Caught in the corssifre

[darren]

I used to hang out on a few other forums where people would come to share and support each other and offer advice.  That place took a turn for the worse, and lots of damage was done.  There was a lot of fighting, and accusations of sock puppetry ran rampant.  I don't doubt that there weren't sock puppets about.  In fact, some of them seemed to be around just to create conflict and paranoia.  The therapuetic enviroment turned toxic.  Evevntually, everybody was a sockpuppet and nobody was beyond accusation. Those who were once rightuos began accusing innocent people.  Anybody who was hurting eventually lost their voice to those who wanted to fight over it.  It seemed like abusive people came along, and then those who were once defending themselves just turned into abusive people also.  All the innocent people fell into the shadows and that was a shame.  A while back I even watched that fiasco spill over to here.   Is there no escape?  I suppose I just find it makes me a bit uneasy.  It makes it hard to trust people, especially when its not your specialty.  It also makes me lose faith in society, and throw my hands up in the air.  I suppose its a part of life, or its just because I see from the perspective of somebody who is radically different from everybody else (not necissarilly in a good way.), but I just don't understand people and their interactions.  Perhaps I'm naive in believing in a conflict free life. 

Anyways, I wrote the following about it though nobody heard it them.   

"I’ve been reminded of my childhood a bit lately.  There was a constant battle and people were always fighting, arguing, and bickering back and forth.  As a child it wasn’t really easy listening to, but I did get very used to it.  I always found it perplexing that other children were upset or if their parents talked of divorce or separation.  I would have been happy, and found myself often suggesting it to my parents.  “You guys don’t get along, you’d be happier if you were away from each other.”  I never even thought about who I’d end up staying with and didn’t care.  Later in life I was told they were sticking together for our benefit.  Having experienced life the way I did, I can’t explain what those kind of words do to me.

Fighting often triggers a bit of feeling in me.  I’m an adult now and recognize such, and recognize its appropriate at times and there are appropriate places for it, but I’m still reminded of the times it wasn’t and think of myself in those places where it wasn’t.  People fought, people exchanged harsh words, and nobody would let go.  One day my mother might start it all, and the next my father would provoke the fighting.  My mother would tell me all the horrible things about my father that made her act, feel, and react in the ways she did.  She was right, and it made sense.  My father would do the same, and he was right, that made sense too.  Both had legitimate reasons to hate the other and be upset with them on a daily basis.  They had a right to express it.  My mother never came home, never cleaned the house, never fixed dinner, never worked, and spent all her time on the telephone and neglecting the family, nagged constantly and yelled and raged at the kids.  My father, he expected all these things to be done but not having to be deserving of them.  He didn’t come home, drank, got addicted to porn, and didn’t support the family.… I don’t blame them for hating each other.  But really, who started it all?  Does it matter?

Me, I was just caught in the crossfire.  Everybody had their legitimate reasons for feeling the way they did, but I couldn’t help but notice it destroyed everything.  It destroyed them, it destroyed the house, and my siblings.  They cared more about fighting and their own issues than they did about raising us in a more loving environment without all the chaos.  You could tell me all day long about how complicated it is, and about how they felt and why, but I grew not to care.  They cared about their own feelings and how they were wronged, and they stopped caring about the rest of us.  That’s the wrong I see done to me.  And I don’t place any blame on who started all that fighting and bickering because I don’t care.  The real crime is that nobody cared enough about the other people involved to stop it.  I guess growing up in that environment shaped me into who I am.  There always has to be another way to achieve things; something other than war.   There *has* to be, or else, I lose all faith in life and humanity all together.

Everyone in my family felt justified in what they did, but all I saw was destruction, and a bunch on Ns. that accomplished nothing at all.  All that was left was an empty dusty old house that nobody cared to come home to anymore.  Somebody did something wrong.  I’m glad now that the place was sold and everybody’s out.   Maybe a new couple will have a chance to raise a family in it and be productive to society.  Maybe somebody else can do it right, and plant a garden that will grow.  "

[Betelgeuse]

Darren, I'm glad I didn't sign off straight away, it gives me a chance to say I heard you..

I'm really sorry you had to grow up in all that chaos and selfishness, and I understand that bickering online brings back painful memories.

My parents never fought with each other, they took their conflicts and craziness out on me. I don't deal well with conflict either, it upsets me. I am the one who posted about multiple identities on this board, btw, so any conflict on that count is my responsibility. I have no taste for confusion and hurt, so I'm signing off tonight or tomorrow morning. That should settle things down.

