Can Narcissists really love their children??????

[gratitude28]

tjr and Carolyn,
I think you are right on the button about 'love' being expressed after you leave. My mother says it so much now, but it is a way to close conversation and I know it has no meaning. Also, tjr, she adores her animals in a way she has never cared about a human. I often wonder how that can be??????? I felt so silly when I realized that as a young adult I was jealous of house pets... Now it just disgusts me. How can a person not love a child and then worship a pet???
Have to say I worship my Stinky Henry... but my kids are my life... I feel he is part of that... not the only object of my affection.
Dandy, I never had anything close to emotion from my mother - unless i was to call me a whore or selfish. I can remember rage emotions, but never a loving emotion.
Izzy... so sorry about your childhood. Yuck!
Love, Beth

[SilverLining]

tjr and Carolyn,
I think you are right on the button about 'love' being expressed after you leave. My mother says it so much now, but it is a way to close conversation and I know it has no meaning.

Thanks for the confirmation Beth and Carolyn.    For a lot of years I think I just assumed there was something wrong with me.  I'd hear the word love from my parents and it made me angry.   I hadn't figured out what was going on but I knew it didn't feel right.  It was one of the tools they used to "infantilize" their adult children and keep them as sources of n-ish supply.  Just one example, when I and my siblings were all in our 30's, my mother sent us each a childrens book, aimed at about a 3 year old level, telling how much she "loved her little children".    Of course we never heard such a thing when we actually were 3 years old.   I tried to tell myself these things were effects of age, but the pattern is more obvious now.

[gratitude28]

tjr,
My mother does this with my own daughter (her grandchild). She bought her a furby for a present once and said it talked just like my daughter (it has a babyish voice). My daughter has never talked like a baby. She also has gotten amazingly bad at remmbering things in sequence... she mixes events, people and times to suit her at the moment. I don't even correct her anymore. She definitely has a bizarre fantasy world going on in her head.
Have to say that's pretty weird to send you those books! Wow.
Love, Beth

[axa]

Can Narcissists really love their children? 


NO

Axa

[Anastasia]

....uh...I'm waiting for a good argument that says we are wrong.  Wonder if we will get one?

[gratitude28]

If you find the article 'And Now we are Six' (do a google search), it gives some positive insight to having a relationship with an N. I try to believe it, but I am not sure I can (or really do want to).
Love, Beth

[reallyME]

 
 
         
 
 


From AND NOW WE ARE SIX


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Traits:

amoral/conscienceless
authoritarian
care only about appearances
contemptuous
critical of others
cruel
disappointing gift-givers
don't recognize own feelings
envious and competitive
feel entitled
flirtatious or seductive
grandiose
hard to have a good time with
hate to live alone
hyper-sensitive to criticism
impulsive
lack sense of humor
naive
passive
pessimistic
religious
secretive
self-contradictory
stingy
strange work habits
unusual eating habits
weird sense of time
 
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Laura B. Formholtz
Administrator

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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 8
  Like a 6 yr old child
« Reply #1 on Today at 5:59pm »   

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Excerpted from: http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/six.html

"Six can, oh so often, be expansive and out-of-bounds, contrary, violent, hard...to live with."(p. 4)

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"Your typical Six-year-old is a paradoxical little person, and bipolarity is the name of the game. Whatever he does, he does the opposite just as readily. In fact, sometimes the choice of some certain object or course of action immediately triggers an overpowering need for its opposite." (p. 1, the first paragraph of the book) [Emphasis in original]
"Six's reversals are truly something to be reckoned with." (p. 2)
"I love you" rapidly changes to "I hate you." (p. 2, 6)
stubborn and can't make up mind (p. 2)

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"The child is now the center of his own universe." (p. 2, 15) [Emphasis in original]
delighted by any silly thing that calls attention to himself; may do silly, show-offy things to call attention to himself when he feels neglected or shut out (pp. 71-72)

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arrogant (p. 7)
self-important ("extremely aware of the importance of being Six") (p. 22)
demands rather than asks (twice on p. 6, 16)
thinks own way is always right (p. 7)
once started, will stick to a course of bad behavior or bad judgment regardless of the inevitability of being punished for it (p. 7)
asks to be flattered and praised as "good," even ("rather sadly and touchingly") following his worst behavior (p. 6)

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can't accept criticism (p. 7)
feelings are hurt over very small criticisms, comments, failures (p. 6)
"He is so extremely anxious to do well, to be the best, to be loved and praised, that any failure is very hard for him." (p. 6)

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wants to win every time (p. 4, 21, 45)
poor sport, can't stand to lose (p. 7, 16)
argumentative and quarrelsome (p. 21)
defiant, pert, fresh, snippy (p. 6, 17)
competitive, combative (p. 20)
belligerent, verbally and physically aggressive (p. 21)
threatens, calls names, gets physically violent (p. 21)
violent temper tantrums may require physical restraint because of striking out (p. 29)
jealous, envious (p. 7, 21)

