Being Envied

[Gabben]

This is from the book Cinderella And Her Sisters

Last night I read the first chapter Being Envied. It was an amazing relief to read about the pains I have struggled with with N saint, to have those pains defined and to see that I am good and not as bad as I thought I was or as crazy as I thought I was. Also, I was able to see that I fear being envied or even perhaps I equate being envied with love since I was envied by my mother, does that make sense?

Does anyone else have a envy story?

(BTW: Laura I read your Cinderella Thread -- thank you)

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To be the object of envy is a terrible experience. We
Know that from our earliest reading. Whether it comes
in the form of the scheming plots of Snow White's stepmother
to kill the beautiful child, or the sadistic demands
of Cinderella's sisters, designed to humiliate her, or the
determination of the two sisters in the fairy tale "One-
Eye" to take all the food for themselves and leave their
long-suffering sister to starve, envy makes the misery of
others its devoted aim.

One who is envied feels the attack of envy as nullification
of her own subjective reality. She is turned into an
object by her envier, whether by praise or scorn. Her
reality as a person is obliterated. Her hurt, her anger, or
her shock in response to envious assault seems not to
matter at all to the envier. Any facts of her personal
history are utterly discounted. That Cinderella, for example,
is also the much-loved daughter of a shared father, or
that she has suffered the loss of her beloved mother,
arouses no sympathy in the envious sisters. Or, to take an
example from analytic practice, when a woman, envied
by her sister, protests that she too has problems to
overcome and that she has worked hard to achieve the
good position that is now the target of her sibling's envy,
she is met only by the stony face of her envious sister.2
These facts in her own history make no dent in her
sister's envy; they are simply not taken in. The envied
one no longer exists as a valid subject. She is changed
into a thing, a mere object of envy. She exists only with
reference to the envier's idealization and persecution,
Typical defenses against the pain that comes with envying.

[Gabben]

Chapter Being Envied continued:

In idealization, the envier inflates the envied into one
"too good to be true," one so far beyond the envier, and
in fact all human proportions, that the envier need not
feel maliciously competitive. The envied one is turned
into a demigod and coerced into accepting that role. In
persecution, the same defense mechanism operates, only
at the opposite end of the scale. Now the envied one is
seen as completely bad and as aiming above all else to
make the envier's life miserable. The envier then need
not deal with her own envying because it is projected
onto the envied one, who can then be blamed for it. The
cause of envy lies not in oneself but in the envied one;
accusation substitutes for self-examination. In both idealization
and persecution, the envied one is turned into an
abstract fiction-hero or villain-and robbed of concrete
identity.
Envy generalizes. It blanks out persons in favor of
qualities, and even those are not therapeutical qualities
possessed by individual persons but part of a generalized
ideal denied the envier by the mere fact of possession by
the envied. Here begins that terrible mixture of pain and
pleasure which envy always brings with it. The envier
may take some pleasure in accounting, finally, for the
misery felt in his or her lack of something. But there is
great pain, too, not only the original anguish, but a new
one. For the immediate effect of turning someone else
into an abstraction is to do the same to oneself. One has
moved from one's own special case into the great gulf of
generalization, where there are no persons but only great
frightening qualities.

[Gabben]

More:

From the side of the envied one, to be envied is a
threatening experience. One feels canceled, no longer
validated by reference to one's own particular identity,
one's own motives or feelings. All that matters now is the
perception of the envier who sees the envied one only in
terms of the role he or she plays in the envier's personality.
The envying sister in the case example above complained
that if her sister did not always look so nice and do so well,
then she would feel better about her own self and not feel
so inferior. In the face of this attitude the envied one feels
cut off at her roots, severed from personal connection to
the resources of her own being.
Her being fully alive and growing is taken as an intentional
doing against her sister. She feels negated in
herself and co-opted into another's scheme of things. She
is a country invaded and annexed by an enemy, seen now
only in terms of service to this hostile neighbor who
appropriates both one's past and future by invalidating
one's autonomous existence in the present. The envied
one' really cares about relationship to the envier and is
trying somehow to reclaim it, but she inevitably must
fail. The envied one feels trapped behind thick glass
where she can see the other person and be seen but what
she says cannot reach through the thick wall of projection
the envier has thrown up against her. In this setting, we
all become things, mere objects.

