Variou$ woe$ and some happine$$ too

[debkor]

Hoppy,

I'm sitting here tapping my fingers and thinking. 

I'm thinking about the extreme from the mountain climbing to the homeless living and not giving a care if he lived or died.   And in some way pushing everything to the extreme.  Hops this is not normal. 

Like he got a high Really high and a Low Really Low from both...being really up there HIGH feeling Good...and then really down....Low feeling really Low....and to the extreme....

Yet you say his drinking may go over board but he's not quiet Bombed Out All the Time....so he does what..some balance...not too much and not too little...

And you...he can balance and not push...not too much ..not too little.....yet he is extreme with what he is talking about to you....which has to do with his feeling...High's and Low's in his life...

Now I am asking myself ...Why does he want you to know all this?  Too much information?  I would say so.  So soon?

Is this about Shock?  Is this about your reaction?  Or does he get the highs and the lows even talking about it....I'm confused too  Hoppy. 

Does it have to do with his father?  Who knows...possibly...but I do think there are some very deep issues....

It almost seems to me that he can go...and I'm not doctor....but manic/depressive?  I don't know Hops I don't know him and I don't know anything about the disorder...I'm just talking out my butt and thinking....

But my thoughts are of fear that this man may have some serious problems... I don't know...

I mean you don't have to think he is a good man or a bad man but he may be a very very troubled man.  You know I don't know what the hell I'm taking about but I am thinking... that I don't know what I'm thinking....but I am...

Oh boy I sound nuts now.

He very well might be a nice man but it's not your inner innocent that will get messed up with all those images he planted in your mind....Innocent has nothing to do with it.....

Something is way OFF.....and the over drinking is in your face and something you don't want to get involved into if it was only just that....  You have heard his past, you are seeing his present...don't forget your seeing over drinking...and you know not the future...

Be carefull ......you can be friends....and I would not make a move other then that....Now.

Love
Deb

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Deb. I agree.
I am really grateful for your caution, the way you're urging me to use my Big-Girl Math.

He really does have serious problems. He has wonderful insights, too, from his "Time in the Wilderness." I think friend is a fine word and I will stay grateful for the friendship and company, and let the fantasizing go. That feels saner.

My own problem is that people with serious problems are more interesting to me. So I have to be wary of my choices.

Like RD Laing said...maybe crazy people in this culture are really sane, because how could one live in this culture and really see it, see it clearly every day and what it does to people and to animals and to earth...and not be crazy, while the rest of us are humming, thinking The Way We Live is THE Way TO Live.

So the poet in me knows the mountain climber, the sculptor, the gardener-rebel, the philosopher...these are my kindred spritits.

The worn-out post-middle aged caregiver in me who's trying desperately to find a 2nd job, sell her car, and hold on to her home ... needs somebody pretty solid in my life. So maybe Gennulmen will become a solid friend. And I might be to him, as well.

That is a gift, too. Not with the ribbons and fanfare I still dream of sometimes. But it's a gift to find a new friend.

You're right, Deb. I need to cool it. And see if I can enjoy it staying...cool.

He is not the person I need to take the Big Risks with.

love,
Hops

[lighter]

(((Hops)))

Well done.

Lighter

[Hopalong]

I feel sad about Gennulman.

I did some reading today, and despite the ferocious polemics of some writers who defend stripping as empowering, it is so obvious to me that in the majority of cases, women who perform this way are re-enacting childhood sexual abuse.

I don't understand how a nice, gentle, kind, generous person can "take" from them then, even as a visual feast (much less the quasi-intimacy of a lap dance)...and still be "good"? I definitely understand the empowering aspect of earning good money -- god knows that IS feminist. And one book delved into how perhaps it could be healing for some strippers who maintain control and constantly challenge the audience to confront their humanity. But oh what a price.

I don't mean this as "these women are bad" and I understand why some sex workers are angry at being thought of as victims. They don't want to be.

