1st post - Does the N in your life have "friends"?

[MADDOG]

I've been lurking here a few weeks and know this is where I belong.  I diagnosed my Mother as N about a month ago.  It's sort of a relief to finally be able to know what is going on with her.  For so long I've felt like it must all be me, even though my inner self was telling me NO!.

My question is, how does an N have any true friends?  My Mom is surrounded by people - her phone is constantly ringing.  I know my Mom well enough to know that people must "see" the other side of her at some point.  She's always pointing out to me how much she is loved and how many friends call her, etc.  I just don' get it.

[Neko]

My N-mom has never managed to keep friends for any longer than a few years, with one exception: a woman who is extremely dependent on my mother for emotional support. They're like a textbook example of codependency.

I do know another N pretty well; my sister-in-law. She is always, always talking about her friends, saying "my friend so-and-so did such-and-such", on the phone to them constantly, and most annoyingly, she judges others on how many friends (she thinks) they have. Several years ago, when I'd only known her for a year or so (my husband and his entire family had warned me about her, to their credit), all of a sudden one day she went off on me about how I was a failure in life because I didn't make new friends easily. When in fact, I've simply never talked to her about my friends.

She makes "friends" very easily and uses their achievements and actions to her credit. It's hard to describe how, but she manages to brag about herself through her friends! Lately she's been going around the world: "I'm going to to [major city] to see my friend. Somehow I just make friends in such great places!" When she gets back she'll talk of nothing but her "friend" and how perfect they are. Yet she's never invited by the same friend twice.

People who don't know her very well think she's a fun-loving international socialite; people who truly know her stay away because they know better. Those who are currently her friends think she's the greatest and simply can't imagine how anyone could criticize her. It's almost comic when these friends visit her family, because her whole family knows she's an N, but they've turned dealing with her into an art form: ignoring her narcissistic nonsense and only engaging in neutral situations. So when she brings over friends, my family-in-law's normally relaxed, talkative atmosphere (what they're like when she's not around) turns into blasé silence.

I understand what you mean by not getting it... I mean, how can they find so many people to feed off of? How can people not see through it? Some seem to, but we don't know for certain since they're attached to her and no one else. She makes certain of that, and always blames separation on the others. I'm the first person unrelated to their family who's ever gotten to know her well and also stayed close to them. She started off by being sunny and carefree, very helpful, then began telling me how her parents couldn't stand having me around but didn't have the courage to tell me to my face, so she was taking a stand for them. "It would be best if you just left," she said one day, with a very serious, concerned look on her face.

She didn't count on me also seeing the hatred and hypocrisy in her voice and look, so familiar to me after being raised by an N mother. I approached her parents and politely asked if what she had told me was the truth, knowing it wasn't because I'd experienced acceptance and joy with them. Indeed, my SIL had lied through her teeth. So now I understand how it works: when Ns get tired of their plaything, they poison the well and have no qualms whatsoever about lying to get rid of their ex-friend as thoroughly as possible. It's as simple and disgustingly heartless as that.

That's great that you've found relief The "is it my fault?" feelings will stick around for a long time, but you've already learned the most important part: to listen to your inner self saying "NO!" Very well put!

[CC]

Hi Maddog,

Glad to see you joined us from the "lurks"    Good Luck in your healing journey.  

My Nmother had several "friends", but I use this very loosely as she is incapable of intimacy.  She has even admitted this.  All the people in her life that she considers friends are basically admirers from afar, she keeps them at arms length; they are the type of people that don't get too close anyway (astute, intellectual types).  She has never been able to communicate with men on any level other than in a flirtatious or controlling manner, including my father.  Since she never lets anyone "in", she never risks rejection so she makes herself safe.  And anyone that has actually risen to challenge her, she disengages from very quickly.  She has told me on many occasions that I am the person she is closest to, and she has told me things she would never tell anyone else.  The problem is, it is not true intimacy - it is unhealthy emmeshment.

My Nsister on the other hand, has completely alienated herself from all "friends" (as well as her family) as the years went by.  When she moved to a remote location in the south, she had one close friend there; then we found out they had a "falling out" and have not heard her talk about anyone else since.  The other two friends she had when she was younger, before marriage, she also had terrible fights with and they have not spoken for years (she insists it was something that they did to her, but noone in the family knows what).

