Author Topic: When Words Won't Work  (Read 4632 times)

Certain Hope

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When Words Won't Work
« on: June 25, 2008, 11:20:09 AM »

Dealing With Your Abuser: When Words Won't Work, by Dr. Irene        http://www.drirene.com/when_words.htm

"How To Deal With An Abuser Without Getting Defensive"
teaches victims to stop defending themselves verbally, a variation of approval-seeking - and begin to take responsibility for themselves.
For example, in response to "You're too sensitive,"
the victim might answer, "Yes. Respect it."
instead of "No I'm not...explanation, explanation."

Not defending yourself verbally is about disengaging.
You take responsibility for yourself when you don't allow the other person to push your buttons and "make you" react.
No one "makes you" do anything! You react because you haven't yet cultivated more effective, verbal and cognitive skills.


When someone "pushes your buttons," they have simply extended you an invitation to participate in an interaction.
Plainly, they've baited you!
But you don't have to buy into it. Disengage!
Ellis and Lange's How To Keep People From Pushing Your Buttons, is a wonderful book that systematically teaches you how to disengage.

There are times words won't work/are not appropriate:

*  when your situation is dangerous 
*  when you haven't yet developed the right underlying attitude and skills to pull it off 
*  when your situation is too far gone.   

Clearly, if you are in any kind of physical danger, do not incite your abuser by standing up to him or her verbally. Have a safety plan prepared ahead of time if you have fear or there is any history of violence. (Better safe than sorry!)

Words won't work when you don't have the right attitude. If you haven't yet reached the point where you recognize that it is OK to be sensitive, for example, your abuser's next statement will make you fold.
Monday morning quarterback these situations and play back what you said. Experiment with what you could have said.
Doing these exercises will help you develop the appropriate cognitive (thinking) and verbal skills you will need to verbally disengage and/or stand up to your abuser.
Suzette Haden Elgin's You Can't Say That To Me!  will give you ideas regarding what kinds of comments another may make that are inappropriate and how to handle them.

Words also won't work when your situation has gone too far. **  You have already lost all your negotiating power when your abuser is telling you to leave, or is overly disrespectful.
You will see some examples of situations I feel have gone too far in my replies to the posts in standing up to your abuser.

What do I do when words won't work?

Well, there are few choices left.
The most effective method I know for regaining your power, let alone your self-esteem - is to back off.
Backing off can mean anything from walking out and filing for divorce to seriously thinking about leaving and making your plans,
to going to mom's for a week, to taking a walk around the block to chill, to caring less because you recognize your powerlessness over your partner.

Backing off is what relatively healthy people - who take care of themselves emotionally - instinctively do when confronted with others who hurt them.

Think: Would you hold your hand over an open fire? Of course not. You would remove your hand immediately!
Unfortunately, the codependent mind-set too often operates along the lines of keeping your hand in the fire because you need the warmth and hope the fire will recognize how much you care and stop burning you. Fat chance!

Learning to disengage and exhibit assertive verbal behavior will not fix your marriage, though some marriages may improve.
These skills will increase your personal power: you will feel better about yourself and your increased sense of control over your life.
********************************************************************************************************************


** My own note - imo, "the situation has gone too far" - immediately, from the get go - when dealing with a pathological narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, or any other path without a conscience. With such individuals, words are made to be twisted... and "no" is simply an invitation to search for more devious ways to enforce their own "yes".

Carolyn

dandylife

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2008, 01:04:36 PM »
This sort of thing happened to me yesterday! My (BPD) partner had been out of town over the weekend, and returned a little early Monday morning. Which was fine, but I had planned to let our son have a play date with a friend mine who lives a distance away (40 mins.) so there would be a drive back and forth. I told him he could play from 11 am to 4 pm so I would avoid the bulk of traffic.

My partner was appalled at my “bad planning”. “No one makes plans to pick up their kid that close to rush hour!” Huh?

I also had put out packages for the mailman to pick up. Normally, I am here and he can just ring the bell. But since I was going to be in and out, I put the packages out on the front porch. Apparently, I put an envelope on top of the packages not realizing it was there. Again, I got, “I cannot believe you would put an envelope on top of the packages! What if it had blown away? My God!”

So, what stemmed from all of this, was a confusing, weird, strange, convoluted conversation that felt very weird to me.

And it was all done via email because we have a person working for us and it would have been bad if we were arguing out loud in front of her!