All the best, Darren

(I was going to send you a hug but something tells me you're not the hugging type)

So:

Affectionately

Bee

[Gaining Strength]

Everyone in my family felt justified in what they did, but all I saw was destruction,
Such a powerful line.  Such a tragic tale.  So familiar to many of us here.
Thanks for sharing.

[gjazz]

Darren:  Well said!  Mine was not an arguing family, exactly the opposite.  Fighting was out of the question.  We couldn't even say what we felt.  Zero conflict all day, every day.  But constant undermining and subtle threats.  Same result, different way of getting there.  In any event, I can't agree more that when an incendiary little bomb gets thrown, everyone feels justified in their position.  They ARE justified in having a position, but it can be difficult to learn to pick your battles, and to state positions respectfully and with care, rather than attack randomly and viciously.  My sister-in-law had a family much like yours, from your description here, and every interaction for her to this day is a fight.  She lives crouched (metaphorically) in a fighter's stance, always looking for the next attack and trying to get the first licks in.  I'm so sorry you went through so much as a child.  I hope you do continue to find solace here. 

[Ami]

I am sorry you are hurting and confused, Darren. The board does not seem safe,now, but there ARE safe people ,within in. That may help you to consider.
  I can feel your dissapointment and reluctance to pour your heart out here and risk hurt, like in our families.
 The board goes in cycles with conflict. Hopefully, it will go back to a peaceful place, but these conflicts do cause a loss of innocence, which is what you may be talking about.
 I think that our hope for a safe place , finally, gets dashed.
 I hope you will stay and comtinue to post. I think that,in the end,good outweighs bad, here.
 I think that the good in people prevailed and that is the way that I  see it.   Love   Ami

[Hopalong]

Glad you shared all this, Darren.
Of COURSE fights here would be triggering, and especially when noone will let go. Lastworditis.
(I'm always startled when something I thought was settled gets revived.)

I'll keep on typing...wanted to respond to this:

My mother would tell me all the horrible things about my father that made her act, feel, and react in the ways she did.  She was right, and it made sense.  My father would do the same, and he was right, that made sense too.  Both had legitimate reasons to hate the other and be upset with them on a daily basis.  They had a right to express it.

I don't believe they did have a right to express it... TO YOU.
It's an intolerable burden, for one parent to dump their hatred of the other parent on the child.
It's horrible. It's brutal, crazy-making, boundary bashing, completely self-absorbed.
It's like saying, Mommy wants your right arm. And then, Daddy wants your right arm.
How the hell is a kid who loves them both and fears losing either supposed to respond?

It's selfish, cruel and completely WRONG for parents to do that to their children. (IMN-H)!  )
Even with a monster parent, I believe the other parent has the responsibility to respect the child's vulnerable love for that parent. (Though in some cases it's not safe for the child to see them.)

A child is a separate being with their own love.
It's not right for an adult to try to destroy a child's love.
As a chld gets older, they'll respect the safe parent's restraint, and finally beginning asking about what they're ready to learn about the "bad parent's" bad behavior. But it should never be forced on them.

Hang in, Darren.
This is a good place.
We go off the rails now and then but there's always been a basic decency that surfaces.

love
Hops

[Juno]

Excellent post Darren.  I used to sit in my nice big closet in our brand new house when I was 12, 13, 14 and listen to stuff going on.  It wasn't really much of a refuge, though.  I could hear it all.  I didn't feel safe.  But where I was, was better than being in it.  There was no way I was going to insert myself into the fray.  I did have definite opinions about who was at fault and I was filled with anger, rage, listening to all of it.  It was maddening.  I'm still unraveling all of it.  It was poisonous that's for sure.  In so many ways.  It wasn't every single day but it was often enough and bad enough.

After age 14, my family flew apart and I remember treasuring the peacefulness.  Sometimes I would lay on the couch and try to remember what it was like before and it didn't seem real anymore.

Turned out that flying apart wasn't the answer for any of us either.  Each of us went on to have even more problems in life.  What we needed was for the adults to be adults and face the truth and live the truth and do the hard work of being a family.  My parents were truly incapable of that, though.

The peacefulness was nice.  And peacefulness is necessary for being able to see what needs to be done next.  The inner work is so hard.  And it is next to impossible to do the inner work if you have to be in survivor mode.  The two things are mutually exclusive.  As we all learned in childhood.

[Leah]

for Darren and Hops,

Herein, may be answers you are seeking, with regard to behavioural thoughts and actions etc.