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to make sure of winning, will cheat or make up own rules (pp. 21-22, 45)
complains that others are cheating and not following the rules (p. 45)
some are very cruel to younger children (p. 22)
does not always tell the truth (p. 16)
will not admit to wrongdoing (p. 41) [Note: A technique is given for getting the facts out of kids that also works with narcissists: instead of asking if they did it, ask how they did it.]
goodness means the things explicitly required or allowed by parents or other authority figures; badness means the things explicitly disapproved of or forbidden (p. 66)

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little forgiveness (p. 22)
very critical of others' conduct (p. 22)
expects friendships to be resumed immediately following tremendous complaint and conflict (p. 22)

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wants to boss (p. 21)
"Many children think their father knows everything -- even what goes on at home while he is at work."(p. 16)
thinks his teacher knows the best and only right way of doing things; may not know which rules to follow when school rules differ from home rules (p. 18)

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"highly undifferentiated -- everything is everywhere" (p. 7)
can't always tell the difference between "yours" and "mine," and so often steals (pp. 39-41)

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"random and unconstructive expenditure of energy" (p. 31)
more interested in merely handling or using tools than in what is accomplished with them (pp. 53-54)
less interested in actual final products than in whatever he may be doing at the moment(p. 56)

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"Sixes love to dress up and pretend they are somebody else...." (p. 49)
 

 
         
 
 

[dandylife]

This is from Dr. Grossman's website - article "Voicelessness: Narcissism"

"Can such people be helped? Sometimes. The critical factor is whether they ultimately acknowledge their core problem: that as a child they felt neither seen nor heard (and/or their self was fragile as a result of trauma, genetic predisposition, etc.), and they unconsciously employed self-building strategies to survive. Acknowledging this truth takes much courage, for they must face their underlying lack of self-esteem, their exceptional vulnerability,  and significantly, the damage they have caused others.   Then comes the long and painstaking work of building (or resurrecting) a genuine, non-defensive self in the context of an empathic and caring therapy relationship."

In the midst of their disorder, I doubt that a genuine "love" - the generally accepted definition of love - a true and deep concern and caring for another's wellbeing - is possible.

Dr. Grossman does seem to believe they can be helped with proper therapy to lead a better life.

Dandylife

[gratitude28]

Thanks for posting the parts of that article, Laura. I know there is a section, too, which talks about the ability to have a relationship with an N parent.
Lollie, I think you are right on. I believe that my mother believes she loves, but she has no concept of the emotion. It is like me pretending I know what it feels like to be a super nova.
Love, Beth

[Anastasia]

ReallyME, thanks for posting all that.  I think that sums it up for Nmommy on my end.  Again, really helpful and thanks!!!

[sunblue]

I do not believe Ns are capable of feeling or demonstrating what most consider to be "healthy" love.  An N's children are merely extensions of themselves...they are not individual human beings.  It is also interesting to see all these similar experiences which I also share.  In my case, my Nmom would tell everyone and anyone that she is a loving, wonderful mother and that her kids are "everything" to her.  Not really true.  My Nmom was very good at providing the daily, necessary things in life---food, shelter, presents at Christmas and birthdays, etc.  But most people realize that is just the beginning of what a mother should be.  Nmoms, as my mom was and is, is incapable of being a real mom....She can't supply any of the encouragement, support, empathy, interest or concern that healthy moms do.  The world revolves on its axis around her.

So while she may think she has been a "perfect" mother, it is impossible for her to acknowledge or admit that she has been far less than that because her definition of motherhood is so extremely limited.  After all, the only ones who are in a position to judge whether or not someone has been a good parent or not, is the children of that parent.

Also, as Dr. Grossman said, while it's "possible" for Ns to improve, it takes an ENORMOUS commitment and willingness to face their demons.  Any therapist will tell you therapy rarely works with true Ns because their disorder keeps them from looking at themselves, acknowleding their faults and the damage they have caused.  They simply refuse to look in the mirror.

My own Nmom recently made a comment that she firmly believes parents are to blame for absolutely NOTHING that goes wrong in a child's life.  However, she more than willingly takes credit for anything GOOD that happens in that child's life.  In fact, she will tell everyone she is the reason for it.

So yes, many commonalities in Nparents.

The other comment I want to make is this.  While an Nparent is incapable of truly loving their children, the sad truth is that families that enable this behavior because the other parent is a co-dependent, results in the child not receiving love from either parent.  The co-dependent dotes exclusively on the N and therefore cannot develop a healthy, loving relationship with the children....So essentially, the child is left with no parent....