[Ami]

My M was very envious of me b/c she saw me as having the qualities of  her sister .She was ver jealous of her sister, always( and still is).She used to call me her sisters name.
 So, my M "got back" at her sister, finally, by hurting me.She can see it,now.
However, I am left with the fears of"shining" with my own power.
In sime ways ,my M wanted me to look "good" for her, but in other ways, she tried to keep me down. I was always trying to balance doing well with a fear of her hurting me FOR doing well---bleh.
  It is a great topic, Lise.          Love   Ami

[Gabben]

However, I am left with the fears of"shining" with my own power.
In sime ways ,my M wanted me to look "good" for her, but in other ways, she tried to keep me down. I was always trying to balance doing well with a fear of her hurting me FOR doing well---bleh.

Exactly. I have cycled back into the wound of my mom's wrath and envy. The fear there is intense, primal because my mom was envious of me when I was a baby.

Perhaps when I feel the threat of being envied I run or diminish myself because the pain of being envied is so debilitating:


In personal terms, the envied experiences transmutation
from subject into object as being utterly cast adrift. It
is as if one has become a garbage can into which all the
tainted stuff of the envier can be dumped. The envied
one is reduced to the envier's projections. Human relationship
with the envier is blocked, any bond of sympathy
or understanding severed.

This above describes the way I felt as a very small child towards my mom.

Rachel (N saint) pushed these buttons which have been so healing for me to see and really peel the deep layers back of this kind of subtle abuse from a mother to her baby.

N saints envy has aroused the buried distress, anguish and fears of being eliminated from life.

The good news is that N saint and my mom could squish my potential for using my gifts in this world but they could not take my gifts away.

Gab

[papillon]

Hi Gabben,

this is an extremely interesting topic and I hope you don't mind me sharing my own personal understanding of envy.

I think we're talking straight envy here? yes?

My personal understanding regarding the envied/envier dance is that it's an altogether invidious relationship, which, if encountered, either personally/internally in me  or in another, it is best kept solidly boundaried and contained till a means of dealing with it effectively has been found.

Jealousy I have somewhat more tolerance for and treat differently, because from my experience it appears to contain a subtle difference, which seems to be confirmed from the latin roots.

Where both words ,envy and jealousy, stem from invidia (invidious) - jealousy also stems from zelus (zealous).

It appears to me that some jealousy is sometimes perhaps understandable, and posssibly even socially,religiously acceptable (especially for Jews and Christians) , whereas I've never ever been able to find an acceptable arena for envy. In myself or others.

My understanding is that if I'm motivated by envy I just want the other person to lose, topple, fail, be hated, isolated and miserable or even die. It doesn't necessarily even equate that I'll get what they had, or what I envied about them. I'll just enjoy seeing them not have it. It's essence is purely destructive and malicious and invidious.

Jealousy on the other hand can lead to this, but it also contains and element of holding/wanting. Even protecting. I'm not religious at all but I've read the bible a few times and the Christian's and Jew's God actually commands them to jealously guard their hearts. That translates to zealously. It means hold onto tightly.  There are some other encouragements in there to be jealous over their holy things, thoughts etc. I'm fine with that. I'm even fine with people's jealousies if they think or find their partners are being unfaithful. I can understand jealousy arising in their lives, with the overwhelming desire to have and to hold etc. Although if I'm asked what to do I'll  say "What's your real issue here?" Self-esteem maybe? and then,  "What are you going to do about it?"

Envy, I understand is a solely invidious, malicious, destructive and desirous to see another person lose something out of sheer malice and spite.