Finding this information last year, was immensely helpful to my seeking, and now, I can understand why.

Leah x


Projection, Blaming, Grudge Holding, Doomsday Thinking, Revenge Thoughts, Black and White Thinking:

Irrational Ways of Thinking Which Keeps You Angry -- and creates a lifetime of misery

We all have irrational thoughts, which keep us caught in anger and neurotic behavior. Erroneous beliefs are beliefs and defenses we build up and replay with anger so we do not have to know the truth about our self They are called errors of thought or cognitions. These errors in thinking are defense mechanisms that we have learned at an early age, but do not work as we grow older. When people impose rigid expectations on themselves, other people, and the world because of their beliefs, they are likely to experience unnecessary emotional distress.

Irrational thoughts are crazy making!

They keep us in victim mode and chaos. They cause us to avoid responsibility for our own actions. Happiness in life can be achieved when you learn to break into your negative thinking. Errors in the way you think perpetuate depression, helplessness and anger keeping you from being at peace. So first, learn about your own erroneous beliefs, and then you can learn to help your child interpret the world in realistic ways.

Catch yourself saying things that are illogical. Talk about your inaccurate ways of thinking with your family. Show them how happier your family would be if you break these bad habits of thinking and talking. Then you can challenge your children to point out crazy-making words. Tell them, 'you can catch me in my own words when I think in absurd ways and I'll try to catch you.'

Here are the most common errors in thinking that add to a lifetime of misery:

Over Generalized Thinking:   Over Generalized statements are exaggerations. For example, 'He NEVER considers my opinion. You ALWAYS interrupt me. She ALWAYS tells me what to do. I have to do ALL the work. I NEVER get a break. EVERYBODY picks on me.' Watch your language for 'never, always, should, everybody, 'I can't stand it and I can't take it anymore.'

Making an Assumption and Running with it:   What you assume is only what you assume. Assumptions may or may not be true. There may be other reasons why things happen. Generate multiple reasons why you think something has happened. Check out your assumption with others to get to the facts of the issue. Jumping to conclusions is another form of making an assumption and acting on it as if it were true.

Fortune Telling:  is projecting your assumption on future events based on what happened in the past. Fortune telling is assuming that what happened in the past will happen in the future. When you say, 'I bet that this will happen,' then you are predicting the future. You may or you may not be right.

Focusing on the Other Person's Behavior in the Past not the Present:  Some people live so much in the hurts of the past that they do not realize that another person has changed or is trying to change. They keep an old version of the person in their mind. Sometimes people do change, so do an update in your mind about them.

Piggybacking is bringing up old issues from the past during an argument  which diverts the argument into old unresolved hurts and pain while avoiding the current issue. 'You have been doing this to me for years. Last year, you did this to hurt me so, I must bring it up again and again.' This way of fighting brings in every thing but the kitchen sink to be angry about. Piggybacking spreads the argument so thin with so many accusations, that the main thing you are fighting about does not get solved.

Closed Mind Thinking:  'Don't tell me anything 'I know best for me' kind of thinking. Stubborn insistence on one's own opinion without taking in information from others can be a set up for rigidity in life.

Black or white Thinking:  There is no middle ground or gray in black or white thinking. Certain people are seen as either totally bad or good. Situations are either/or. There is no understanding of where the other person is coming from, only staunch judgment. 'I'm right and you are wrong' always leads to a 'lose-lose' situation.

Preoccupation with Right and Wrong and Perceived Injustice:   Blaming others is a way of life for some people. If you hear yourself continually saying, 'It's not fair!' then you are focusing on the negative instead of going into problem solving. Much of life really isn't fair! So what? Keeping score of slights from others and dwelling on them creates a climate of hurt and suspicion. Having a list of 'shoulds' for the partner, which are inconsistent with his or her personality, will undermine a relationship. Focusing on unfairness keeps them caught in anger, resentment and grudges. (Hey, life frequently is unfair, but focusing on it only makes you more miserable!)

Grudge Holding:  is a habit that is hard to break into. People who harbor grudges have deeper issues of mistrust. Grudge holding is a learned behavior that is prevalent in some families. Grudges fan the fire of anger as a way of trying to feel safe by feeling powerful in fantasy. Grudge holding appears to be a way to attempt to control negative situations by retaining the angry feelings. Grudges are a habit of feeling self righteous and distance one's self instead of dealing with the real problem.

