Author Topic: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)  (Read 5618 times)

Ami

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2008, 04:37:28 PM »
Bean,
 Another brilliant post!              Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

sunblue

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2008, 06:42:52 PM »
Gratitude:

I SOOOO appreciated your post!  I cannot tell you how much it reflects my life.  Perhaps we are twins separated from birth? :)  But I can so identify with the pain associated with all of this lack of self-worth.  And it DOES emanate from our Nparents or families.  Of course, it is our issue to struggle with and manage....but we are not born into this world with a huge deficit of self-esteem.  We learn that.

What's really heartbreaking is this issue touches every aspect of our lives----personal, professional, emotional, physical.  And it runs so very deep!  It's in our brain....the way we think, about ourselves, about others, about the others.  It guides our choices in life in everything from career to family to choice of life partner. 

I can now see how my Nmom's personality and behaviors toward me have affected my cognitive thinking and complete and total lack of self-worth.  As I've noted before, she and my co-D dad value only people who are extremely famous, powerful and wealthy.  No other values count.  As a consequence, when I have been job searching or now that I've accepted a job, I feel completely worthless....because I don't measure up....not to them, not to myself.  In turn, this sense of failure dictates how I perceive myself in every aspect of life.  I'm not worthy of friends or relationships or positive things in life.  I have been clinically depressed all my life and I believe much of it stems from this lack of value, lack of self esteem.

If someone were to ask me right now to describe in one word how I feel about myself, I would have to say FAILURE---total and complete.  I am nothing...feel like dirt...feel unworthy and can never measure up.

So I feel your pain...because it is mine also.  They say Ns are what they are because of a deeply hidden sense of their own lack of self-worth...but instead of insecurity, it manifests itself as grandiosity and superiority.....It's still hard to accept....

I so wish that like others I could feel good about myself, even a little.  But I measure myself against others who are only impossibly successful, a level I can and will never reach.  I am incapable of being happy with who and what I am at the moment.

It is the loser in me I guess....but this lack of value, lack of self-esteem is at the very core of the issues children or recipients of Ns are left with.  It is a life long war to battle....

Thank you for your post.....I am sorry you are feeling as you are...I understnad it...We must fight this as best we can...try to remind ourselves we are not worthless....that we have value..even though the Ns in our life never once acknowledged that fact.


Ami

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2008, 07:22:19 PM »
Were you the scapegoat of the family, Sun?                               Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

sunblue

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #33 on: March 16, 2008, 09:01:54 PM »
Hi Ami:

I'm not really sure how the term "scapegoat" is defined.  I will say I was the one who was ignored the most...I was the one who was put in the position of trying to keep the peace....I was the one who was always the most sensitive and felt the pain and pull of the Ns in my family---my mom and sister the most.  Because I also had an Nsister who treated me badly from a very young age on along with an Nmom, I think I felt the feelings of failure and unworthiness the most.  Attention always focused on my Nmom and Nsis.....my "baby" brother was the focus of my Nsis growing up and I tended to be invisible....I never caused trouble, always got good grades....but I was always depressed from a young age---just no one around to notice it.

So I do understand Gratitude's feelings...In fact, it is the core of my personal issues....This total lack of failure...perhaps that's why suicidal thoughts have never been too far....No value, no worthiness, no purpose in life.

Perhaps you can share with me your own definition of a scapegoat?  I've heard the term but I've never really seen it adequately explained.

By the way, I'm afraid I was out of the loop when news of your son came through on the board.  I only very recently read the posts of sympathy.  Please add mine to that list.  Perhaps more than some, I can understand what you are going through and what your son must have gone through.  My very heartfelt expression of sympathy go out to you Ami.  I pray you will reach out to others including the friends you have here when you are having a bad moment....