This is what you were pointing out, CB. I do have a B & W brain, and I struggle not to judge him for it. The turth is though, the power of the performer over the audience is short-lived. He can go on with his acceptable equal-paying life without penalty. She goes on to age, be eliminated from "attractiveness", and in the meantime has not acquired skills that will translate over into a good career.

So I am angry at the men. Not the women. That may not be fair, as some mean Narcissistic and exploitative women no doubt wind up on the stage, acting out loathing of men. But in the main...I can't see the male audience in a forgiving light.

We are NOT OBJECTS, dammit. Even when we act as though we believe we are.

I just don't get it. I know he's a nice person based on his behavior toward me. Unfortunately, his overdisclosures have implanted a different image of him in my mind...

I don't think I can shake it off. It's a sad, pathetic, travesty to me.

I've never understood men -- or any viewer, female also -- and pornography. I do not understand how you avoid thinking about the actual life of the actual person.

Sigh. I'm having dinner with him Friday and he's going to a wedding at my church with me Saturday.

I feel sour about it. I feel like recoiling. I feel JUDGMENTAL.

I guess I will just have to feel what I feel and observe it, and see what I learn from it.

thanks for listening,
Hops

[Hopalong]

Then again, what's wrong with recoiling?

Maybe I should just accept "this ain't for me" and set some new distance?

I feel strange. As a church person, he's a member of my "beloved community."

So I can't reject his humanity any more than I think the sex industries reject the participants'.

Oh ick.

Sigh,
Hops

[gjazz]

Well, there's a difference between being judgmental and using your judgment.  You listened to him.  You treated him with respect and he treated you the same.  He was honest, you were honest.  You don't have to reject his humanity.  You also don't have to share intimate areas of your life with someone who seems to set a lower value on such issues.  There's nothing wrong with that.  There's everything RIGHT with that.

[Hopalong]

Thanks, Gjazz...

I appreciate it.

I guess I'm just feeling the loss of another "dream" that was fantasy based.

But this time, I stayed on my feet! 

Hops

[gjazz]

Most dreams are fantasy based.  Some translate better into real life than others, that's all.

Yep, right there on your feet.

[Ami]

 I remember Scott telling me that some guys from school and he went to a strip club. He thought about the girls being s/ones D or M and hated seeing them exploited .
          Ami

[sKePTiKal]

Hops, you're digging really deeply into this topic - your own feelings as well as the significance in the relationship with Gennulman Friend, so I hope you won't mind what might seem like a digression.

What are your feelings regarding Michaelangelo's David? Famous paintings of nude women AND men? What are your feelings about whether nudes depicted in art are appropriate in public buildings? Is art that contains nudes - and solely for that reason - pornography; or are there specific circumstances where the answer would YES, definitely and NO, definitely? What pushes a work, in one direction or another?

What about Anne Geddes photos of her own nude children? Paeon to beauty & innocence or pornography?

I've been involved in discussions of this very topic for years - in art school, online with other artists, and defending my own work involving nudes. It's quite involved - and very, very personal. Over the years, I've learned that every individual has their own boundary-definitions about when a work of art becomes pornographic - when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else.

There absolutely isn't a "right" or "wrong" opinion, definition, or viewpoint and there damn sure isn't any general social consensus, anymore - the supreme court's clause of "socially agreed upon standards of decency" notwithstanding (I've never really seen anyone define these stds of decency, except case by case).

There is only what works for YOU and ya know what? That might change case by case, too. Trust the force, Jedi Warrior!  If something about this bothers you... distance, boundaries, watch, wait & see... you don't have to decide - once and for all - right now, do you?

[Hopalong]

Oh CB, my heart breaks for that child. The traditional Chinese culture's attitudes toward girls chills me just as much as the Middle Eastern...at least most little Middle Eastern girls have a chance at life. In China, particularly rural China, many are still murdered at birth. The worst thing I ever learned about China was that there are still vestigial "baby towers" in rural areas. These are tall hollow structures, usually made of rock, where a parent would take a newborn girl baby, alive, and drop her in...because a girl was a girl, unwanted. Your friends are so close to that history. Just as close as Southern American racists who do violence to black people are to their history of slave owning...

