How do you defend yourself when the N has everyone fooled?

[Certain Hope]

In my experience and by my observations N often try to destroy our standing with others and can be very successful at it. They seem to do it when we are most vulnerable.  I had this happen to me at my very lowest.  It is tragic that they are usually very successful.  In my experience there is no winning i.e. no undoing the damage.  If you try to appeal you case to the people the N has turned against you somehow the N always wins and you can get sucked in deeper and deeper into the mire.  I am not suggesting that it is easy, I am only suggesting that the stock market metaphor applies here - cut your losses and get out.  And don't worry about the timing - just go and leave the people who chose the N over you behind - no matter how painful.  It is like being a refugee from your embattled homeland.  Life will never be the same but you can opt for a new life in a foreign land or you can risk your life by staying in the war.  Not great options.

... and God help you when N witnesses you make a mistake, an error in judgment... because when else are we more vulnerable? And there is shiny N, all loaded with ammo (some of which you actually have supplied yourself, for once) and ready to drill you full of holes.

When walking away is not an option - or not your preference, whatever - I opt for standing tall in a well known pattern of honesty and integrity, confessing to being a frail, fallible human being, and continuing to live life by God's grace, with no looking back.

Love,
Carolyn

[Leah]

In my experience and by my observations N often try to destroy our standing with others and can be very successful at it. They seem to do it when we are most vulnerable.  I had this happen to me at my very lowest.  It is tragic that they are usually very successful.  In my experience there is no winning i.e. no undoing the damage.  If you try to appeal you case to the people the N has turned against you somehow the N always wins and you can get sucked in deeper and deeper into the mire.  I am not suggesting that it is easy, I am only suggesting that the stock market metaphor applies here - cut your losses and get out.  And don't worry about the timing - just go and leave the people who chose the N over you behind - no matter how painful.  It is like being a refugee from your embattled homeland.  Life will never be the same but you can opt for a new life in a foreign land or you can risk your life by staying in the war.  Not great options.

Dear GS

I am copying down your words of wisdom, all of which, are precious affirming, validating, priceless pearls.

Leah x

[Gabben]

Aha

This is where I posted my heart out when I told how th N had fooled everyone and I was left out of the whole picture.
No response/acknowledgment.
I was surprised at no response.................. then I guessed it was me?
Izzy

Hi Izzy,

It was not you it was me. I read your post but I was too absorbed in my own pain at the time to really give it much consideration. Your post rented space in my mind and I was thinking to myself "I'll get to Izzy's post."   

It was also hard for me to follow your story but I WAS interested. Will you post your story again for me, I'd like to read it?

Dear (((Izzy))) -- I'm sorry if you felt un-acknowledged --- that must have hurt.  I wish to give you every bit if respect and consideration you truly deserve. Please forgive me.

(I'm glad you used your voice and spoke up )
Love.

[Gabben]

Hi Lise,

A turning point was when I stopped running.  I didn't invite the N into my space, but when they showed up to step on my toes I was ready and had a new attitude - Bring it On.

When it's their issue, not yours, nothing really phases you anymore.  They act like a jerk and I say to myself:  oh, there's that jerk again.  (yawn)

(this does not mean I don't get angry, frustrated, moody, etc - I just understand the reason why - and say So what)

bean

Hi Bean -- your post was helpful.

There is the issue of aggression. It is sort of like you are sitting in a car with your younger brother who is tormenting you, you ignore it because you know that he is doing it just to get a rise out of you and make you mad. But he won't stop, everytime mom is not looking he grabs your hair and pulls it all the while you are trying to read your book and trying to mind your own business. You keep ignoring him as he keeps pulling, spitting and tugging, all when know one is looking. Finally, out of pent up frustration, you yell "STOP IT!"  Then your mom turns around to yell at you to lower your voice. You try to explain to her what bro is doing, she tells you that you are being reactive, making you feel ashamed. All the while little brother is in the back rolling on the floor laughing at you.

Bottom line this persons taunting is not going to kill me. I'll just wish them happiness and offer up the annoyance as suffering

Good to hear from you Bean.

Lise

[Certain Hope]

Bottom line this persons taunting is not going to kill me. I'll just wish them happiness and offer up the annoyance as suffering

          ((((((Lise)))))))  sounds like a plan to me!

[seasons]

Hi Lise,
Just saw your post after a morning on the phone with my oldest sister N.

I told her about a bad dream I had, BIG MISTAKE! I am already paying the price. Gave her ammo.
Anyway she kept on harping about how others think of "US". That our sister Trish has brain washed everyone (extended family, female cousins mainly) that we are the bad sisters, mean, leave her out etc.
She is mad that our sister hasn't called her in 5 weeks. She wants her and I DON"T. She wont listen, or hear me.
She said we were blacklisted by many.
I again don't care, and I also believe middle sister has won, as far as playing the victim.

Just liked you described, pushes and taunts you and then you speak up, maybe loudly and you look like the bully, troublemaker etc.