Jealousy may not contain this element of invidiousness at all. It may stem from not wanting to lose something, fear, insecurity, being afraid of losing someone who is a huge part of your life. It may also stem from wanting to have something or someone that/who is a huge part of another peron's life. Jealousy connotes an attempt to take or keep for one's self, zealously.

Another of my understandings is that malice can stem from both but always stems from envy.

Thought I'd throw this in and see where it leads.

Thanks,

Papillon
 

[Gabben]

Hi Papillon,

It was enjoyable to read your post. The subject of envy fascinates me too.


"Jealousy on the other hand can lead to this, but it also contains and element of holding/wanting. Even protecting. I'm not religious at all but I've read the bible a few times and the Christian's and Jew's God actually commands them to jealously guard their hearts."


This was good to read  (I'm Catholic).

As you articulated well there is a difference between jealously and envy. I too regard jealously as an more acceptable emotion, more about protection vs envy where all malice comes from. I have found that the envier will arouse jealousy in the envied.

I'd think that anyone reading up on the subject of envy had better have a strong heart and mind. Envy is one sin or emotion that which we tend or want to hide from ourselves more than any other. That idea in itself is worth a long discussion; why do we feel so much shame about the emotion of envy or even worse why do we feel intense shame when we act out of envy and animosity?

I have been on both sides, I have been an envier (never really acting out though) and most recently I have been the envied. 

This book really helped me to see that I was indeed the envied. Mostly because I have no desire nor have I ever wanted to outdo, oust, ruin, destroy or eliminate the woman who hates and envies me so much. As a matter of fact I used to really care about her and like her. I used to watch her son and help her with her ministry.

At some point she went from warm to lukewarm with me and then eventually she went cold. It was all so confusing for me, I thought it was my fault.

It has taken me more than 6 months to come to the point where I am now. For so long I could not figure out why she would envy me. I had nothing. But my therapist helped me see that my strength was my ability to stand on my own two feet, happily.

I was good in that I would make sacrafices of time for charity and I never told anyone except N saint because she was my spiritual director. Looking back it all became so clear to me, she was envious of me for my average goodness and my God given talents which she would deny me use of or deny that I had.


For me I just pray for her and try to imagine the day when or if we ever have to meet through a parish activity and I can give her a hug and or try to extend an olive branch. The problem I fear is that will just cause her to become more envious.....sad.

Thanks for input. Please feel free to write more. You do not have to relate to my posts here. I enjoy hearing your thoughts on this subject.

BTW- I know someone who also rescued a labordoodle -- white curly hair? They are adorable dogs!

Gab

[Certain Hope]

Excellent information, Lise... thank you so much!

These two remarks, especially, have hit the spot:

One feels canceled, no longer
validated by reference to one's own particular identity,
one's own motives or feelings.

and

One who is envied feels the attack of envy as nullification
of her own subjective reality. She is turned into an
object by her envier, whether by praise or scorn. Her
reality as a person is obliterated.

Explains so very much.

Hugs,
Carolyn

[papillon]

Hi Gabben,

Back to being envied. I view envy as very childish, narcissistic and it shouts to me of some element of of arrested/perverse development. I suppose I've been subjected to attempts to subject me to envy, even recently, but I simply refuse to play... once I recognise it of course. I'm quite boundaried now (didn't used to be) and as a result envy can't really annihilate or debilitate me unless I allow it. I treat it as an emotional tantrum almost. I have zero tolerance for anything that says I'm not entitled to my own rightful entitlements, or wishes me loss.

The envier may attempt to attack my dignity or reputation - oh well, so what. I have no control over another. But I'm becoming more confident that no-one can annihilate me when/if I know who I am, what I'm about and what I stand for.

