Author Topic: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation  (Read 3672 times)

lighter

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Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« on: June 10, 2008, 06:19:00 PM »

 
"Why would I help someone who was so self assured and didn't seem needy.....?"


(paraphrased, of course)

The first thing I thought of was dysfunctional families,
 where the parents keep the weak children weak,
and make the strong children stronger.

I read about that phenomenon in the book, THE MILLIONAIR NEXT DOOR, several years back.

The example that came to me was of a friend....

who went on to become a surgeon....

while his parents kept the baby of the family, his little sister, completely dependant and needy.

I'm sure his parents thought they were doing her a great favor.

There were distinctly different rules for each child. 

Does bean have different rules, with regard to her feelings about "helping" "self assured vs needy" posters too? 

I digress..... the surgeon's parents forced him to employ his sister at his office, for years after he got out of medl school. 

It cost him other employees, bc his sister couldn't control herself and caused conflicts he could do nothing about, without causing family discord.

He finally drew a boundary and asked her to leave. 

It was a huge family upset but he refused to be leveraged further, and that was that. 
He had to run an office and support his family, including 5 children.

Now, the parents pay for her apartment, food, because she won't go out into the world and seek other employment.  She'd have to learn social skills, grow and learn to problem solve.

Though that might broaden her horizons, do her good to "carve her own niche" her parents wouldn't think of making her do that.  Taking responsibility for herself, in other words.

She's not disabled, except by their "help."

How is that "helping?" 

Any thoughts?

Lighter

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2008, 09:09:45 PM »
This is true, bean.

I haven't asked you directly for help.

All I would ever ask you for, directly, is your honest opinion, based on fact, so I have the benefit of your POV.

You've addressed me on an adult level....

so I ask you, directly, for clarity.

What did you mean when you asked.....

"Why would I help someone who seemed to self assured, and not needy?"

Lighter


lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2008, 09:13:01 PM »
: )  YVW Bean

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2008, 09:14:24 PM »
OK....

what is your definition of "help" when you were asking that question?

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2008, 09:24:40 PM »
When I read that....

I felt you were saying you would support a needy person, no matter what the facts were, bc that was your heart.

It hurt me to think that someone who carries themselves without the victim mantel, would be prejudiced against... bc they don't seem needy.

Does that make sense?

I also think everyone here, has been a victim and victimized.... even if they don't wear it on their sleeve.

Lighter



lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2008, 09:54:12 PM »
But you wouldn't condemn a self assured person....

just bc a needy person asked you to.... as a form of help?

Right?

Lighter

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2008, 01:27:30 PM »
I heard you, Bean.

I'm learning lessons about making direct statements, with regard to unflattering behavior,  or behavior I interpret as unflattering.

I understand how my frustration, and humorous taunts caused shined an unflattering light on myself.

Though I felt better for having said what I felt in a manner that left no uncertainty. 

It wasn't kind or right or helpful..... but my goal was to be heard and I'm still working on that.

I see more value in CB and Hop's gentle, overtly empathetic communication styles....

though at the time.....

I was confused by what I deemed "pussy footing around the issue."

Now I'm confused again..... if we can't directly make an observation, but must talk around it, leaving the unflattering observation veiled in empathy.... how is that direct?

Oh dear.

I'm not sure how to speak directly, about an unflattering observation, and not cause more trouble, as opposed to shed light.

How do we shed light, without causing collateral damage?

Sincerely,

Lighter


changing

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2008, 03:58:43 PM »
Hi Bean-

At times an elaborate architecture requires complicated engineering, deep study , pages of calcs and several stages of plan check.

Best,

Changes
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 04:04:00 PM by changing »

sKePTiKal

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2008, 04:14:39 PM »
Tell me to butt out, if I'm not helping...

to translate for Bean, I think what Lighter's asking is how can a person make a "constructive criticism" honestly - without being seen as attacking, abusive, etc. These can be simple, honest observations - yet in some situations, they are seen as inflammatory - pouring salt in a wound.

