Weekend

[LilyCat]

Thanks again, everyone, for your good wishes. Right now you are my most immediate community, and you are all so helpful and understanding and caring.

Service

Everything was fine with my cousin's service, if you can say that about a funeral. Nearly all my cousins were there (two live far away) and it was really good to see them. We really are more like siblings or friends than cousins. I can't say that they are open emotionally -- it would be hard to talk as we do here or with my friends -- but we're always there for each other, especially at times like this. We have a real bond, and that is very nice. We have a lot of fun together.

Once again, though, it was extremely hard for me to be in church. It just is, these days. I thought being far away and in a different denomination and purpose would alleviate much of it, but it didn't. The pastor used a scripture that happened to be the text to an anthem we had sung last year; it is a beautiful musical setting, and singing with the N pastor is one of my very fondest memories; possibly the fondest, not sure. So it was REALLY hard to hear that. I had never heard the text before, and now I seem to encounter it regularly. I always ache when I hear it; I hear the anthem and it brings me to tears.

And I felt very detached, disassociated, as I do in church these days. I used to feel such joy when I sang, whether a hymn or an anthem (even prior to the N experience). These days I have to just put on my professional musician cap and "perform" my way through them. It's a totally different musical and spiritual experience.

Ugh. A pastor is definitely not supposed to have that effect on you.

There was a lunch afterwards, and everything lightened up, as I knew it would. We cousins just sit around and have fun. Interesting turn of conversation: my one cousin started a conversation in which she said she didn't keep a journal because she figured she wouldn't like what she read years later, and that she didn't want a record of her innermost thoughts and feelings lying around. This is exactly why I don't keep one, when I would really like to.

My cousin's older brother (also my cousin and the oldest of us all) and I were the last to leave the building. He's just a great guy, and he said that being with his cousins was his therapy. I told him we all knew that, and loved him. It was really a nice, honest moment.

Told my brother-in-law off

Not surprisingly, my BIL was a jerk. Not that day, but the next. Not sure if it was that evening or the next morning -- I think that evening -- he and I were alone in the living room at my dad's house. He started in -- you two need a plan. When are you going to sell this house? Do you want to pay heating bills for another winter? yadayadayada. I give him a grunt or something at the first comment or so; but then I finally just yelled at him "Why are you even bringing this up?" It shut him up. I wish I had had the presence of mind to add "because it's none of your business."

The next morning he started in with similar comments when my sister was in the room with us, except that he was worse and more adamant, etc. I controlled my tongue for a moment, but she just shot back at him that it was hard when you live x miles away and can only come up on weekends, then got up and walked out of the room, back up to the attic where we were working. I did the same. I thought it was a definite statement that the  two of us got up and walked away.

Then in the early afternoon they decided to go out for lunch. I tried to explain that almost everything shuts down on the 4th up there; that dad had tried to find someplace "fun" to go and everything was always closed.

He jumped right back at me -- "Where's fun up here? You tell me where's there's a fun place to eat." Maybe another comment or two along those lines.

At first I tried to explain to him that they were fun to dad, maybe they weren't everyone's cup of tea.

But then he just kept at it, so after about three more sentences I just yelled at him, "BACK OFF!!"  He said he wasn't trying to be rude, that he would ask that of their friends that they go out with up there.

Maybe he wasn't trying, but he sure was!!

My only mistake was that several minutes later when we were outside in the yard, alone, and I was getting ready to leave (they were driving to lunch in their car) I went over and apologized to him. And I was so upset at having gotten angry, and feeling so lousy these days anyway, that I was quite tearful. I thought a little honesty would help, so I tried to say that it wasn't him, that someone had really f___ me over and I wasn't myself these days -- but I couldn't spit it out, quite. I was a mess in front of him -- and he just started at me, blankly. I'm sure he thinks I'm just nuts. This is a man who has totally no emotional realm at all. He's a bully and arrogant and highly judgemental of everyone and everything that isn't related to him by blood. (Except my sister.)

