Empathy - Interesting Abstract

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,


On the relative preponderance of empathic sorrow and its relation to commonsense morality

Edward B. Royzman, , a and Rahul


Abstract

Empathy is a nominally neutral term: in principle, the affective tone of empathic concern may be either negative (insofar as the relevant experience is that of apprehending and sharing in another's aversive state) or positive (i.e., apprehending and sharing in another's joy). Yet, we propose (Section 1) that, contrary to this standard conception of empathy as a potentially bivalent, generalized disposition towards emotional perspective-taking, in actuality, negative empathic responses, as a rule, (a) are more common, (b) are more differentiated, and (c) span a broader range of human relationships than their positive counterparts. Furthermore, we suggest that, barring certain types of privileged relationships, a failure to be empathetically aroused by another's good fortune is subject to far less severe (if any) social disapproval than the failure to share in another's aversive state. In Section 2, we posit that the negativity bias evident in the nature of our empathic concern may well be at the base of the negative–positive asymmetry found in the structure of commonsense morality, particularly as it expresses itself in the view that the furtherance of another's good has a greater moral claim on us in its negative form (e.g., the relief of suffering) than in its positive form (the promotion of “enjoyment”). We conclude by asking whether this moral (and the underlying empathic) asymmetry warrants our normative concern and we suggest that there are at least two reasons to think otherwise.

tt

[Certain Hope]

I see, tt!

What do you think of this:

If fear is one possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy (or being able to sustain empathy) for another in an aversive state...

and if that fear is based on a deep reluctance to imagine self in a similar aversive state...

is that not basically a simple matter of selfishness?

And if envy is on 1 possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy for another in a joyful state...

and if that envy is based on a deep bitterness re: one's own lack...

is that not springing from the same well of selfishness?

Thanks!

Carolyn

[Ami]

Carolyn,
  Could you please explain that in simpler words, if you could. Thanks so much.        Ami

[Certain Hope]

Ami,

I'd like to wait till after tt has had a chance, if she wants, to bounce it around a bit.

Thanks!

Carolyn

[Ami]

That would be fine, Carolyn. Thanks.                                                               

[gratitude28]

Carolyn and tt,
Yes, this makes sense (and thanks, Carolyn for putting it in a bit simpler terms... my head was swimming trying to get around the original, tt. I can read all kinds of junk into Literature, but gimme facts, and I am clueless - lol)...
Jealousy of good, fear of bad... lack of empathy. I think that is just about right.
I can see it in my mother (and father too) - if someone dies, they feel little but gladness it isn't them... if something good happens to someone, it is because of luck, or they wouldn't want it anyways (sour grapes). It is sick and unbelievable to watch. It is definitely a mark of pure self-centeredness.
I am so glad I do feel for others. I thank God that I have this ability.
Love, Beth

[dandylife]

What I am getting out of this abstract is:

1) The world's morality meter looks at empathy towards another's sorrow as "better" than enjoyment of others' gains.

2) Therefore, the idea that empathy occurs more often toward negative happenings is constantly reinforced (by society).

What I want to know is more on their concluding sentence, "We conclude by asking whether this moral (and the underlying empathic) asymmetry warrants our normative concern and we suggest that there are at least two reasons to think otherwise."

What are the 2 reasons?
Dandylife

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,


Hi everyone,

Yeah,, I found the wording of the article rather unwieldy, but on first read I knew I had been presented with something worth pondering.  And Carolyn, I'm still pondering.  The abstract without the rest of their story pretty much leaves curious souls like you and I with a lot of questions that start with, But...........what about this and what about that?

If fear is one possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy (or being able to sustain empathy) for another in an aversive state...

and if that fear is based on a deep reluctance to imagine self in a similar aversive state...

is that not basically a simple matter of selfishness?

And if envy is on 1 possible cause of a lack of feeling empathy for another in a joyful state...

and if that envy is based on a deep bitterness re: one's own lack...

is that not springing from the same well of selfishness?

Beth, I've often wondered why so much of the behind the scenes conversation among  my mother's FOO centered around the failures, deaths, disasters of the people they knew.  I don't remember much in the way of behind the scenes rejoicing at anyone's good fortune.   

Dandy, I think you did a good job picking the juicy parts from the article. I too am curious about that last sentence.  I would like to read the full article.  Which brings me to ask, do you purchase or subscribe to any of the online  journals on psychology?  Does any one here?   Are there any recommendations?