For me being envied oddly came from people I was close to - for some reason. It didn't happen often, but when it did it really hurt. I couldn't understand it at all - w-h-a-t-s-o-e-v-e-r!!  Acquaintances never seemed to wish me ill-fortune. Some of my friends also never seemed to wish me ill-fortune, but it was a recurring theme in my life that required addressing.  I knew that I certainly had experienced serious envy from people, and it was always and only from ones I loved or was very close to. That alone was very destructive, upsetting and confusing for me, and I think for them too. And I was doubly distressed because I don't do envy, didn't feel I deserved it, and I felt horribly victimized. These were different people at different times who I'd so often and easily put myself out for.

So, fortunately I addressed it. My friends would reassure me that it wasn't anything I was doing and that it was the other person's problem. That didn't help. Initially I believed them, it was so easy to.

Gabben - please keep in mind I'm only talking about my own unique journey and experience and what worked for me with envy.

Then at some point I read this and it's never left me since - this goes everywhere with me -

'You don't attract what you want, you attract what you are'.

That rocked my world. I felt it's underlying truth although I was repulsed to think that I was envious, when I thought I wasn't. It was all so totally scary, but I decided to spend some time on it anyway, if only to see where it led. 

Then I read that the envied and the envier are like equal opposites.  Like how the vicitims/supporters of N's are their equal opposites. I read and learned that by the envied playing out their vicitim part in the relationship they can actually attract or draw out envy from certain other people. That made sense to me only in one way -  I certainly felt opposite to the envier. Then there was also a quote I've never forgotten that said "Tell a starving man about the great meal you had last night and he'll grow to hate you." 

From there I looked at my boundaries, decided that even though I still didn't understand what it was about me attracting envy, whether my poor boundaries, my unconscious behaviours or attitudes that was attracting this, I decided I would accept that it was me.

I decided based on a scant theory to accept that I was somehow mutually responsible for the situation.

That one little thought revolutionised my little world - forever.

Because if I was somehow mutually responsible for the situation, then suddenly I embraced that I had power in the relationship and I could change it. Does that make sense? That one tiny thought alone was one of the biggest personal breakthroughs I'd ever had. I carry the principle with me and apply it daily as some might blood presure tablets. My life is so much less problemsome as a result.

It was in accepting that I was somehow just as responsible as the other party for any emotional mess that I found myself in, that I was then free to exercise my power and freedom and do something about it.  It was in realising this power to change things, that my freedom from being envied came. I realised I had been exercising my power already in those relationships anyway -  but not for my own benefit. I was exercising my power to be a vcitim. So I worked out what it was that I was unhappy about in the relationship, then I decided what I could do about it, with an almost 'damn the consequences, freedom or bust' attitude  -  yes, true. I found I had the power to bring about positive change for me, and no doubt it was better for the other party as well.

This is obviously a case of one man's medicine is another man's poison. What's right for me may only be right for me. But that's how I dealt and deal with being envied or most other emotional baggage situations that come along.  I don't know if any of this is of value in your situation but you're welcome to pick through it.

Thanks for the topic,
Papillon


edit in - me and typo's go back a long way

[Violet]

Maybe someone can give me some feedback or thoughts on this....

Is this envy? 
My mom had 6 kids, but we won't talk about "the baby" because that is a whole different story.  Three of the 5 (me and 2 of my brothers) were what you might call bright, we loved to read (something she hated), made the straight As, that sort of thing.  The other 2 (my sisters) hated to read, hated to think, hated school, and loved to shop, wear clothes, sew, and other stuff she liked (not bashing that stuff, cause I like it too).  We were always somehow pitted against one another (hey, we still are).  I always wondered why my mother discouraged my brothers and me from seeking higher education, since we were good in academics and she had a college degree.  I always thought it was because she did not want to spend any money on anyone but herself (we all understood this).  I pursued my own higher education, but neither of my brothers did.  I always felt like it was such a waste!!  They had (my older brother died last year) so much to offer the world.  My remaining brother has always wanted so much to go to college, and we have talked about it a lot.  I have tried and tried to encourage him, but he simply cannot believe it is for him.  I have hit a wall in thinking some of the same things about myself with respect to pursuing a Master's Degree, it is like something inside of me is convinced that I will be disloyal to mom if I do achieve it.  How sick is that?  I really think I might want to go forward with this and become a licensed counselor, but even stating it here makes me feel uncomfortable, like "who do you think you are?"