So, it’s kinda fortunate that I have it all in email!

It ended up that I got sucked into the game at first, defending my choices and trying to explain why I did what I did.

Then, it occurred to me (because of our meta-communication discussion on the Board!) that there was more to this (a deeper level). He in the past has accused me of cheating (or wanting to for goodness sake - just because of a "feeling" he got). I thought maybe the same thing was happening here and he really wanted to know if I had been planning to cheat on him! And I responded with this email:


I'd rather not communicate on this level. Why not just ask the real question? You don't really care that I "left a letter outside" or that I "scheduled something too close to rush hour". You are wondering if....._______.

Please just ask it. Don't do this merry little dance. Just ask.

I get the communication between the communication.

If we can just talk and get the real messages to each other that we want, that's what matters.

Like:

I want you to be able to get a good night's sleep before you come home from your trips and not feel like you have to race home to check on me.

I want you to trust me when I am out in my car, running errands, bringing  (our son) here and there. I don't have an outside agenda. There's nothing to be suspicious of.

When either of us is feeling insecure it would be nice to have a safe place to discuss it. The way to create a safe space is to just ask, not plant some weird suggestions that "something weird" is going on. Please just ask.

Thank you.

I love you.




He responded by saying that he wanted to only talk about his feelings, which didn’t make sense to me ( maybe he just wanted to be “heard”?) But from then on, it was much easier to communicate with him. We were able to work it out.

Very interesting thread, very “real-life” applicable! Thanks!

Dandylife
"All things not at peace will cry out." Han Yun

"He who angers you conquers you." - Elizabeth Kenny

Certain Hope

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2008, 02:21:09 PM »
Oh, Dandy... I remember those conversations just like it was yesterday.

You have a tremendous amount of patience!

And it sounds like you're being met at least part-way....
not only are you willing to read between the lines,
but your partner is willing to let you.

That's not always the case, as the ability to read between can sometimes stir up even more anger in the other.

Glad this helped! And very glad you were able to reach some steadier ground on which to communicate with him.

Carolyn

changing

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2008, 05:22:27 PM »
Thank you Hope. Backing off can mean great losses at times, but sometimes it is the right  (corrected ) only appropriate thing to do...

Love,

Changing
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 05:26:39 PM by changing »

Certain Hope

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2008, 05:41:19 PM »
Thank you Hope. Backing off can mean great losses at times, but sometimes it is the right  (corrected ) only appropriate thing to do...

Love,

Changing

((((((((Changing))))))))  yes, sometimes it is.   Thank you.

Love,
Carolyn

lighter

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #5 on: June 26, 2008, 07:29:09 PM »

Dealing With Your Abuser: When Words Won't Work, by Dr. Irene        http://www.drirene.com/when_words.htm

"How To Deal With An Abuser Without Getting Defensive"
teaches victims to stop defending themselves verbally, a variation of approval-seeking - and begin to take responsibility for themselves.
For example, in response to "You're too sensitive,"
the victim might answer, "Yes. Respect it."
instead of "No I'm not...explanation, explanation."

Not defending yourself verbally is about disengaging.
You take responsibility for yourself when you don't allow the other person to push your buttons and "make you" react.
No one "makes you" do anything! You react because you haven't yet cultivated more effective, verbal and cognitive skills.


When someone "pushes your buttons," they have simply extended you an invitation to participate in an interaction.
Plainly, they've baited you!
But you don't have to buy into it. Disengage!
Ellis and Lange's How To Keep People From Pushing Your Buttons, is a wonderful book that systematically teaches you how to disengage.

There are times words won't work/are not appropriate:

*  when your situation is dangerous 
*  when you haven't yet developed the right underlying attitude and skills to pull it off 
*  when your situation is too far gone.   

Clearly, if you are in any kind of physical danger, do not incite your abuser by standing up to him or her verbally. Have a safety plan prepared ahead of time if you have fear or there is any history of violence. (Better safe than sorry!)

Words won't work when you don't have the right attitude. If you haven't yet reached the point where you recognize that it is OK to be sensitive, for example, your abuser's next statement will make you fold.
Monday morning quarterback these situations and play back what you said. Experiment with what you could have said.
Doing these exercises will help you develop the appropriate cognitive (thinking) and verbal skills you will need to verbally disengage and/or stand up to your abuser.
Suzette Haden Elgin's You Can't Say That To Me!  will give you ideas regarding what kinds of comments another may make that are inappropriate and how to handle them.

