Forgiveness

[Betelgeuse]

Lupita added an eight-step Forgiveness procedure on her 'Detachment' thread. Detachment and forgiveness are obviously related and one may argue that forgiveness is conducive to detachment (and vice versa).

However, Lupita, your eight steps seem most appropriate for minor upsets, ranging from someone not having flushed the toilet (AGAIN) to a single incident of infidelity (depending on how that flies with you).

Forgiving people who have crushed or maimed your spirit, hurt you physically, severely neglected you - leaving life-long impairments, especially if they were responsible for raising you is much more complicated IMO.

Many philosophers have written about forgiveness. I've been especially impressed with the work of the French philosopher Vladimir Jankélevich, who wrote from the perspective of Holocaust survivors. Crimes against humanity are obviously the most serious crimes, but what he said about forgiveness is also applicable to survivors of crimes against children. This is, in a nutshell, what he said about the subject:

• Forgiveness is not necessary (not from a metaphysical point of view nor with a view to personal healing - although he certainly wouldn't have used such a new age term, lol )
  

Forgiveness is impossible if no forgiveness has been asked (basically because, according to him, it would be meaningless)

Until I read Jankélevitch I thought I 'had' to forgive at some point, in order to get well. I also felt some rush or compulsion into forgiveness when dealing with my parents. I now believe that that was a 'rush' into denial, in an attempt to escape pain. I read the phrase 'flight into forgiveness' somewhere, and it seems apt to me. 'Forgiveness' can be an attempted short-cut and as such it won't work. You won't feel better.

Another thought on forgiveness: the process can be broken down into two steps -

- Renouncing revenge
- Resuming contact as if the offense/abuse has not happened

It is perfectly possible and healthy to restrict forgiveness to the first step, i.e. the renouncing. It's not easy. It means more than giving up the idea that the perpetrators will be punished some day, it also means giving up hope. The hope that one day they'll fully recognize what they've done, the lingering hope that one day they'll be the people/parents we so desperately needed them to be.

Whatever we do, I believe forgiveness has to come out of our strength, not our weakness.

These are some of the thoughts I've been guided by. I would really like to hear from others what their ideas on forgiveness are.

Bee

[Gaining Strength]

I came on line to post a thought to someone on board who is struggling with a long term issue of being treated horridly by family over a very long time.  I saw your thread and sense forgiveness is definitely part of what I was going to write about I thought I would see what you had to say.  I have not yet read Lupita's thread that you refer to but will.  

These words caught my attention: "Whatever we do, I believe forgiveness has to come out of our strength, not our weakness."  I strongly agree with you. Forgiveness out of weakness is simply more victimization and is not empowering.  Other than this point, I have a different take on forgiveness than the one you describe and I want to post why.  

Many years ago, I was in a terribly troubled marriage and could not see a way to repair the damage.  I consulted a priest and one of the things he suggested I do was to apologize and forgive my husband.  "But he won't accept my apology and won't feel the need to be forgiven," I protested.  "It doesn't matter," he responded. "The apology and forgiveness are offered for yourself.  He alone can make the choice to accept your offering but the value comes not in his acceptance but in your offering."  I wasn't sure about that but I took his council.

For years I would pursue the issue of forgiveness and read and listened to many theories, some of which were close to the one you mention.  I came across several theories that finally pushed me over the edge.  One of those was described in a book called, "Forgiving Dead Man Walking."  It is by the woman who was raped, tortured by the man who is the subject of the movie, "Dead Man Walking."  The author's testimony was critical to his conviction and subsequent death.  Her perspective was very, very moving to me.  In a nutshell she came to the conclusion that forgiving the man who tortured her was about freeing herself from the torment that she experienced for so long.  

This concept was not new to me. I had heard it described by an episcopal priest from Australia many years ago.  He talked about the lack of forgiveness leading to physical illness.  He had come to believe that unforgiveness, even, perhaps especially when justified, damaged the person holding and harboring the anger and bitterness.  He used a phrase, (though perhaps not his own) that really got the message to me.  He said the staying in a state of unforgiveness was like taking rat poison and waiting for the rat to die.

Forgiving someone is not about absolving them.  The victim of Dead Man Walking did not argue that the criminal should not be punished but she forgave him to detach herself from the bitterness that had taken over and destroyed her life.  When she forgave him she did not see him as anything other than the monster that his actions were but she was able to get over her lifelong bind to the crime and finally became free to live or to reclaim her life.

So I have decided for some time to practise this forgiveness.  It has truly helped me break free of the bitterness and resentment and that has been the single most significant act of my healing.

[gratitude28]

Bee,
Very important and appropos post...
I am not sure where I stand on forgiveness right now. I am not sure why I would bother, especially as the behavior continues and will never be recognized as being wrong.
I did forgive myself for past transgressions, and I do keep tabs on how I act now.
Can I move forward without forgiving??? I am not sure.
Good, good topic.
Love, Beth

[Betelgeuse]

Thank you so much for your thoughts. Yes, we don't all have the same opinions, although the differences are partly due to semantics. It was interesting to read what works for you.