It's something I struggle with too. Hard to know the level of trust and acceptance with the other person for these kinds of observations, especially online. I think it's safe to say, there has to be some level of trust between two people, before these kinds of things can be said - without said observation causing a huge disruption of the relationship.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2008, 05:40:12 PM »
Hey bean....

I'm a touchy feely artist, sorry.

I'll shorten it up for you.

How do I manage to be direct.....

when the observation I'm making is, in itself, unflattering?

Can I manage to be direct, without having my motives, judged and perhaps villianized?

If so, how?

Does that make sense?

Lighter


sKePTiKal

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2008, 10:53:27 AM »
Lighter, I've been thinking about this and almost started a brand-new thread... but it IS on topic, so here goes...

We - all of us - whether abused previously or traumatized or not - need to be able to accept the observation & perceptions of others about ourselves, as a form of important feedback. To not allow this - especially when constructively critical or unflattering - is IMO, controlling. Silencing others - lalalalalalalalalaaa.... fingers in ears denial.

Allowing people to provide this kind of feedback to us (especially while healing) still leaves open the opportunity to speak up for ourselves in regard to the expressed observation or perception or opinion: disagree, bring out examples to support our point of view, explain - and explore within and decide for ourselves whether there MIGHT be some truth to expressed opinion or criticism or not.... that we are blind to. Other people's perceptions & observations are based on our BEHAVIOR - not who we, inside, ARE. Ultimately, only we can decide who we ARE - but other people are a very important feedback system on what we DO. Those of us with flawed parenting distrust and fear other's feedback a lot - because we didn't have POSITIVE feedback...we need to learn to allow this feedback and consider it seriously.

So, what I understand about this now is that if I believe the other person will hear me out - and keep an open mind about it - maybe use the perception/observation to help themselves... then I will offer it. But if they demonstrate to me that they have their fingers in their ears - it serves no purpose other than letting me get something off my chest - to say it. And usually - this is met with return aggression, accusations of cruelty, abuse... so I must weigh the risk involved to myself; and the capability of the other person's openmindedness about themselves.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2008, 06:48:34 PM »
OK... Amber.

It's sort'a like deciding whether to let your waiter know that you didn't enjoy your meal?

You only tell if you care that the restaurant improves and stays in business.

If you don't care, or you're holding a grudge over a soggy chilcheeseiburger.....

you say nothing....

bc is't easier?

Same with people?

Now....

We can't always know that our goodwill observations, extended in an effort to help.....

will be attacked with fog and bluster.

Ouch, but lesson learned, no?


As Carolyn says.... "we know what we have by the response we receive.:"

In that case, extending ourselves... (read that as extending further supply)

is a waste of good observation, isn't it?

Lighter

Still haven't gotten it straight... but working on it.

sKePTiKal

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2008, 09:28:30 AM »
I think you're closing in on it, Lighter...

Yes, you do tell the waiter if you care that the restaurant improves itself.
But, you also care about your experience - better service, warm, not cold food...

It's possible to care about both at the same time.

Not saying something doesn't mean you don't care, though. If you've had a previous experience where the waiter dumped water on your head, because you asked for something to be taken back... you might care enough about yourself, to not risk that experience again... if it were the same waiter.
Success is never final, failure is never fatal.

Gaining Strength

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2008, 11:24:15 PM »
Quote
How do I manage to be direct.....

when the observation I'm making is, in itself, unflattering?

I don't understand why you feel the need to be direct when the observation is unflattering and unwanted.  Just because you happen to choose to participate in the same forum that others happen to participate in does not mean therefore that everyone on the forum simply has to be a target of your unflattering observation.

(anonymous)

lighter

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Re: Beans curiouse statement on another thread: an observation
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2008, 11:46:31 PM »
I'm about certain we have a NC in place SS.

I'll say it again, please stop posting to me.

Lighter