain and anguish I have been in I have to just persevere, no retaliation just have faith and do what in's front of me each day that I know is good and right.

Ami - I am glad that you spoke your heart and mind to Carolyn -- I know that Carolyn meant you no harm but I know that it must have hurt.

You are OK ((((((((((AMI))))))))))

Lise

[Ami]

Dear Lise,
  I need to disagree with a point of yours. IMO, Carolyn meant me harm b/c no one who has lived on this earth as long as she has and could  be THAT callous ,unless they meant to.
  However , that being said, this is a point that could be argued ,forever,what is in a person's mind.
  I just need to say it, as I see it-- Carolyn meant to hurt me when I was down and weak. She saved it up .
  That is my intuition,on it and Carolyn can say 'yeah" or "nay" forever, and it will not change  my mind.
   It is not really a point that can  be argued b/c it is "mind reading".  Thanks Lise ,for trying to make a situation that cannot be resolved, resolvable(lol). Some things can't be made "pretty" or better. This comes under that heading for me. I can  grow and learn ,though,so I will do that.                                           Love   Ami

[Gabben]

Dear Lise,
  I need to disagree with a point of yours. IMO, Carolyn meant me harm b/c no one who has lived on this earth as long as she has and could be THAT callous ,unless they meant to.
 

Ami -- your accusing Carolyn of callousness because she did not express sympathy for your loss?

There were hundred of people expressing their love and support to you Ami.

I had to force myself to post on your "please pray for me thread" not because I did not feel deep sympathy and compassion for you but because I just could not find words to say. -- People get like that when confusing tragedy strikes.

Did it ever occur to you that Carolyn just did not have anything say and that it was not so black and white as calling her cruel but more a mix of issues?

Lise

[Ami]

Lise,
 I will not change my mind about Carolyn's intentions--deliberate cruelty. I really don't want to discuss it,anymore,b/c no one can really know the truth b/c it is "mind reading "Carolyn's mind.So, it is silly to discuss it further,Lise.
                 Ami

[Gabben]

OK, done -- good thinking, your right. Lise

[Ami]

Thank you,Lise, for respecting me on this!!!!!            Love, Ami

[Gaining Strength]

Ami -- your accusing Carolyn of callousness because she did not express sympathy for your loss?

Actually Gabben - Ami accused Certain Hope of judging her because Certain Hope said
she was judging her.

Yes, Ami, I feel that I must have been judging you, but I'm not even completely sure why... and so I can't really explain further.

I have this thing where I cannot say something unless I really believe it and feel it...  and so when my feelings blank out, I cannot cover that up with words just to fill in the blanks. I just can't. It's a sort of speechlessness which I cannot even explain. I'm sorry that's the best explanation I have at this point.

It is the verbalized judgement that is callous at this time.

One of the 12 steps calls for a person to take their own inventory and to apologize to those who we have harmed unless doing so causes more harm.  That is what this apology did.  I have stood by and not said anything because I did not want to start a fight and I would expect Certain Hope or anyone to be caught up short by having one's actions called "callous" and yet I have decided that the ethic was greater to support the mother of a child who tragically chose on their own volition, at a time of compromised ability to make sound judgments, to take their life.  

While most things here on the board are valid opportunities to work through our own woundings and ensuing struggles, the extraordinary sensitivity of Ami's loss is simply different and should be held to a different standard out of common decency.  And it is out of my own sense of decency that I decided to post my views here at this time, even at the risk of offending Certain Hope.