Words also won't work when your situation has gone too far. **  You have already lost all your negotiating power when your abuser is telling you to leave, or is overly disrespectful.
You will see some examples of situations I feel have gone too far in my replies to the posts in standing up to your abuser.

What do I do when words won't work?

Well, there are few choices left.
The most effective method I know for regaining your power, let alone your self-esteem - is to back off.
Backing off can mean anything from walking out and filing for divorce to seriously thinking about leaving and making your plans,
to going to mom's for a week, to taking a walk around the block to chill, to caring less because you recognize your powerlessness over your partner.

Backing off is what relatively healthy people - who take care of themselves emotionally - instinctively do when confronted with others who hurt them.

Think: Would you hold your hand over an open fire? Of course not. You would remove your hand immediately!
Unfortunately, the codependent mind-set too often operates along the lines of keeping your hand in the fire because you need the warmth and hope the fire will recognize how much you care and stop burning you. Fat chance!

Learning to disengage and exhibit assertive verbal behavior will not fix your marriage, though some marriages may improve.
These skills will increase your personal power: you will feel better about yourself and your increased sense of control over your life.
********************************************************************************************************************


** My own note - imo, "the situation has gone too far" - immediately, from the get go - when dealing with a pathological narcissist, sociopath, psychopath, or any other path without a conscience. With such individuals, words are made to be twisted... and "no" is simply an invitation to search for more devious ways to enforce their own "yes".

Carolyn



Beared repeating and.....

bless you Carloyn....

you're posting directly to my heart lately.

Lighter

Certain Hope

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2008, 12:12:43 PM »
Dear Lighter,

Here's an article you might appreciate for your little ones... re: prevention of bullying in the classroom.

http://www.myparentime.com/articles/08/articleS684.shtml

I'm reviewing it with my son, who is one of the smaller boys in his age-group. Although he's quite well liked at school, he's asked me about some encounters he's had on the bus, for instance, where a much larger child (even a couple girls and kids younger than he!) have gotten pushy with him.

We signed him up for mixed martial arts training, as well, as a confidence booster... and it's helping. Last night he received his high-white belt. Only the beginning, but I can already see the difference. When his teacher called him up front to receive his new belt, he used the wrong last name (my married name). My son stood there for a moment and corrected him, giving his correct last name. I was amazed! Before, his shyness may not have allowed him to set that straight.

Anyhow, hope you like the article.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S.  This one is just plain cute... lol    http://204.15.15.32/videoserver/video.php?clip=CCNT2049
It's Dr. Henry Cloud, co-author of the Boundaries books, in a short video.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 12:19:18 PM by Certain Hope »

nogadge

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2008, 04:20:03 PM »
Wow, reading this I remember using your examples without consciencely knowing how or why I chose to.  It's a relief to find out my self preservation instincts have stayed with me when I felt I had become total lost to myself.  Nogadge

gjazz

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2008, 04:53:26 PM »
Ditto what's been said here.  My NF constantly manipulated his family members into defending/explaining themselves.  It was a hard habit to break, having grown up with it.  He was especially fond of starting conversations with directives, such as "YOU think..."  Telling me ahead what I believed, so that the rest of the maneuver would go according to plan (he spends hours imagining how conversations will progress, so he can redirect if necessary).  One of the worst things we could do was reply with "I don't think that..." because he'd have a long list of examples/"evidence" and require an explanation for each, trying to confuse and confound his targets.  He was also, however, fond of saying "huh," in a disbelieving tone when someone tried to express themselves.  Recently he called, drunk, and started with the accusations.  When he was done I said, "huh."  He said, "Huh?  What does huh mean?"  I said, "the same thing it meant all the times you said it to me." 

Certain Hope

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2008, 05:25:48 PM »
Hi, Nogadge,

Glad you are recognizing that you do have some healthy crud-resistance within you!
I always had a love for stuff that makes sense. NPD arguments and contrived defenses make zero sense, so my eagerness to figure it out is what spared me a complete breakdown, I think. But I never, ever had an awareness of some of the most basic human rights which I should have been exercising.

Hello, Gjazz,

You've described something very familiar, yes. Trying to talk with a manipulator... where you are supposed to explain every jot and tittle, but he is allowed to take giant leaps of logic AND presume to be able to read your mind. Sickening. I'm sorry you're still being exposed to this junk, but maybe it's healing to be able to give him a dose of his own medicine... I don't know.