Revenge Thoughts:  are grudges plus wanting to get even with the other person. Revengeful thoughts are basically selfish in nature with the belief of 'I have the right to hurt him because he injured me.' which is based on beliefs of 'It's not fair.' Revenge is 'I can enjoy thoughts of hurting another person in my mind to get back at him.' Revenge creates a pseudo self esteem of feeling good about one's self by relishing ideas of harming another person. Vengeful thoughts can actually trigger endorphins in the brain which associate hurting others with feeling good. Grudges fan the fire of anger as a way of trying to feel safe by feeling powerful in fantasy. Grudge holding and revenge are way of putting up walls to guard the self against further hurt. Revenge is challenging to break into because of their positive value of enjoyment and feelings of entitlement (I have the right to hurt him and feel good about it.) Acting in ways that make you successful is the best revenge for any hurt that has been done to you..

Catastrophe Thinking:  People who engage in this error take the problem to the worst-case scenario then worry that it will happen. This type of assumption looks for the worst-case scenario. This is doomsday thinking where they person worrying about the worst thing that could possibly happen. Doomsday thinking causes you to live with the threat of impending disaster. This type of thoughts escalates during times of fatigue or depression.

Egocentric thinking:  Taking things personally is a sure-fire set up for unhappiness. Thin-skinned people usually have a big pool of hurt inside. If your feels get hurt more than others, get into therapy to find out why and what to do to toughen up. Suffering in silence or saying 'You make me feel....' is the most common error here. No one can make you feel anything. Your feelings are entirely your own.

Entitlement thinking:  This way of viewing the world is to believe that your way is right and is the only way. If others do no agree with you, anger comes up. The belief is 'You must agree with me and do things my way or I have the right (I'm entitled) to get angry. Empathy is the ability to see things from the perspective of another person and feel compassion. The only person we can change is our self--to dwell on how others do not meet our needs keeps you in anger or depression.

Irrational Emotional Reasoning:   Fear beliefs and accompanying emotions need to be checked out. Much fear is irrational having no basis in danger. Feelings are important but it we interpret all feelings are TRUTH then we are at the mercy of our fear and anger thought. Example: 'If I feel you don't love me, you don't love me. If I feel like a victim, I must be a victim.' Get past your overly sensitive feelings of the moment to see the bigger picture.

The False Consensus Effect:   They are in error when they assume that others think the same way that they do. Gullible people cannot understand how devious others can be, because they do not have that negative framework in their brain. Angry ,manipulative people make up the worst about others in their minds. They see others as bad while excusing the same traits in themselves. People often see their own attitudes and behavior as 'normal' and overestimate the best or the worst in others.

Minimalizing One's Own Contribution to the Problem at hand:  Some people belittle the problem saying it is not important. They deny personal understanding and remorse regarding their actions. This way of thinking avoids personal responsibility thus limiting emotional growth.

Projection is a common defense mechanism:  where a person gets upset with a trait in someone else that he wishes to deny in himself. They suppress the knowledge that they have the same trait and externalize blame on the other person. They are highly sensitized to the unwanted behaviors in others and transfer their horror and anger at their own unwanted inner trait to an outside person. Much of their internal thought or words during an argument is focused on blaming the other person. We all have a bit of projection in us, but some people have the need to blame others big time, thus obstructing their own growth and learning.

People who project blame often feel a hidden stigma and shame at possessing a disgraceful personality trait so they 'project' or transfer anger on others to distract themselves from knowing the truth about their own self. They become so highly sensitized to the presence of their unwanted traits that it interferes with their social informational processing. So they don't see reality as it is and then operate out of their misperceptions. How do you know if you are projecting your anger on others? Preoccupation, judgments and anger about others' behavior are projection. If you spot it, you got it!

Another form of projection is to transfer the arrows and slings of life onto 'bad luck' or 'fate.' People who project often have other defenses such as Overgeneralized Thinking, which is the habit of making statements that emphasize that things are always that way. Examples of this type of thinking are: 'He never considers my opinion. You always put me down. She always tells me what to do. I have to do all the work. I never get a break. Why can't you ever get it right? and 'I can't stand it. I can't take anymore.' Overgeneralization language uses words like 'never, always, should and everybody or nobody.'

Always Putting the Blame on Others:   For some people, the first reaction to a problem is to find someone to blame. Blaming is a defense mechanism to avoid taking personal responsibility for the situation. The blamer rapidly finds fault in the other person and criticizes them. Trying to find a solution to the problem is much better than looking for someone to blame. Blaming is a pattern in some families that keeps people from becoming closer. People who blame others or situations without taking responsibility for their contribution to the problem never get the sense of satisfaction of growth. By refusing to see their own errors, they lose the opportunity to change the very aspects of themselves that keep them stuck.