She has managed to keep one friend from childhood over the years but she is in another state and they only see each other once a year.  They have had many fallouts as well but seem to manage to keep it together, I suspect because the other friend is equally dysfunctional (she is rather meek and needy, which is exactly the kind of person an N can get some needs met from as a foil).

To address your question specifically: NO, I don't think it is possible for a full-blown narcissist to have any TRUE friends - because they have denied their true selves.  I think the common denominator is that the people that stick around as "friends" of the N either are equally dysfunctional (codependent loyal N-ablers or N's themselves) or simply are not capable of true intimacy (not ever close enough to get hurt by the N) .  Just because the phone rings constantly and the N appears popular does not mean they are having true friendships with those people.  Any giving of "friendship" the N may offer would be most likely based on an expectation of something in return (admiration, connection to grandiosity, etc.).

Thanks for your contribution.  We look forward to hearing from you again.

[mary]

My N MIL tries to buy friends.  She used to give people things....like family antiques but  even that did not endear her to people.  I think she has no idea how to be a freind or even exactly what one is.   She has a friend now that she goes out to eat with but my MIL always pays for the meal.  Noone ever hangs around very long.

[Anna]

Welcome MadDog!  

In my family, no one was allowed friends.  I was allowed to play with other children outside only.  No one was really welcome in our home.  Too many secrets.  We rarely had any visitors, much less 'friends'.  My mother kept herself completely isolated.   I don't recall her EVER having a friend (or being friendly).  They were too below her I guess.  She never participated in any associations or organizations until much much later in her life.  In hingsight, it was terribly apparent that something was desperately wrong.

Thanks for bringing up the topic and again, welcome.

[Cathi]

Welcome Maddog!
The fact that you wondered if you could have a problem tells me that you don't. Ns are NEVER the problem! Why they wouldn't even consider it All ACONs have probably wondered if the problem lies with them at one time or another. It's only natural, seeing as how narcissists have such strange behavior. I always had a heck of a time trying to explain it to people. Even if I could explain it, normal people have a difficult time believing it. Who could blame them? If one didn't grow up in a Nhome, they wouldn't have a clue. Many so called professionals don't even seem to get it. I am 48 and just really beginning to figure it out myself.
My Nmom never had many friends. The ones she had she used. She moved to a different state some years back, and both my aunt (her sister) and I felt like a giant weight had been lifted from our chests! I cut her out of my life off and on over the years, but for good five years ago. My poor aunt gets phone calls from my Nmom's neighbors now and then complaining about how bizarre she is. The whole family has never been supportive of me for alienating her. I told them five years ago, that no matter WHAT happens to her, she's their responsibility. I didn't make any friends over that, but I FEEL BETTER!
The older my Nmom gets, the more bizarre her behavior gets. It seems to me that it's harder for them to control their idiosynchrocies as they age. Don't know about you, but my Nmom is a very intelligent woman--intelligent enough to KNOW she has a problem! Why else would they alienate themselves from people and try so hard to hide it?
Good luck on your journey of discovery. Surround yourself with loving people. The pastor of my church once told me to "find a family of choice." I thought that was so odd at the time, but that's exactly what I did! And guess what? They're better than my original family by far!
Hugs,
Cathi

[clara]

My parents are both narcissisits.  No, they don't have any true friends. they can make friends, they just can't hang on to them. Very sad, because they are both extraverted and they try very, very hard to connect with people. They go out of their way to make new friends, joining clubs, talking to people in their apt building, phoning up old friends and acquaintences.

As deparate and as lonely as they are, though, they simply don't get how they violate the basic rules for making and keeping friends:

They just talk about themselves.

They control the coversation, deciding the topics, and dominating the conversational time.

They only listen to others for purposes of strategizing, to jump in with something about themselves.

They brag -- mostly about inflated accomplishments.

They tell long-winded jokes that aren't really funny -- and then they laugh shamelessly at their own jokes.

They don't really have a favourite topic -- they just prefer anything that gives them a chance to complain and show their superiority.

They backstab shamelessy.

They lecture and give advice ad nauseum.