Anyway, I just never really thought about the topic of envy, it seems amazingly destructive.  Could this be the dynamic going on in my family scenario?  I do remember my mother always praised my achievements to others, while running me down, taunting me, and verbally scorning my achievements when we were alone.  Is that envy or just plain hatred?  I also remember I really wanted to play the piano and we had a piano at home.  She chose the violin for me, I did not want to play the violin and I hated it.  When I was by myself, I would pick out songs note by note on the piano until I had taught myself a song I liked, sort of like hunt and peck on the typewriter.  BTW, my mom was the only one in our household who played the piano...  Thanks for this thread, Gab

Violet

[Gabben]

Dear Papillion,


I'm reading and reflecting on your post, I am flooded with gratitude, your post is insightful to me.

 We attract what we are. It is like if we see some quality in someone else we can guarantee that what we are seeing is a reflection of ourself to one degree more or less.

This I have been well aware of especially in my dealings with the projection of N saint and my mom. I believe that N saint and myself are not that far apart. Perhaps I am just getting well by truthfully facing my wounds where N saint is still in denial, acting out the drama of her childhood N wounds, her projection is thicker and it triggered me into victim mode, does that make sense?

"I was exercising my power to be a victim."

Recently I have been thinking about my mom's envy of me when I was a baby. My drama or part with N saint was a way of acting out the untold drama or trauma of my childhood pain of being envied by my mom, or unwanted. It is a complicated pain one not easy for me to articulate but at the root are primal fears.

We become what are caregivers were either to others or to ourselves. My mom hated herself and was envious of her children. Therefore, there is a part of myself that hates myself and is terrified of being envied.

Recently I have been searching out my unconscious for any buried emotions of envy that I may have had towards my mother but I realized that I came across my buried envy when I was working with a Freudian psychiatrist. It was then that I dealt with my unfinished Oedipal complex and other buried envy I had towards my mom as a small child -- strong emotions and desires that had never been worked through until that time in my T work.

So this layer of my choice to be a victim is the little girl in me trying to tell her untold story of the eviscerating, which is an interesting choice of words to describe pain of my mom's envy toward me and how I choose to cope with that as a baby/toddler/child/teenager.

Finally now I see that my mom cannot destroy me, nor can she take my gifts, or goodness away or eliminate me from reality. I see that I have tried to destroy myself because of my primal survival fear and how my mom's envy terrified me and wounded me as a small child. There was a need to defend myself and the only way to defend myself was to eliminate myself to try to appease my mom's envy or protect myself from further pain I denied myself, does that make sense?

(Side Reflection)
{Eviscerate means to remove the entrails of; disembowel. My mother wanted to remove me from her womb I was unwanted by her while still in her womb.}

The more I see myself the more the disillusionment of my powerless evaporates the more I can reclaim my true self and my soul.


((((((((((Papillion)))))))))) you have some wonderful gifts, depth and insights. I hope you stick around and help me and others as well as continue down your own path of healing.

I tend to get very deep here on the board I mean no disrespect to others here but it is hard for everyone to relate. You seem to have a real grasp for this stuff. As well as it is important to face ourselves and not easy to do when others may quickly condemn us for sharing our own sickness or failings but if we are to heal and overcome then we must face the yucky sides of ourselves too.

[Gabben]

I have hit a wall in thinking some of the same things about myself with respect to pursuing a Master's Degree, it is like something inside of me is convinced that I will be disloyal to mom if I do achieve it.  How sick is that? 

Hi Violet,

There were some recent threads about the issue you raised. I think tt had a thread. I'm going to see where it is on the board and try to re-post it for you.