I wish I could take her in. If I had the money, I'd beg for the chance.

You are brave to stand before that reality and not crumble.

I am so glad your fella knows how to love...more importantly, how to respect. I think some men fear women so much that they confuse respecting a woman with losing their respect for themselves. Affirming you...that's wonderful. And that's what I want too. It's a relief to reach a place inside myself where I realize -- he may say he is unapologetic, but this is not negotiable for me. I am not looking for him to feel SHAME ... but I wonder. If I weren't ashamed of some of my thoughts and behaviors, what would have motivated me to change them? Maybe I have shame in a limiting box, too.

In the battle to survive an N parent I have identified shame as an enemy. But that too is an extreme. I remember a distinction -- it's not any feelings of guilt or shame that are destructive. It's the distinction between guilt and TOXIC shame. Guilt says, I have made a mistake, and want to make what amends I can. Toxic shame says, I am the mistake.

I don't think Gennulman is a mistake at all. There's a lot to like and admire in him. But I can't help it, I think he has made a mistake by training himself to be blase and even proud about strolling on the steamy side of the sidewalk, without asking himself what is my contribution to the direction of these women's lives, what do I enable by spending my money here?

This blends in with thoughts about Amber's questions...I'll continue there.

Thank you, CB. Your thoughtfulness is radiant, clear, and so so helpful.

much love,
Hops

[Hopalong]

I really appreciate your questions, Amber...and I'm glad to be digging in to the topic. Anything that sheds light and eases pain in this area is very very good for me to unearth. I bet CB is right, that Gennulman is in my life for a reason. I'm already sensing a gift ... permission to explore, turn things over. The upside of his eagerness to talk about such things is that it allows me to talk back. I find in narrating some, my own experience becomes more clear.

boundary-definitions about when a work of art becomes pornographic - when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else.

boundary-definitions about when a work of art becomes pornographic - when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else.

Classical nudes don't bother me at all. Nudes in art don't bother me at all. They're often beautiful, or disturbing, or thought provoking. And the body is beautiful. I once worked as a naive nude model. Very early in the morning, a commercial artist would pick me up at my college dorm, drive me to his studio and sketch me while I sat there nude. I remember a mild sense of power, though I didn't really know what it was about. Over time I began to understand that this had to do with his life. He was Catholic, married, many children. I doubt very much that his wife knew he spent two mornings a week sketching a naked 20 year old. Once the penny dropped, and I realized he was doing it for gratification in some way (though he never behaved inappropriately nor touched me) -- I became instantly aversive, and quit. (It was the best hourly pay I'd ever earned though.)

I feel like parsing this:

when the "beauty" definition of one person (artist) is seen as exploitive, lewd, disgusting, and not fit for public consumption - taboo - by someone else

All I care about is the exploitive part. I am not worried about judging lewd, disgusting, or public decency. I am VERY worried about the exploitation in the dancers' past or present lives. I am angry that the culture still measures women this way, so that so many dancers do it because they cannot imagine their way to a full education, a career with intellectual satisfaction (that's a form of power) and economic justice (that's a form of power) and security (that's a form of power) and education for their children (a form of power) and access to health care (a form of power) and affordable housing (a form of power).

All of it is about power OVER. And though naked dancers definitely exploit back, and experience short-term earning power and in some cases pscyhological power ... I believe many of them, over a life, LOSE their chance for healthy positive power and strength ... the chance to build strong, healthy lives for themselves. There are exceptions in the media, and pole dancing classes, and now it's becoming just as popularized and absorbed into the culture as porn has become.

I grieve this. I love the human body. It's beautiful. But who knows...those models in classical times weren't exactly women with jobs, were they? Did they earn enough money to have homes, jobs, healers, opportunities?

So in a way I thnk our tolerance (as a culture) of the sex industries is skewed toward a debate about freedom. When for me, the debate is about economic power. Mostly.

It's not about nudity, for me. It's about the USING of nakedness. I spent a week at a nude beach in France and loved it. We all were equal under the sun: old young male female beautiful ordinary fat thin tall short gorgeous scarred average.