So, THAT was unpleasant. I was really unnerved by getting angry at him. I could barely get myself back together again; it was hard to go to lunch with them. (I don't think my sister heard the apology part. She would have heard the "back off.")

I was really, really upset at all this. He deserved it, but it is so hard for me to get angry and tell people off. And, the guy just pushes all the "Dad" buttons. My sister definitely married my father, without any of his good points! At least my dad had a heart and was good to other people. Not this one! I doubt he's ever done anything nice for a non-relative in his life, unless it would get him somewhere.

Saw the pastoral counselor

Went Saturday morning to see the pastoral counselor. She is really a therapist -- that's how she approaches things -- and I liked her. We had some business to take care of, the usual, and of course she had a few questions about my background. I started to tell her the N story but we didn't have a whole heck of a lot of time, and I was quite chatty. Gave her a lot of church background (even on the pastor prior to this). Wish I had been more "conceptual."

She asked how she could help me, and I said I really sought her ought for help with the spiritual end of things, not so much the psychological. But I think it's great that she has both perspectives, I really do. I think she's probably a good therapist. She just said some things that I liked. She said I was doing the right thing by being in group all these years, that it was very important to have community like that when you suffer from depression. She was impressed by my "roots" in both this and church.

It's nice to have someone who really understands and comes from the church thing, too.

Don't know how long I can see her, she's really expensive -- $150 a visit. My insurance will pay half (I'm hoping!) but that's still too much money. She contracts with new clients for 4 visits, then they/we decide whether to continue. That sounded good to me; I thought it would probably take 3-4 visits before I met her to clear up the spiritual mess; I'd like to continue on a therapeutic basis but probably won't be able to. Liked her, though!

We didn't get into it enough for me to get any spiritual insight. I think I'm going to take a different tact next week and give her the "big picture" first -- what he did.

Guilt

The rest of my weekend was not good. I am really in solid despair these days. I wouldn't even call it depression. It's despair, and fear, and hurt, and confusion.

Something else is going on, and it lead me to realize that I feel a tremendous amount of guilt over the N thing. I think deep down I still believe he's right. I don't think I mentioned this, but in the meeting following his first set of charges (which were less formally handled) I was asked to sign a letter acknowledging that I had sent this one email (saying how I found him attractive, but it was SOOOOOOOOOO innocent. I only talked in terms of men wearing oxford cloth shirts, and how I found it attractive when he wore one; and I was trying to boost his ego, anyway, not harass him) and promising not to do anything like that again, basically. Essentially I was threatened with the loss of my choir and church membership if I failed to sign it. I had not expected this when I agreed to come to the meeting; I thought it was just going to be a verbal promise in front of the others. I had no idea I was going to be made to sign something. It has been a horrible thing to deal with; i was always afraid afterward that he would whip it out and threaten to use it against me whenever he wished; I was terrified of him for a long time. That's one of the reasons I was never alone with him. That letter gave him complete control over me. It was horrifying.

To get back to the guilt -- at some point last fall my therapist said he finally understood why I had signed that letter, because I felt guilty. I had no sense of this at the time and still didn't until last week. Now I know how guilty I feel. Oh geez. It is very, very deep. I have been seeking ways to officially pronounce myself guilty ever since. This is not good. I'm in serious trouble.

This is what this man has set in motion. I just get deeper and deeper and deeper into bad "stuff" (feelings) because of my experience with him.

I'm at this very bad and confusing place, where I feel I've made a big mistake with my therapy, I don't know what's true anymore or whom to trust; I feel like my whole life has been a waste; I don't feel competent to deal with it or change it.

And, part of it is this whole conundrum of that, in trying to change, I also feel so unworthy -- as if I'm not good enough in and of myself. I'm including this because it was a comment someone made to me on another board (she was saying that the N was trying to "steal my truth away from me," that I am enough and always was enough, regardless of how my parents or the N treated me.)

...I had some interruptions while I was writing this last part, so I feel sort of detached from it, and like it was pretty cerebral.