Amber, years ago (when I was in my twenties) I did the 'reframing of the crime'. I fully realized I had opportunities my mother never had, I was soaring at a university abroad though hampered by many symptoms I only slowly came to understand, I was (still am) a feminist and told myself that with her personality, upbringing, pre-feminist culture, the war etc. she was as much a victim of circumstance as I was.

Yet I suffered from insomnia, anxiety and panic attacks and I was still afraid of her. I now believe this early 'reframing' was yet another denial, taking the shape of hubris (feeling superior to her so I wouldn't experience the pain anymore). Most of my attempts at rethinking the abuse were flights from pain.

I hope to reach your acceptance of what can never be changed now. I'm working at it! When I really get there, I wouldn't call it 'forgiveness' though, but rather something like 'acceptance'. I'm moving there, for me an essential step was confronting her and getting feedback from siblings.

GS: thank you for your thoughtful post. I agree with you that it's not healthy to hold onto anger, resentment, bitterness. But must the alternative be called 'forgiveness'? When no reparation in any form or shape has taken place (punishment, apologies, amends), 'forgiveness' seems to me to be a denial of reality and of self.

In the case of Dead Man Walking, society has taken over revenge/punishment. Justice has been done, which seems to me a prerequisite for forgiveness (other than the perpetrator accepting their responsibility). I don't know what the victim's view of capital punishment was, but she has been revenged. That's liberating and may open the way to forgiveness (of the perpetrator, and maybe of self and society for the extremity of the punishment). I don't know the book, but I'll look out for it.

Of course, the aim of forgiveness is freedom.

Here's where the semantics may come in. Maybe you call 'forgiveness' what I'd call 'renouncement' or 'letting go'. Your 'absolving' would then be my 'forgiveness' (sorry, this part is rather adressed to Amber I believe).

My highest ambition is 'letting go', 'forgiveness' has taken up too much energy in the past, I need that energy to heal and repare my wounds and dysfunctions.

((lollie)) ((grat))

Bee

[Gabben]

- Renouncing revenge
- Resuming contact as if the offense/abuse has not happened

This was helpful, thank you.

Lise

[Gabben]

I think there is something to the "flight of forgiveness" being a form of denial or a way to run away from the pain. Whenever I have "forgiven" too quickly or made it a conscious act instead of letting it occur on its own timetable, I tend to slip back into anger and resentment.

Time is an essential componet in the healing of wounds - "time heals all wounds."

There is something to be said about suffering well; when we embrace our cross with the words "forgive them for they do not know what they do" -- (wipe their offense out as if it never happened) then we are on the road to genuine forgiveness.

Allowing for time to run it's course is what creates our pearls of wisdom.

Like a oyster, it takes a grain of sand, an irritant to get into the oyster, if the oyster does not reject the grain of sand then it will form a protective coat over the sand --  a beautiful pearl of wisdom.

The hurt that someone gives us is like a grain of sand, if we forgive too soon then we reject the opportunity to gain in wisdom and growth.

[Gaining Strength]

I think you are correct - that it may be semantics.  I'm not sure but I think your letting go may be very much what I am getting at with the word "forgiveness".  I see that "forgiveness" for you is over loaded with weight that is contrary to your concept of "letting go."  Glad you have a concept that works for you.

[James]

Betelgeuse........Forgiveness used to be a real touchy subject for me . Attempting it got me in a lot of trouble. I recently took a journey back into a lot of chilhood pain and i see that what happened wasn't because of me being a bad child. I was just a loving kid who was unloved and mistreated.  I feel love for myself now and  i can even offer my parents love without being affected by what ever they decide. I am OK now. I had forgivness crammed down my throat at the expense of my true feelings especially my rage. It only kept me in denial. Forgivess in not abt me its their story. I see that it was a lure that kept me forgetting and forgiving everything that happened because i wanted be loved so bad. Everytime i did this i denied my true feelings. It kept me in a place of self hate and i had good reasons to hate them. I think its dangerous. It can easily force one back into the old pattern where the abused child winds up thinking he's bad. In it's own way it's just as bad as the abuse because it leaves one being trapped in it with no way out. What abused child doesn't want to forgive, it offers hope that he will receive love but then is forced to deny his feelings and the reality of the abuse if he does. I'm out of denial and feeling a lot better. I love myself now and i can extend it elsewhere without any expectations. If my parents asked for forgiveness, i would, but they would have to know and admit exactly what they did. They have not asked. Otherwise i will leave it alone. I can be OK without it. Its not a matter of forgiveness on the part of the abused. The pressures for giveness that were crammed down my throat early on was coming from my abusers and others in denial. They probably forgive everything that was done to them and therefore it seemed right that i do the same. IMO it's crazy. Its just not necessary to forgive in order to get well and live a fullfilled life. I find love in me and that just has a way of extending to others but it's not the same as just blindly forgiving, ingnoring what happened. I think the whole idea of forgiveness is abt the abusers need to somehow deny what h/s did. hope this made sense......James

[Betelgeuse]

James, that makes perfect sense to me and I'm really glad you're doing OK now.