Sunblue

Ami

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #34 on: March 16, 2008, 09:16:54 PM »
Oh Sun,
 That is so sweet. 
 Your words are so helpful and comforting,Sun.
 By scapegoat, I mean the 'bad" one in the family. The family can polarize the good child(golden) and the bad child(scapegoat). Your sister seemed to be "golden.
 Scott was the "golden child ' for my H .
 It is unbelievable how good people  have been to me, on the board and 3D. i always have s/one to call or s/one to come over if I need it.
 I have been given so much love!!                  Thanks Sun,             Love    Ami
« Last Edit: March 17, 2008, 08:42:57 AM by Ami »
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Iphi

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2008, 10:40:36 PM »
Gratitude - thank  you for this topic.  I completely identify with these thoughts and struggles because they are mine too.  I feel that this is possibly my most painful area.  Reading this topic seemed to help me break through some denial and also into some clarity in some small respects. 

I don't have time for a long post now but I hope I will get a chance to contribute some more thoughts and share some of my story too, here.

Sunblue, that is so sad that no one noticed that you were sad and depressed.  No one nurtured you and valued you and that is just heartbreaking and so wrong.  I feel so sad and also angry on your behalf, that it occurs to me I am feeling those feelings also perhaps on my behalf.  Usually I don't seem to feel things on my own behalf. 

Sun, congratulations that you accepted that job.  I know you feel badly about it and desperate but I think it's a wonderful, positive, survival oriented step and so very, very valuable.
Character, which has nothing to do with intellect or skill, can evolve only by increasing our capacity to love, and to become lovable. - Joan Grant

Kimberli63

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2008, 03:28:27 AM »
Gratitude, I have been thinking a lot about the after effects of what was done to us in the past and how we try and get passed them. I have been through a whole cycle, including forgiveness of those narcs that hijacked my life but I still trip up. I trip up because we have been brainwashed into believing we are someone we are not. I notice a number of people have addressed the issue of shame and I apologize to anyone, who feels that I have stepped on their toes, by posting this. That was not my intention. I just feel that there are several ways to tackle our issues and no one way is right for all of us. I struggled through some incredibly intellectual discussions and still couldn’t come to grips with this whole issue. It might be a cultural issue. I don’t know but I did find this seemingly light weight and easy to understand synopsis about shame. I thought I would share it. I know a lot of people who have talked about shame, have also contributed to this discussion. Once again, I am sorry if I have offended  anyone/

About Shame
http://helpyourselftherapy.com/topics/shame.html

SHAME AND GUILT
Shame is not the same as guilt.
When we feel guilt, it's about something we did.
When we feel shame, it's about who we are.
When we feel guilty we need to learn
that it's OK to make mistakes.

When we feel shame we need to learn
that it's OK to be who we are!


WHERE SHAME COMES FROM
Shame comes from being taught
that we are worthless or bad or something similar.
It comes in childhood from adults who say things like:
"You'll never amount to anything!"
"You are worthless!"
"I wish you were never born!"
"Shame on you!"
It also comes from severe physical discipline
since each hit of the hand or fist or belt says to the child:
"You don't matter at all!
Only what you do matters!"
And shame comes from being humiliated for our behavior.
It comes from adults who say:
"What would the neighbors think of you if they knew...?"
"You look ridiculous!"
"Don't you have any pride?"
"What's wrong with you anyway!?"
And it comes from being threatened
with shaming, or physical discipline, or humiliation.
When we are threatened with these things,
the psychological message is the same:
"I can and will treat you any way I want to...
You are a worthless weakling at my disposal!"


WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE WHO ARE SHAMED?
People who are shamed
have to live in the same world as all the rest of us
but they have to live in it
with the deep-down conviction that they are worthless.
The amount of continuous pressure
a deeply shamed person feels is immense.
When they are doing well,
they think it's only a matter of time
before they are discovered as useless.

When they make mistakes,
they expect a terrifying degree of anger
from the people they disappoint.
Every act is a "test"
- and they are convinced
that it's only a matter of time
before they fail completely.

LIVING IN SHAME AND LIVING "AS IF" YOU ARE O.K.
Some people who are convinced they are worthless
live out their lives to prove that they are worthless!
The most severe alcoholics, drug addicts,
and impulsive criminals are good examples.
Like all of us, they have a deep need to be known and to be seen
and to be recognized "for who I really am."
But since they actually believe they are worthless,
they have a strong need to prove their worthlessness
to everyone in their lives.
They don't hurt their families and friends because they don't love them
or because they want to hurt them.
They hurt their families and friends
out of this need to be "known"
- and out of the wrong belief that they are worthless.