Don't know how to end this, so I just am.

Oh, and top it all off, I think I have to keep Fester inside now. My neighbor said something to me last night (she said she wasn't/hadn't complained, and that he didn't bother her, but you know how those things go. Although she certainly lets the dog people have a piece of her mind with no problem.) It was one of the few things that's been giving me pleasure (to say nothing of him!) -- seeing him enjoying himself, lying outside on my step sunning himself.

Oh -- and I dropped my window air conditioner out the second floor window by mistake. I was trying to take it out of the window and it fell! Highly embarrassing, although I don't think anyone saw it. Not too worried about the unit. It was cheap. Not a great loss. My central air is working now so I don't need it.

Yawn! Long post. Thanks for hanging in there.

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lily,

One of the best things that ever happened in my life was getting shook loose from everything that "church" used to mean to me.

I'm so sorry that you're suffering through this and I know that it's quite a shock to the system, really. It's like getting the rug pulled clean out from under you and often there's no going back to the way it used to be. What I'm saying is that is not necessarily a bad thing.
Sometimes we have to lose what we thought was good in order to find something better.

About your brother in law...
I don't think it's a bad thing to apologize for yelling or making a scene. It's probably a very good and decent, honest thing to do, if you felt that you acted inappropriately. But that doesn't mean it was wrong to be angry at him, you know?
That's just another of my more recent lessons. At times, we definitely should be angry and say so!
It's how we convey that which might need improvement... and practice... and apologies along the way, as we learn.

And I think I must have missed something in your past descriptions of what happened with the previous pastor.
He accused you of harassment... after he came on to you? I'm not sure whether I really got the picture there, but no matter what you said about him and his oxford shirt, I sure can't see any reason for you to be feeling guilty! He's a big boy and he could have chosen to be quite direct with you, face to face, at any time and that would have been the sum total of it.

You wrote:

This is what this man has set in motion. I just get deeper and deeper and deeper into bad "stuff" (feelings) because of my experience with him.

((((((Lily)))))) I know this part so well. It's okay. You'll come through it... really, you will. Some of those feelings have probably been buried for a very long time and this stuff has brought them to the surface. No matter what, it's better to bring them out into the open now where they can't simmer and stew any longer.

Love,
Carolyn

P.S.  Sounds like Fester might need a leash? At least he could still sit on the step and sun himself... if he'd stay put.
ooxo

[LilyCat]

Thanks, Carolyn, so much. (As always.)

I know it's not necessarily a bad thing, but boy, is it hard. I know I'll get the church thing back. It's just a matter of working through all this. I always had it in an appropriate place and in an appropriate way. In going through the second set of charges especially, I have seen what wonderful people really are members of my church, and my friends. That part of it was a very powerful, positive experience. It's what enabled me to come back. So, perhaps instead of changing it in some way, it will validate the value of what I already have. I truly do not think I would have been treated as well or compassionately in many other places.

My BIL deserved my anger, but since he did say he wasn't trying to be rude, I apologized. It seems like caving in, though. But you and I think alike -- it's never a bad thing to apologize.


Yes, he (the pastor) did. In all honesty, I have to tell you that he never misplaced a hand or did anything physically inappropriate (and I very clearly told the investigating committee this) -- except he kissed me on the lips once at the very end -- or said anything inappropriate; he was very careful. (Obviously experienced.) He always knew to the exact "T" where and how far he could go, without having anything I could really prove. There was never anything I could have probably legally done about it -- but he was pursuing me. It looked like romantic pursuing at the time -- infatuation -- but now that I know about NPD, I guess he was pursuing me for N supply. Who knows? How would you know the difference unless you were experienced with NPD?

BUT -- that said, the kiss was wrong (and manipulative) and any hint of flirting or romance from a pastor is wrong and considered a professional violation. (Never seems to stop them.)