[Hopalong]

Yikes, Sunblue.
This hit hard:

While an Nparent is incapable of truly loving their children, the sad truth is that families that enable this behavior because the other parent is a co-dependent, results in the child not receiving love from either parent.  The co-dependent dotes exclusively on the N and therefore cannot develop a healthy, loving relationship with the children....So essentially, the child is left with no parent....

Almost made me reassess whether my father (codependent for sure) loved me. But, I believe he did. He never forcefully stood up for me nor confronted my mother about anything. But I could tell in his voice and touch that he loved me. Best he knew how.

Sad thought, above...

Hops

[Anastasia]

Between my classic Nmother and insecure/jealous bi-polar stepfather (and God only knows where my biological father was during my childhood), I had NO real parenting in the traditional sense of a mother and father who cared or encouraged me.  I have a feeling there are many of us out here like that. 
The lack of caring was a huge source of pain to me for years when I was young...then, I am thinking around 27, I disconnected from the pain slowly and surely until...I just didn't care anymore about my lack of caring parents anymore.  But I remember being very deeply hurt over their behavior towards me for years, and, especially, their constant daily insults, put-downs, belittling, etc.
It took an enormous amount of work on myself to stop the tapes of what a "bad" person I was according to my Nmother.  My early 20's were a living hell in my mind as I could hear her voice inside my head all the time.  And she nagged, bitched and picked at me 24/7 my whole life.
Maturity heals all wounds, I guess.  Now whatever she says about me just rooooolllllls off my back, because I could care less now.  I KNOW who I am.  This MUST be a tremendous loss of power for her.  Ooopsie...guess she ultimately lost the game. 

[sunblue]

Hi Hops:

Sorry if my comment made you or anyone upset.  I seriously didn't intend that.  I was only speaking from my own experience.  From my perspective, I don't believe that co-dependents are incapable of caring about and loving their children.  Quite the opposite.  Unfortunately, all the love and care they have is usually reserved exclusively for the Nspouse.  In his way, I believe my co-d dad believes he loves his kids, and maybe on some level he does.  But in my mind, it's not a healthy or even helpful kind of love when the co-D parent won't or can't spend time with you, take an interest in your life, support you, stand up for you or protect you (from the other Nparent). 

For instance, I have repeatedly over the years asked my dad to do things with me...just little activities so we could spend time together.  But he won't do it....he won't do anything that does not involve my Nmom and where my Nmom can be the center of attention.  He virtually will ignore me or what I say if she is in the room.  I remember once when I was 12 or so, there was this father-daughter type event at school.  Everyone I knew were bringing their dads.  It was the type of thing where the daughter prepares a simple dish at home and then brings it to the school event to serve her dad, followed by a little dance.  Many of the girls are given flowers by the dad.....Well, I wanted to go....I asked but my dad basically said he had no interest in going (of course not!  my mother wouldn't be in attendance)....Eventually he was guilted into it by family members....but it was obvious through the whole evening he didn't want to be there.  I'll always remember that.

But that is just typical.....My dad has never initiated or participated in a serious conversation that had to do with me.  He never offered advice about anything....never said he was proud of me.....never acknowledged me or my interests really in any way.  Once my mom was in the hospital for a routine surgery.  I was young and had a slight accident while roller skating....I was bleeding and my knees were skinned pretty bad and I was a little scared. I just remember my dad screaming at me for falling saying "How could you do that when your mother is in the hospital?"  Again, his focus was always on the N in the family.

Alas, that is all I meant...perhaps other dads in similar situations acted differently.  I think it also has a lot to do with the level of co-dependency....Let's face it, some Ns are more narcissistic than others, just as some co-dependents are more co-dependent than others.  In my family, extremes ruled.....nothing moderate about it.

Oh well.....I think sometimes if you had at least one parent who noticed you or truly took an interest in you, that offsets the total neglect from the Nparent...I hope that's the case with you Hops...Again, didn't mean to trigger anyone...

Take special care

[Hopalong]

Aww, Sun...that wasn't a complaint.
I am always glad when someone writes something that jerks me into fuller awareness.

My Dad was a milder Co-D than yours...but your description made me face more honestly that he really was underprotective of me. I adored him so much that I think it would have been too painful for me to see him as not a strong protective Dad (which I really needed, come to think of it). He was beyond gentle and truly not capable of seeing what was wrong with my Mom (it took me decades and a shrink...he didn't have access to that knowledge). But I do know he loved me.

Still, your post kind of shocked me into realizing how very alone I felt. Bully brother, emotionally absent but invasive mother, isolation and abuse at school. I really did feel I had nowhere to turn and noone to turn to. So I think your post startled me into a moment of greater compassion for my little child self.

So, thank you! (Even if I had been "triggered", which I don't see this as...I always figure being triggered by something is the responsibility of the triggee...learning opportunity, really.)

love,
Hops