I once confided with one of my cousins. I poured my hear out. At the time didn't know what was my sisters problem, Narcissistic.
She never wanted to cross the line and be on any side. But I so much wanted to hear, that must of been very painful, sorry to hear that happened. More of a gentle silence I got.
I'm sure her communication with my sisters were only the show time faces, and couldn't grasp such ugliness. I understood in my heart, I thought........

Yet once this year after spending a weekend with my sister at a wedding out of state, I did not attend.
She sends me an email. One sentence.


"YOUR SISTER IS AWESOME!" 

I felt so betrayed knowing I shared such deep pain with her. Why did she have to tell me that? She could of told plenty of people if she wanted to share how great my sister is. When she knows my heart cannot share that with her.
Again, my sister played herself up at this wedding, everyone falling all over her stories of herself, always saintly.

It still is painful to think about.
It is still painful that my oldest sister wants us to be a PAIR. When she herself is extremely narcissistic. I don't want to be with people that don't see me.
I know I need to escape from one last sister, but it is very hard.

Thank you (Lise) I understand and feel your words. seasons

[Certain Hope]

((((((((((((((Seasons)))))))))))))))  Reading your post I felt so much disappointment and hurt for you.... you so much deserve to be seen and valued and cherished for who you are! 
But some peoples' vision only goes so shallow... I guess they see what they want to see, because that's easiest for them - and it doesn't take alot of time out of their busy schedules and away from tending themselves. 
You are cherished, dear Seasons.. and highly valued.

Love,
Carolyn

[seasons]

Thank you Carolyn, that was so very kind of you. Feeling kinda weak today, your voice brought me comfort and truth.


 

I guess they see what they want to see, because that's easiest for them

A wonderful reminder when you are feeling a bit low.

Much love and peace to you always. seasons

[Gabben]

I felt so betrayed knowing I shared such deep pain with her. Why did she have to tell me that? She could of told plenty of people if she wanted to share how great my sister is. When she knows my heart cannot share that with her.
Again, my sister played herself up at this wedding, everyone falling all over her stories of herself, always saintly.

Dear Seasons,

I've been thinking about you lately.

The pain of betrayal is for me the worst, it just really hurts. I'm glad that you took the time to write this out and tell us about your pain.

The elusive pain of manipulation and other people's denial is so very hurtful and leaves us feeling helpless, if you know what I mean and I know you do.

"I don't want to be with people that don't see me."

Oh boy do I know this-- ouch. Others on this thread have said some good things here about this that have helped strengthen me and see the reality that I can't change the situation but this stuff can be overcome. And, as much as I want to change them or the situation, I have to change me and my attitudes towards the N's (good information)

However, I do not know about you but my little inner girl is throwing a tantrum right about now...she kicking and screaming "no" they change, not me!!!! All the while my adult is saying OK - I hear your pain.

Some days are better than others, if you know what mean? (((((((((((((((((((SEASONS)))))))))))))))))

Lise

[seasons]

And, as much as I want to change them or the situation, I have to change me and my attitudes towards the N's (good information)

I agree their is a wealth of help on your thread. I am eager to learn and take the truth in. Very N broken down today. Tomorrow will be better.

However, I do not know about you but my little inner girl is throwing a tantrum right about now...she kicking and screaming "no" they change, not me!!!! All the while my adult is saying OK - I hear your pain.

   (((Lise)))   yes, I understand. seasons

[Ami]

(((((((((((((Seasons)))))))))
You are in a really hard situation. I have been thinking lately that as "insecure" as I have gotten ,having an NM, I STILL am so glad that I am not an N.
It is better to be on the other end(little voice-LV) than an N.I know that you are hurting  badly,Seasons, but YOU have empathy and heart.It IS better. Being an N is a wasteland.
  Giving and receiving  love is what makes life worth s/thing. Other that that, what really is there ,in life, of value. That is what  it seems to me, anyway.
 I know that ALL the things I did to try to be happy(buying things, education, marriage, activities etc) left me empty. I think that you need God's love first, as a foundation , and then give and recieve human love.
                   You always give ME a lot of love,Seasons .   Ami

[Certain Hope]

Ok Here we go again!

N and I moved to a new city where we knew no one, 2000 miles away from family and friends.

At the campground we met a couple, rather ritzy in hindsight, who helped us out when the truck had to go in for new brakes. We spent the day at their place, had lunch and played trionimoes with their mentally challenged daughter. Then husband-half drove us back to the truck when it was ready. Very kind people. When N took the trip back for our cars and furniture, wife-half came and took me grocery shopping, then we had lunch..

N returned and I suggested going to see these people or having them over, when we were settled and he kept shrugging me off.  I ran into them at Xmas time that year and they were very cool. I believe I said something about N, but not knowing he was an N, it might have been that he was  an alcoholic and couldn’t spend time with anyone who didn’t drink---I really forget! (I just know he felt they were too ‘clean living’ for him.)