Most people who are convinced they are worthless
live out their lives trying to prove they DO have worth.
These are the people who are constantly worried
about what you think of them,
and who constantly think
that you are judging them.
When you tell them they did a good job
they feel good for a few minutes,
but they soon feel worthless again
(and think that you wouldn't like them
if you "really" knew them).
If you tell them they did a poor job
they will either feel a strong urge to cry
or they will show an immense amount of anger
at you for saying such a "horrible" thing!
They don't understand
you are only commenting on the last thing they did.
They think you are commenting on them,
and on their worthlessness as human beings.


WHAT HELPS?
People who've been deeply shamed
need to be fully loved and accepted and valued!
Some people find a lover who deeply accepts, loves, and values them.
Others find a group of friends who deeply accept, love, and value them.
Most people need a therapist along the way
who shows them their value,
and who, perhaps more importantly,
helps them to stop
all the repetitious self-talk about their lack of worth.
Every person who is overcoming shame
will need to have many sources of love and acceptance.
One lover or friend or therapist is never enough.
The more totally they can trust these new sources of love in their life,
the more deeply they will accept the love they need.
(The love of less trustable people is also valuable, of course
- just not nearly as valuable.)
Overcoming shame takes a long time.
But it is well worth it for the moment
when the deeply shamed person finally says
with unmistakable surprise and amazement in their voice:
"You know, I really am a good person!"

EVERYONE:


Shame: What You Can Do About It
http://helpyourselftherapy.com/topics/shame2.html
Most of us have problems with shame, to one degree or another.
The first article in this series ("About Shame")
helped you to learn if you have a big problem with shame.
This second article is for anyone who finds any shame in their life.

YOUR OVERALL GOAL
To overcome shame, you need to learn that
it's OK to be who you are!
To get there, you must have
and absorb deeply
many separate moments
of being accepted, loved, or valued.
I'll be giving you some practical ideas about how to do this.


ABOUT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSEST TO YOU
Stop relying on anyone who treats you as if you are not OK.
Spend more and more of your time with
the people who know you are OK the way you are.
And let them know more and more about you.
Choose your relationships based on how you are treated
- not just on whether the other person feels "comfortable."
[We are "comfortable" with what we are used to
- even when it's bad for us!]
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
It's contagious.


WHEN PEOPLE TREAT YOU POORLY
Tell them to stop it!
If they keep it up, don't tell them over and over.
This is like "begging."
It makes you feel weak in their presence.
You need to feel strong when you have to be around such people!
Expect people who treat you badly
to keep it up
and hold them responsible
for how they treat you.
Hold yourself responsible
for how much time you spend with them,
how you respond to their mistreatment,
and whether you take their opinions seriously.

When people imply that you aren't valuable,
they are wrong.
You must learn how to throw away such comments immediately.
(You know how angry you get when you are treated this way.
This anger is your guide.
It tells you that this person's opinion of you is worthless
and can be thrown away without question.)

Know that only a few people are likely to treat you poorly.
The rest of us are ready to treat you well!
(If you catch yourself thinking otherwise,
at least remind yourself that I am positive you are wrong!)


NEXT...

The suggestions coming up next are even more important than what you've read so far.


WHEN PEOPLE TREAT YOU WELL

Absorb it!

Always take at least a few seconds
to FEEL the good feelings you get when you are treated well.
Let your appreciation show.
(Your natural smile will do just fine!)

Showing your appreciation reinforces the other person
and encourages them to stay around you longer.
Don't talk yourself out of it!
Most compliments are honest.
Even when someone is trying to manipulate you they say things they mean!
Turn down the manipulation
but accept the compliment!

For example:
"Thanks for noticing how attractive I am,
but I still don't want to give you my phone number."
and,
"Thanks for noticing I have good taste in cars,
but I still won't pay what you are asking for this one."


WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT LATER
The most important factor in overcoming shame is
how you treat yourself when you get home!

When you've been treated poorly
how do you treat yourself afterwards?
The Unhealthy Option:
Focus on yourself and wonder if they were right
about the bad things they said!
"Maybe they are right and I am a jerk!"
"Maybe I am stupid!"
The Healthy Option:
Focus on your anger at the mistreatment!
"What a jerk he was!"
"What's wrong with someone like that!?"
"Who asked for her opinion?!"

When you've been treated well
how do you treat yourself afterwards?

Do you relax and think about the good things?

Do you mentally recycle the best parts?

Do you notice how much you agree about your good qualities?

Do you take the time to ENJOY feeling good?


ANSWERS TO THE USUAL OBJECTIONS
Q: "What about all the horrible mistakes I made in my life?"
A: "You needed to make them, to learn.
Now that you know they were mistakes, you have learned!"

Q: "What about all the people I've hurt?"
A: "And what about all the people they've hurt?
Hurting each other is awful, but it's part of life."

Q: "Won't I keep screwing up if I don't feel ashamed?"
A: "It never stopped you in the past!
Shame doesn't control you. YOU control you."

Q: "This is all B.S.! I'm bad, and I know it, and I need to feel this way."
A: "Your pain is only a warning.
You've got your warning.
Feeling more of it won't help anything."

Q: "We all need to suffer or else terrible things will happen in this world!"
A: "If you ever meet the mean people who taught you that,
tell them I said they were full of it!"


Kim in Oz, struggling to understand this concept of shame and worth.

Ami

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2008, 08:48:19 AM »
That REALLY helped ,Kim. Thank you SO much. Right before Scott died( a few months) God sent me s/one to love me.That love is loosening up my shame. I AM feeling like I can love myself.
      Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

Overcomer

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2008, 09:09:55 AM »
I am special because I am GOING TO BE A GRANDMA!  And because despite the robbing of my self at a young age I was able to produce three great kids!  I do not know what I did other than just LOVE them and accept them for who they are.  I was thinking about what everyone said about child rearing-break their will but not their spirit-well my mom came pretty near to taking my spirit!  Boy but there was a little glimmer of spirit left and I am stoking that fire!
Kelly

"The Best Way Out is Through........and try laughing at yourself"

Ami

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2008, 11:37:09 AM »
Dear Kelly,
 I can tell that you were a great Mom--honest, accepting, funny, being able to separate the essential from the nonessential.
 I think that you will enjoy every minute of your D's pregnancy and the baby, when it arrives.
 You deserve good things . Your M has taken away enough from you.
 She could not rob you of the joy of your children , though.                Love   Ami
No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.        Eleanor Roosevelt

Most of our problems come from losing contact with our instincts,with the age old wisdom stored within us.
   Carl Jung

gratitude28

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Re: Trying to Justify Myself (What Am I Worth???)
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2008, 11:34:49 AM »
I read these posts during Spring Break, but did not take the time to respond and thank you all, so I am going to do so now. They really helped me a lot.

Kimberli,
Thank you for the posting about shame and guilt. I am still separating one from the other and figuring out what is mine, and what comes from without. It is hard to know what is what when your childhood included everything mashed together and used as a tool to bring about compliance. So... I find I have little shame now that I am honest with myself. I amke my decisions based on my beliefs now, so I do not need shame in my life. I think shame comes from meking decisions that are forced on us... (some shame). I have also lost almost all guilt feelings. With being more secure in my life, I have no need now for the guilt (although I am sure it could be provoked!!).

Sun, bean,
I am working on accepting myself as I am... and Sun, I am glad you took the job. I am actually happy at my job, although it is far, far from what I wanted. I have a nice working atmosphere and am surrounded my kind people. How can that not be good? I had a job that was "perfect" as far as my NM was concerned (money, position, close to fame) and the people were vicious(sp) and uncaring and I dreaded work each day. So... how can I believe this is not better????

Love, Beth





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