It's a very long and complex story. He was idealizing me the whole time. It looked like he was in love. He couldn't physically stay away from me. He seemed to need/have to be physically close to me -- and I mean close! Long story, WAY too many subtle details. But suffice it to say, the people who investigated the second, more formal and important set of charges, believed what was going on. I gave them a 26-page documentation of as many instances as I could think of, of what he did, and talked to them for 3-1/2 hours. (That must be a record!) That's why they ordered him to never attempt to contact me again. I also told them how afraid of him I was at that point.

My music director also had seen things -- more than I ever guessed -- and told the committee prior to my ever talking with them. I had also kept him (Music director) somewhat informed, again, so that when the time was right (ha, ha) I would have a witness who could verify that everything was on the up-and-up -- that while we had feelings for each other, we hadn't acted on them.

And your "big boy" comment is exactly the point. It was a totally innocent email, in response to his actions toward me. He manipulated me, he exploited my feelings, and then when I unknowingly caused two (apparently large?) narcissistic injuries, he filed the harassment claims. They were IMMEDIATELY after I caused the injuries, and I could tell by the cold, distant way he looked at me that this was the case. I didn't know much about NPD at the time, but I knew about the NI part and how vindictive they are. (Have known a few with "traits.")

I am just so thankful that I always put God and the church before anything that might happen between us. Thinking it was the real thing, I always wanted to be able to go to the congregation, when the time came, with a clean conscience and record. Most of all, I wanted the relationship to be right before God.

And God protected me because of that, I'm sure. I can't imagine what would have happened if I had agreed (or tried) to be alone with him, and if something physical had actually started. If I'm this of a much mess with "just" this experience, think what it would have been like if it had gone any further. He would have sexually abused me to who knows what length.

Ugh. There are just so many abuses involved with this whole thing. Multiple, multiple, multiple.

It's not the romantic part that hurts so much, it is the deep, deep betrayal and outrageous behavior of bringing harassment charges against me when he was actually harassing me -- and what's more, that it was my pastor doing it. I would not be having this much trouble if it had been just a regular guy, although that would have been nasty. It's the pastor thing (and longterm seeming friendship) that has me so out of whack. My therapist and fellow group members were outraged at the first instance of charges, much less the second.

What scares me is that I'm relatively certain that without their input, I would have become his total victim. I guess one positive thing that will come from this is that I will be much less likely to be manipulated or victimized in the future.

Talk about projection. Or projective identification, or whatever it is.

I'll tell you one thing -- we should all look at these media stories about pastoral affairs a little differently and with less judgement. that's a big thing I've learned. They are never about love or affection; they are ALWAYS about a misuse of power.

Well, there I went again with a long post.

Thank you Carolyn. Yet again I say what a good friend you are! How was your fourth?

[Certain Hope]

Dear Lily,

I understand completely now.... all of it...  thank you!

It's not the romantic part that hurts so much, it is the deep, deep betrayal and outrageous behavior of bringing harassment charges against me when he was actually harassing me -- and what's more, that it was my pastor doing it. I would not be having this much trouble if it had been just a regular guy, although that would have been nasty. It's the pastor thing (and longterm seeming friendship) that has me so out of whack. My therapist and fellow group members were outraged at the first instance of charges, much less the second.

Yes. This is the toughest part to overcome... even when N isn't in authority over you, but especially when he or she is in such a role.

Lily, I don't think he expected you to have the guts to stand up to him. Little did he know!
I am so glad you were able to stand firm, all the way through.

My ex-husband, when he sued me for contempt of court (after our divorce was final!) pulled alot of this same nonsense.
It really is scary how they seem to be so easily able to convince themselves of their purity.
Thank God they usually leave a trail of witnesses (and other targets) behind them who've seen the truth.
And, you know... it's been over 5 years and it really does fade.

You'll be able to attach new meaning and depth to alot of this in time... in a way which will help you and others...  and to detach from the stuff that only lets poison into your soul.
I'm sorry it's so very difficult for now. Hang in there.