They always have the final say on matters of opinion.

They show nc concern for others -- That is because they have no capacity to care for others beyond what the others can do for them.

In others words, to borrow from some famous saying:

My parents would never ask what THEY can do for a friend, but only what THEIR FRIENDS can do for them.

My Nhusband has no friends either, but that is another issue for me that is quite painful.  So I think I'll start another thread on the shame and embarrassment that those us feel when we socialize with our Npartners.

[Anonymous]

My N MIL likes to talk about what she wants to talk about and that is about all.  I have seen her talk and talk and then if someone else says something you can see her not listening to them but thinking about what she is going to say.   She has gotten a little better at listening now that she is getting old...but her favorite subject is still her.

[mary]

Sorry, I forgot to sign in.  THe above post is from me...Mary.

[MADDOG]

You guys responded like I knew you would. My N mom gets a "glazed over" look to her when someone else is speaking, already formulating what she has to say.  I've wondered so much while I was younger why I had a sense of feeling invisible.  Now as an adult I realize that it is because my N mom couldn't let me speak, stand, or be anything without her interjecting on me how I felt, how I should feel.  As young as 2 yrs. old I vividly remember being tod by my N mom that I had better "speak up or peope will think you're retarded."   It's no wonder that at age 42 I still feel insecure and am scared that I am being judged when I speak.  She silenced me for a long time.
My N mom also seems to hold "friends" as hostages, and only keeps close to them if they agree with her.  But boy, can she stab even the closest ones in the back if they actually have a life without her.
Will post later about guilt and how she loves to manipulate me by using it.
Thanks for all your posts.

[CC]

Dear Maddog,

Your post made me laugh out loud.  I am certainly not making fun of the pain that comment must have caused you, but thanks for the grins.  So how does it feel to be retarded? Amazing the things the Ns come up with. Hugs

[MADDOG]

CC:  Listen. I've had to laugh in order not to cry to finally be able to let myself off m N mom's hook.  So no, I can't blame you at all for laughing.  I literally could/may write a book on being raised by her.  I'm just thankful to know that it's so her, and not me.  She's a real trip and the only one who doesn't know it!!  

Looking forward to sharing with you again!

[Cathi]

Maddog:
My brother is mentally retarded. He was braindamaged at birth. Sometimes I wonder...Anyway, Nmom constantly used to throw in my face that it could've been me. I think she wished it was. I, like,you, thought about writing a book. Then I thought better of it. Who would want to read about all that pain?
Cathi

[MADDOG]

Cathi, yes my N mom caused me a lot of pain, but looking back on it now I see how "retarded" her own behavior was and it is downright hysterically funny some of the things she did/does.  I have also distanced myself 500 miles from her, so granted, I don't have to see her except on occasion, but do hear from her quite often by phone.  When I can come up with some good examples of the riduculous stuff she put me and my sister through, I will share more!  

[Tinkergirl]

hi maddog,  welcome!

reading all the responses has really opened my eyes to the spectrum of bizarre 'friendships' and N can define in her life. my mother is absolutely swarming with 'friends' who are seemingly oblivious to the fact that everything is all about her.  or they just think it is part of her personality, and they admire it because my mother chooses 'friends' who are very very dependent on her enthusiasm for herself.  she has severely overweight friends (my mom is anorexic), she has divorced, co-dependent friends who admire her sexual exuberance (fueled by unchecked ego), very elderly neighbors (who can't thank her enough for all the attention she gives them), and gay men (who think she is just the ultimate in arm candy).   and she will tell you how much she is loved by each and every one of them.

funny part is, all of her close family relationships are horribly riddled with problems...those who really know her best behind closed doors do not admire let alone respect this N monster who has no capacity for empathy.
her children have cut off and/or distanced themselves from her, her husband has imploded into a silent workaholic, her in-laws dislike her and in fact shun her from events, she doesn't speak with her brother....etc.  to me this is the telltale sign that the N gains her fuel and momentum from those 'friends' who know her when she is on her best behavior at lunch, the movies, or quick visits.  these are the same friends who have assured her she has been the best mother she could be, and how could she have such an ungrateful daughter (me) for cutting her out of my life?  they are all accomplices in this wicked N game they play.  take care.