I think the article's intrigue for me is that it  broadens  my understanding of what constitutes wholesome empathy from the perspective of psychology.  Just to understand (well kinda) that empathy is not a fixed, static part of my nature and to learn that it operates on a continium of sorts (negative being when misfortune happen to another and that I can feel and share their misfortune as if I were standing in their shoes.  Then when someone experiences wonderfully, uplifting, joyous times, I can celebrate with them without feeling envy, resentment, and that whole string of why not  me, me, me centered emotions.

That it can and does fluctuate is liberating.  It's some of the best news I've received to tell you the truth.  I can't tell you the times I've rejoiced silently when someone I knew (and sometimes didn't know) experienced wonderful success.  Where I came from, that kind of thing was never given expression.  Now according to this article, I was experiencing empathy.  I like that.  I really do!

To summarize what I think about the article up to now...I think it makes the point that we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing  and in the joy of those who are glad.  Universal practice of that one principle would most likely be a death blow to narcissism.

tt

[Hopalong]

we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing  and in the joy of those who are glad.

Yup.

TT...thank you. I notice most Ns don't light up at another's joy.

Hops

[Certain Hope]

we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing  and in the joy of those who are glad.

Yup.

TT...thank you. I notice most Ns don't light up at another's joy.

Hops

That is a fact!!

N couldn't care less when someone else is rejoicing... in fact, it usually sends her into a funk... or worse.

tt, still pondering here, too, but I think we're all saying basically the same things.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S.  I have often been tempted to join or pay the fee or whatever is required to read "the rest of the story" on some of these abstracts which turn up as google search results. They are really tantalizing!

[Leah]

... we would do well to take part in the grief of those who are sorrowing  and in the joy of those who are glad.

I agree, as that is a healthy balance to BE ... with maturity, as an authenitic whole person.


Whereas,

Narcissistic Envy .... cannot rejoice with someone's gladness.  They have to vilify and render void asap.

Their immediate task is to wipe the smile off one's face.


Leah x

[teartracks]

Hi everyone,

Do you agree with the following quote from the abstract?  If so, why do you suppose the scale tips the way it does toward what they call negative empathy?  Why does distributing/applying negative empathy seem more appropriate and acceptable than distributing/applying positive empathy?  Is it because we were taught to do it that way or  something more illusive?

sin actuality, negative empathic responses, as a rule, (a) are more common, (b) are more differentiated, and (c) span a broader range of human relationships than their positive counterparts. Furthermore, we suggest that, barring certain types of privileged relationships, a failure to be empathetically aroused by another's good fortune is subject to far less severe (if any) social disapproval than the failure to share in another's aversive state.

tt

[Leah]

Dear TT,

I have just read and resonate, as for years now, I have asked the very same question.

Furthermore, we suggest that, barring certain types of privileged relationships, a failure to be empathetically aroused by another's good fortune is subject to far less severe (if any) social disapproval than the failure to share in another's aversive state.

Could you please be so kind as to post up the link to the abstract as I am genuinely interested in acquiring the full account/article.

Grateful thanks,

Leah x

[Hopalong]

I think there's a lot of severe training that comes from Puritan repressive roots.
That training forbade laughter, dancing, noise.
For women particularly, but consider the humorless world of the Puritans, any strict sect.

Sober.
Pious.
Dutiful.
Suffering.
Gray.
Repressed.

Those were the names of the game.

If you got loud or tossed your hair you were "wanton".

I think the reluctance to celebrate, to sizzle with happiness, is a fear of lewdness, drunkenness, almost.

There's something about the "national" or "Western" personality that gets happiness confused with irresponsibility, sloth, immoral licensciousness, well, SEX.

Put me in the stocks, dunk me for a witch, pass me a burka. No exuberance will be tolerated.

But if you're miserable, I'll come over and sit by you.

(I think it's good to have empathy for sorrow. Vital. But it's good to celebrate too.)

Hops

[Leah]

Dear Hops,

I resonate with your posting.

I am sure that there are countless other people in the same boat as myself, in so much as ....

I actually have received, and sometimes do, snide nasty remarks for being a person with an inner Joy and deep Contentment.

I was shocked by one person's assumption.    This is in REAL life.

My counsellor explained the reason why people do this -- which lifted a blanket of oppression off my shoulders.

Q.  Who owned the blanket ?   Any why place it on me ?   Or any another person ?

Interesting, sad, but ever so true.

Love, Leah