So to create more harmony and happiness in your life, catch your errors of thinking and break into them. As the saying by Kahil Gibran goes, 'If your heart is a volcano, how shall you expect flowers to bloom?'


We Are As Healthy As We Are Ready To Take Responsibility For Our Own Thoughts And Behaviors!


http://www.angriesout.com/grown14.htm

[Ami]

Turned out that flying apart wasn't the answer for any of us either.  Each of us went on to have even more problems in life.  What we needed was for the adults to be adults and face the truth and live the truth and do the hard work of being a family.  My parents were truly incapable of that, tho.
[/quote]

My response to Juno's quote is that *I* must face the truth of life and live the truth. My story is that I got blocked from my own emotions and thoughts. I thought they were "bad'.Then, as my distorted  thinking progressed, I thought *I* had to be "nice"(ie perfect) and other people did ,too..
 To me, I will face it ALL, if it is real. I do not want to make myself or others"sanitized.'I did that for a long time.
  People are "real". That means pain, ego's ,hurts,triggers, quirks, etc. *I* am real, too, and have the same things. It is human, not bad. I finally am in the home stretch with the "bad" concept.
 We are all "bad' b/c "bad" is " human" .
  The board IS safe(IME). Dr G does not let it go too far,even though it may appear that way, at times. He lets people work out their problems, with their own minds and gives them the dignity to speak. When it is spinning too much, he steps in.
 For me, my problem was needing too much safety from the world b/c I was not safe ,inside. I have not gotten safe ,inside myself yet, but am a little closer.I am seeing that fights, dissension and anger directed at me will not kill me.  MY response is all I am responsible for.It is a peace to begin to know  where I end and s/one else begins, what are my emotions and what are s/one elses.
 We are all struggling here and bound to get in to fights b/c we are hurting and talking about pain.
 When I look outside my door, it is the same as the board, in groups and with individuals.
 Now, I want to look inside myself, which I have been afraid to do. I need to face what is really in there. I need to own it.Then, I can chose what to act on and what to keep inside.
I think that is how "normal" people mature. I could not have my own thoughts and feelings b/c I was told they were bad. Now, I will own them and chose my actions.This must be an early teen lesson, about the time I stopped maturing .
 I feel like I am unfreezing and can think and reason for the first time ,since I was a teen.
 I feel like the tin man in Wizard of Oz ,when they oiled him.
 It really IS OK to think all my thoughts and feel all  my feelings. I must or I will be triggered by others and that is where problems can start.
 I am glad to be on the board.
 I think it is safe .        Love   Ami


 
             

[darren]

Thankyou for the responses!  I don't really get my childhood memories or pain triggered by what goes on here, and if I did I would consider it a good thing.  Getting in touch with those feelings again would do me a lot of good.  I'm glad to have found a lot of wise people who share many of the same views I do because I sometimes feel all alone in how I perceive things, which makes me feel a bit crazy. 

For now though, it just seems like there are a lot of people out there in the world who just want to create conflict and nothing else.  The hardest thing about it, after dealing with my ex, is that its hard to recognize when somebody may be doing it on purpose.  I can't tell the difference between the good people who make mistakes, and the malicious ones who have bad intentions. 

I do appreciate everyone sharing their stories with me... its nice to have things in common with people even if they are bad things.  They best thing is just opening up and having people knowing exactly what I'm talking about. 

Thanks too, Leah.  That information is very helpful, and I understand it %100 percent.  I couldn't begin to say how bad I was.  I was angry, and I was a victim, and I got stuck there for the longest time.  I beat the worst of it, but I really do need to foucus and catch myself doing some of those other things.  Breaking out of irrational thinking is something I need to get better at.   That info reminds me of a website I was using a while back but lost interest in.  It was like online cognitive behavioral therapy... just teaching you to recognize all those unhealthy ways of thinking.  One day I kinda woke up and noticed that my worst abuser was myself, and I was amazed at all of the crap I let myself believe in. 

[towrite]

Darren - your post was so strong and true. I'm so glad you wrote all of that -- and took a risk. My family didn't fight, except for my parents. Us kids were not allowed to say a word nor express anger or disagreement. And, like you, we got treated cruelly when one parent was angry or frustrated with the other. As an adult, I know my NF was sexually frustrated w/my NM and he took care of it by beating the h*ll out of my brother and me.