Love,
Carolyn

[Ami]

Dear Lily
 I heard a few things that might be helpful . I heard you express  guilt and shame when you got angry ,for a legitimate reason. *I* understand this all too well. Anger is the hardest feeling for me to acknowlege AND express. I feel like the world will end when I get angry, that I will be rejected to the ends of the earth, ostracized, friendless, peopleless, a pariah. It feels horrible to be angry.
Then, IF *I* express it, I feel horrible guilt. I was taught well by an NM to be a traned monkey. My personna had to be "nice", compliant, "good" and all the rest of the shut down adjectives.
 Also, it is my impression that you still have strong feelings for the N pastor b/c he gave you a "parents" love which you have been so hungry for.
  I think you are hungry for tenderness , appreciation and love. I think the N pastor gave you this when it was "good" and you are hurting b/c you want to feel loved ,again. I so,so so understand, Lily.
 For me, I am trying to identify FOO feelings and feel them, so I can see the present as it is.Many times I am craving my M's love,but it SEEMS like a person's love.                  Love to you, Lily      Ami

[Hopalong]

Hi Lily,
I can so relate to this specific piece of the bludgeoned-by-a-ruthless-N puzzle:

it is the deep, deep betrayal and outrageous behavior of bringing harassment charges against me when he was actually harassing me

...that's exactly how I feel about my brother. He was a neglectful, indifferent son, so he accused me of being a bad caregiver... oh that crazy projection. UGH.

I also had a twinge in reading your posts, of another time, another experience. It may not fit at all, please compost if so, but I'm Having a Thought.

One of the VERY WORST aspects for me of trying to repair (or rebuild, or start from scratch) my sense of self after a lifetime's codependence with, enmeshment with, and attraction to Ns was:

finding out I could be invasive
finding out I can have severe boundary issues myself
finding out I can feel entitled and act entitled
finding out I'm really ***special***
finding out I can project these things I disown, with the best (or worst) of them

IOW, the shadow-N stuff. The N-spots. Given what a horror it was to discover what Nism is, and that my mother, brother and 90% of all my love relationships were Ns... it was a worse horror to begin very slowly to realize that I have those N-behavior qualities myself (not all, but some that are crystal clear). That I really do have them.

Ready for some good news? It took a couple years, but in confronting that directly and honestly and with a lot of love/compassion (especially from a spiritual genius former minister) ... I am completely okay with that. How the heck could I help but absorb some of that crap, parented as I was? The other parts of me are just as real as the lurking Nspots are, and what's more, I do finally really believe that my good stuff outweighs them.

The more compassion and acceptance of myself I learned to feel, oddly enough, the less I see or feel those Nspots stirring.

Putting my arms around the whole thing, including those parts of me and the role they had played in my relationships, took a lot of stretching.  I look like an R. Crumb character ambling down the sidewalk with my knuckles dragging.

I hope this isn't just a long meandering tangent-hijack, Lily...just for some reason your thread made me think of it.

love to you,
Hops

[LilyCat]

Thank you all, very much. Each of you is very helpful in your own, unique way. Put them all together and -- wow!!!! I so wish I could meet each of you! I would bake you a pie!! (Although the one I baked over the weekend wasn't my best. For some reason the bottom crust never baked. I think because I poked holes in it and the berry juice leaked through and essentially made dumplings out of it. But the top was great! I highly recommend pie crusts from Trader Joe's, if you live near one. This was the first time I'd tried one. Great!!!)

Hops, you always make me smile with the way you word things. What a gift you have! (Your unique little phrases.)

Anyway, don't have a lot of time now, but I just wanted to let you all know that I am doing MUCH better. MUCH better! We had a really group last night. A lot of stuff came out/up, my fellow groupmates were very helpful and generous. They really get the patience award, since they've been listening to this man's name and the experience for a year and a half now.

They really, really helped me, as have you. You've not only given me precious insight, each of you; you've given me courage when I most needed it. Thank you.

LC

(will try to write more later. Lots of work to do today.)