In the same way that eating food is an animal need, so is sex. We don't charge starving children money when we hand them a bowl of gruel. Why is money involved when women starving for money or power or sexual healing dance naked? Maybe if it all were free, and business/industry/bosses/ownership/tipping fees were eliminated ... no in fact, CERTAINLY if it weren't a transaction ... then I probably wouldn't feel this way. It would be a cultural ritual then, like a particular kind of parade.

I'm avoiding some paperwork I must tackle. Thanks again for the thoughtful questions.

love
Hops

[gjazz]

I wonder if all gennulman is really doing is seeking out company where he's sure not to be rejected or judged for any/all perceived "failures" in his life.  After all, here in America we put great stock in a person's job (none) home (none) family (none).  Mainstream women are likely to be a hard sell in terms of a relationship, and fair enough.  But strippers are all business and making men feel good about themselves is how they pay the bills.  So for someone who doesn't feel good about himself, it's safe and helps a little, anyway, provided he doesn't think too hard about it.  And in my opinion, someone who claims to know a bunch of these women and respect them, and says that they all feel good about what they are doing and empowered or whatever...just don't buy it.  Sounds too superficial, like a line.  These women are as individual and complex as any of us.

Not sure, Hops, if he's still going to these clubs.  But you know your heart, it's sometimes hard not to ignore what it is trying to say, but you know what's best for you.  And if it changes, it changes.

[ann3]

Hops,

What I have learned is that every individual we meet comes with a slew of variables, experiences & values and we may not understand those variables, experiences & values because they are so foreign to us.  So, even though he has treated you well, his values & experiences may be so different from yours to the point where you cannot comprehend him.  And that's OK.  You are not dehumanizing him, but rather just (possibly) concluding that he is not a love match.  And that's OK. 

I know what you mean about the dream dying before it began & the sadness that causes, but we move on with the knowledge that (1) there's no price Charming on a white horse, only fallible, imperfect human beings, (2) there's always the possibility for companionship & love & (3) if nothing else, these experiences are like holding a mirror up to ourselves, so that we can learn about ourselves.

I think it's great that you're really dissecting this experience.  Gennulman is a blessing in disguise because the experience is helping you to sort out what you want/don't want and to examine your feelings when you feel ambiguity or negativity.  So, this is good!

For me, nudity in art is beauty and humanness, whereas strip clubs generally exploit desperate women.

For me, the homelessness, alcoholism & sharing too much info about strip clubs & past relationships are red flags.   You deserve way better. 

I apologize for being so opinionated, but, do you think  your caregiving for your mother is leaking into other relationships?  To me, kinda sounds like this guy needs a caregiver & perhaps he senses that you can fulfill that role, plus, you have been conditioned to fulfill that role?  If you agree, what if you role played a bit & dropped the role of caregiver for a bit, just as an experiment?  What would your world feel like if you just caregived to Hops & no one else?  Again, forgive me if I'm off target.

But, big picture:  I think analysing this experience is growth inducing & I think you can learn a lot from the experience of knowing this chap.

xoxo,
ann

[sKePTiKal]

Thanks Hops, for responding to the questions so honestly and in-depth! I appreciate this kind of dialogue on these types of topics.

I'm glad you separated the exploitation from the other issues and I pretty much agree with you about economic power vs freedom, on this topic. That gets me 'round to wondering... how much cultural acceptance of the sex industry - with a side-dish of shame attached to it... for the women ONLY (not the male customers)... is still slanted toward the pre-feminist/sexual revolution stereotypes. As if society couldn't quite get unstuck here.

Male strip clubs for women aren't perceived or judged in quite the same way - culturally - are they? Neither the performers, nor the customers... what's that all about?

And the next thing that brings up for me is the flip side of power - risk... physical, emotional, economic, social and other forms of risk inherent in the exploitation. Given both a female and a male stripper - the risks don't seem quite equal to me. It seems - it feels - as though the risks are much higher and likely more life-affecting for women, than for men performers.