The neighbors on either side--a 6’ fence on the property lines. N could stand there an talk to them but I couldn’t.  I never got to know them and I was shunned if I called out a “Hi!” When one couple had a baby we  gave them a gift (N took it over) The thank was just to him.
I began to believe he was telling tall tales about me, like I was his maiden Aunt who was helping out with the business/books and wasn’t right in the head from a car accident--only G_d knows.

One of his customers, an elderly lady, bought a computer and wanted instructions. She told me this much later, after I had left him. He said he knew an instructor and she happened to live in the same house. She never knew we were a couple.

He buddied up with the guy across the street  and later I learned he had a wife in a wheelchair. I never saw her outside. I went there once to retrieve a key to our house and a remote for the alarm system and she wouldn’t even talk to me.

It hindsight this is extremely insulting

Izzy

 

Iz, I don't know what to say... that is really bizarre. I cannot even guess what he was thinking at the time, or what his reasoning was...

but surely these folks' reactions had nothing to do with you. There's just no tellin... except I bet the woman whose husband he buddied up with (the one in the wheelchair who wouldn't talk to you) was thoroughly disgusted with him and - what? Somehow blamed you?
Who knows! He surely did a number on you, though... that old isolation technique which cuts you off from anyone who might be supportive.
((((((Izzy))))))

Carolyn

[Hopalong]

Izzy beside fence:

Hi! I'm over here and I can't see you, but I'd like to say hello! Come on around the fence, would you???

You know, Izz, this reminds me of what happened at work the other day. When I burst out a couple sobs at my desk, I know the 2 coworkers in the other room heard it. My boss made a beeline in there, and I'm sure he put his Nspin on it. No doubt subtly putting me down while sounding "concerned".

I've been wondering whether I should ask one of them what he said, but figure it's more politic not to. If they're wired to recognize an N, they'll eventually figure it out themselves. If they're not, then as we've all experienced, it may be a waste of time or make me look bad, if I bring it up.

I think the best thing is for me to keep my head up and treat everyone courteously and just let it go.

Izz, I have a feeling that you would be very good at voodoo. Shall we do a voodoo Ndoll? Hmm, what could we do with him.

Sit him upside down in a chair with scotch tape over his mouth and let him know exactly what we think of him.
Prop him up on the sidewalk with a sandwich board that says, WONDERFUL WOMAN INDOORS. NARCISSIST JERK HERE.

heh heh
Hops

[Certain Hope]

lol... (((((((((((Hops)))))))))))   ((((((((((((((Izzy)))))))))))   you two made me giggle... thanks!


And Hops... ugh. I have a similar scenario with a co-worker who last known remark about me to other co-workers was to tell them that I get "over-anxious".  Patronizing is her middle name. Now when they come to tell me what she's said, I just shake my head and say, I don't even wanna know. They're all wise to her.

Love,
Carolyn

[hardtotrust]

I completely agree with the former posts that say that you can't win. I have been fighting this battle since I was a kid (and didn't even know what the fight was about) and always lost.

If you are a believer, then don't get in the way of God's justice. Forgive and let Him carry out it.

But if you want to try something, I can say one thing you CAN’T do. NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tell the whole truth about the narcissist.

Nobody will believe you. That by itself is a defense for the narcissist. It is too much craziness. You wouldn't believe it if you weren't there.

I had a narcissistic/borderline girlfriend. She was my best friend during college. EVERYBODY who knew her (including myself) would tell you how religious, funny, considerate, honest, lovely etc she was. When we began our relationship I thought I had won the lottery. During the following months, between her attempts (?) of suicide, I would try to conciliate two images in my brain: the one of the angelic and beautiful classmate and the devil I had met. BTW, she always accused me of being aggressive (in the middle of her affairs, lies etc).

If I couldn't believe who she was behind the facade, who would?

I remember when I read “A child called it”. There was a moment when I threw the book away and said “Impossible! Nobody would do it!”. Immediately I understood why so many people weren't capable of connecting with my experiences and tried to minimize my feelings.

If you want to try to break the facade, the inverted picture of victim/aggressor, you may try a very simple step.

You say only a simple (but powerful) truth (a fact, never an opinion, judgment etc) a time. And you state that calmly, never making any accusation.

In the same way the N planted seeds of lies and doubts in the minds of everyone, you are going to try to plant a seed of truth.

If you have to stick to a single truth, do it. No matter how long it takes.

A friend of mine always joked that I must be the crazy one, not my girlfriends. If I were in her place I would have thought that as well. One day, I sat down and said, “Well, you say I'm the crazy one, let me tell just one, among hundreds of things that I hear, and this one is far from the worst. What would you think if your husband, after you helped him all day long to buy gifts and other things, when you arrived home, told you “I am just going to have a quick one with the neighbor, bye”, with a smile in his lips? And after that, if you complained, you had to hear that “you don’t have a sense of humor”? And if you still desperately complained, you were told to go away, because “it was impossible to talk to you like that”? What would you feel?”

That changed everything. But she wasn’t under the spell of the narcissist, so you better be more careful yet and more subtle.

But remember, you aren't going to change the narcissist. All you may achieve is to crack his facade. Nothing more.