Yes, I can relate to fear of outdoing either mom or other siblings. Yes, I can relate to fear of provoking envy from others.

It is not that sick, it is quite a normal thing amongst the emotionally wounded.

Could this be the dynamic going on in my family scenario? 

Yes, one of many dynamics and it is wise for you to be seeing these patterns and asking these questions as well as I encourage you to keep exploring your family memories. Do you have a sibling that you can talk openly about your family dynamics with?

My mom pitted my brother, sister and myself against each other, one way that she used was to evoke envy amongst, guilt and fear were used  as well.

((((((Violet))))))

[Violet]

Thanks, Lise,
I appreciate the feedback.   AND the hug!!

Violet

[papillon]

Hi Gabben,

Thanks so much for your thread. These points are the chewy morsels I have so far extracted from the smorgasboard you have provided on 'being envied'.

"Envy generalizes."
"she always", "he never" sort of stuff I guess. Absolutes which invalidate another's uniqueness and individuality.


"accusation substitutes for self-examination".
Isn't this incredibly true and oh so brilliantly succinct. I love it. A complete gem of a truth in the simplest of nutshells. I'm going out now to get this tattooed under my eyelids so I will see it and remember it always. I totally believe this IS an absolute in interperonal relations.

That leads directly into the following -

The envier then need not deal with her own envying because it is projected onto the envied one, who can then be blamed for it. The cause of envy (then) lies not in oneself but in the envied one;

Envy is probably a really good thing to understand and recognize isn't it? Maybe should be taught in school along with anti-bullying programs. Maybe teach people how to realize if they're 're in that type of dance how to get out of it, or preferably refuse the invitation to dance.

I guess if being the envier is the problem we think we might have, then we need to get honest and find a healthy, empathetic, impartial sounding board. There are ways to learn deal with envy, like doing some self-examination and looking at our real self-image etc. Maybe if we take the time to learn the benefits of taking responsibility only for our own issues, and leave others to take responsibility for theirs the world would be a heck of a lot more uncomplicated. Maybe if we practice dropping the habit of our constant focus on others, drop the subjective accusations, allow other people their personal space to walk their own walk, enjoy their own journey, including their own joys and pitfalls. Maybe then we would uncomplicate our minds a whole lot, suddenly.

I guess this whole thread reminds me of how important it is to chill out, relax, look at the stars, do some physical work, walk often, live green, smile at children, realize it's okay to get a bit down at times, then go out and enjoy life anyway, focus on our own issues and dreams, and most importantly live and let live.

Thanks Gabben
Good stuff

Papillon

[sunblue]

I thought these posts were very interesting.....I guess I never really saw any downside for the person being envied because in my mind, if you're envied in others, that means you have a lot to be envied for.

I've always been in the position of envying others......for their success, their career, their looks, their friends, their families, being loved by others....all things I don't have....Consequently, their successes always seem to reinforce my failures and low sense of myself....I don't know  how NOT to envy others, those who have that which you don't have...

It's kind of similar to those lyrics in that old song, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with."  To turn it around, I guess it would be, "If you can't have what you want, learn to want what you have."  Accepting what you have and who you are at the moment should be enough, but it has never been for me.

My "healthy" brother once said to me that he had lower expectations out of life than I did, and that could be part of the reason for my depression and unhappiness.....I had a therapist who mentioned that as well....I know one of my big issues is constantly measuring myself against others...but unfortunately, I tend to measure myself against those few who are really successful, happy and have everything (seeimingly), rather than the average person.  I think "If it's possible for them, why isn't it for me?  Why do they get it and I don't?"  And of course, the answer, in my mind is always the same.....because I'm not good enough.  I don't measure up....Because I never measured up in the eyes of my N family, I feel I never measure up anywhere.....

So I can identity with the envy issues, just the other side of the coin.  Sometimes I think wouldn't it be nice if someone actually envied ME...if there was something good enough about me that someone else would envy.....I would think being envied would be a confidence booster.....