Carolyn

gjazz

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2008, 06:13:53 PM »
For me, what's healing is not fearing him.  Looking back, so much energy was spent preparing to defend myself.  But it took me a long time and much distance to get free of it, and I still have twinges.  Because he has learned I won't play anymore--I absolutely, 100% NEVER explain myself to him, nor do I share important information about my life with him--he has largely backed off.  The subsequent challenge is not becoming defensive or fearful when other people ask personal questions, or question my choices or decisions.  It's a trust issue for me now, and trust still isn't my strong suit.

Certain Hope

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2008, 08:20:58 PM »
Gjazz,

I understand.

I can tell anyone just about anything about myself personally...
but explaining to them why I think a certain way or my reasoning for choosing a particular route... no, I must reserve that for intimate relationships.

My mother is the one in my life who always demanded explanations and wanted to know what was my "plan".
On the flip side, she hated it when I'd try to explain myself to someone she viewed as a competitor... like... my husband.

Here on this board, I've found folks who are willing to genuinely listen and help me to think things through... without casting judgment every step of the way.
Learning discretion in making choices re: this sharing is what takes time and practice, in my experience.
At first, it was such a relief to have some listening ears that I'd just splat it all out there on the table and make a royal mess.
Not too wise... but I guess that's what I had to go through in order to begin to learn to choose more wisely.

My mother is very elderly now and often I still feel bad/guilty for having removed her from the loop of my life.... but I'll live much more peacefully with that bit of guilt than if I re-opened myself to the sort of bludgeoning which I know she is still very capable of giving. So... I guess it's all about getting more experience with weighing the pros and cons. I'm very glad that I've shared what I have here... but it's alot more difficult in 3-D, where you have to see the look in peoples' eyes that tells you that you shared too much.
Does get easier, though.

Carolyn


gjazz

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 08:45:19 PM »
I know what you mean about feeling bad/guilty about having removed a now-elderly parent from the loop of your life.  I feel it too.  And the truth is, he's  better now than he used to be.  He even apologized (as must as he'll ever be able) a couple years ago by saying, "I'm trying to figure out who I was back then."  But alas, he always reverts.  So I had to decide: him or me.  I still see him a few times a year.  He's still the outwardly charming, outsized personality guy with expensive toys he always was.  But he can't change fundamentally any more than a tiger can change its stripes.  And I know what you are saying about sharing carefully.  I read a great deal here, before I engage.

Certain Hope

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2008, 09:01:24 PM »
Oh, my,

Gjazz, not long ago, I would have jumped over the moon to hear my mother express even the slightest indication that there is a remote possibility she might have been clueless at some point in history...
thanks for reminding me that it would still not really change a thing.

My ex-husband was a much more obvious NPD'd individual than my mother and he seemed more aware of his issues than my mother ever has. I mean, there were a few (rare) occasions when he was capable of appearing at least a little bit humbled.

Do you ever feel like you should reach a point where this shouldn't bother you anymore... ? I do. Often. But I just don't think it's possible to remain human and undisturbed by this sort of behavior/attitude within an intimate relationship. I really don't.  (sorry about all the "shoulds", but that is how I hear it in my own head)

Carolyn

gjazz

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Re: When Words Won't Work
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2008, 10:49:44 PM »
Well, I should give you some background: my father once tried to murder my mother in a certain way.  A few years ago there was a sensational murder (husband against wife) in the news for months, and it happened that my cousin was a close friend of the couple and testified.  So we were all talking about this murder when my father and his current wife were here, and he became very uncomfortable, and the subsequent, immediate private "admission" of his past behaviors had to do, I believe, with fear someone would mention to his wife what he did to my mother.  Which is a long way of saying: it was all just crocodile tears. 

That said, I have to tell you very honestly: I still have fits of rage at the way my father behaved.  But very, very rarely.  It used to consume me.  In my twenties I could barely control it, and put all my energy into work.  I thought it would haunt me forever.  Not true.  The deeply emotional responses, having been experienced long and hard, are gone.  I think about it.  I've researched his background--he was a product of his environment, the wealthy, favored, pampered, proverbial Golden Child. I understand it.   But I'm MOSTLY past hurting about it.  I remember once telling myself: you walked away physically when you had to.  Walk away mentally now.  To the best of my admittedly imperfect ability, that's what I've done.  But I wouldn't be here at all if there wasn't residual pain and frustration.