I agree, 'forgiveness' can be a mask for many other drives and needs and I can well understand how your parents' insistance on it only kept you in denial.

Keep well!

Bee

[James]

Thanks betelgeuse..... its finally made sense to me, glad you see it too.  James

[Betelgeuse]

Amber, I started reading through your posts to find out more about your approach to healing. I'm with the '7 deadly sins' now, which I'd skipped earlier because of the religious connotations, lol. You don't seem to have chosen 'forgiveness' as a road to recovery, but rather different forms of self-awareness, emotional and physical healing that have generated or helped the process of detachment. Am I right?

Because that was my point (and I think also James'): 'forgiveness' in se is not a recipe for healing, and purely intellectual efforts in that direction are not helpful and may even be counterproductive. I know GS thinks differently. I'm taking it all in, Amber...

hugs

Bee

[Gabben]

What abused child doesn't want to forgive, it offers hope that he will receive love but then is forced to deny his feelings and the reality of the abuse if he does.

This is so true. My mom would yell and scream at us all the time, especially in the mornings before we got dropped off at school.

Then she would come pick us up and act as if nothing happened. I learned a warped way of forgiving...it was called stuffing.

Looking back I began to process the trauma of my teen years with escape rituals such as music and reading until I found alcohol and drugs which worked so much more effectively.

Evertime I hurt myself I am in effect acting out revenge on mom and dad....as if to say "look what you made me do!"

The day that I am treating myself with full dignity and self-respect will be the day that I know that I have completely forgiven my parents.

That day is coming...I can feel so much more peace in my heart, the rage and raw hurt has subsided and now I am extend forgiveness...by taking good care of me....no more self-destructive behavior...at least that is my goal.

[Gaining Strength]

Betetgeuse - I'm not sure I think differently.  By James and Gabbens experience of "forgiveness" I would have no interest in trying that nor in encouraging anyone to try those versions of forgiveness.  That's why I think that the word had developed unacceptable baggage for some, insurmountable baggage. 

I am not so interested in the word as in the concept and you concept of "letting go" so seem to share some of the concepts that I have attached to the word "forgiveness."  I am all about letting go of my attachment to my bitterness and resentment and valid self-righteousness and justified contempt for what happened to me purely as a way of getting free from the darkness that has so long imprisoned me.  I am not about letting anyone off the hook nor about making them pay nor even acknowledge their wrongs.  I no longer need to tie my healing to anything they do or don't do. 

My version of forgiveness is really all about me - all about cutting the emotional ties that have bound me too long.  That part sounds inline with what others are posting here - at least to my ears.  I would rather stand in agreement with this group than hold onto some concept that is painful and offensive to some of my brothers and sisters here.  I would much rather be a part of this group dynamic of support and encouragement than hold out for "winning" converts to my position.

I am all about healing and while some of us will necessarily take different routes I am also interested in the paths that we share.  That shared path feels great to me and it in and of itself has healing properties for me.  I like the word forgiveness but will let it go in this thread because I don't mean anything close to what James and Gabben experienced by the use of that same word.

[debkor]

My mother had a terrible abusive childhood by her father and her mother sat by and watched it happen. 

On his death bed he asked and begged for forgiveness.  She ignored him.  He begged her again before he died and her answer was No.
And he died.

She had to live with what he did to her for the rest of her life.  Those things cannot be taken back or go away.  She would always resent him but he did not control or run her life anymore. She was an adult now free to pick and choose what she wanted to do, who she wanted to be, where she wanted to go, how she felt, who she loved, who she would keep away or embrace.  It was her choice not one forced upon her or beat into her.  Just like the choice to forgive or not forgive.

If she did not forgive him she had every right too. She accepted what he was and who he was.  He was an abuser.  He was her father. No more and no less.

She lived her life fully and was a great mom gave me good values and lots of love till the day she died and I carry it on to my own.
She didn't need to forgive to make her this and set her free to be what she was, who she became and what she passed on to me.

She did alright! Without forgiving.

Sometimes things are just unforgivable. 

I guess she, SHE, let it go but she didn't let him LET IT GO!  He was the one who had to live with himself or die with himself. HE OWNED IT. 

Love
Deb
 

[Betelgeuse]

Aww GS, I'm afraid my last post came out all wrong. I didn't mean to be argumentative or single you out, in fact I just wanted to salute the diversity of perspectives in the light of our shared goal: freeing ourselves from past abuse. I'm here to learn, with respect for others. I tend to focus on words and concepts because they're my line of interest. Also, in my FOO words were twisted out of their meaning, which left me with a shaky grip on reality.

Haven't got much time right now but wanted to post you this. Later, I'll read through what Lupita added on her thread.

Lise, I so agree with you when you say that we tend to hurt ourselves as an act of revenge on our parents. Deeper down, self-hurt/neglect is also a twisted form of obedience I believe : 'Look, you were right, I'm not worthy of being treated well'.

Bee